PJ never acknowledges original actors

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PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby SaturnR » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:52 pm

He always says - we had cast another actor but he was wrong or another actor was cast but he had to leave for personal reasons. Why so mysterious? Why not acknowledge that this person actually had a name & was some ways into pre-production or even during the production itself before they were replaced?
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Gorthaur the Cruel » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:25 pm

SaturnR wrote:He always says - we had cast another actor but he was wrong or another actor was cast but he had to leave for personal reasons. Why so mysterious? Why not acknowledge that this person actually had a name & was some ways into pre-production or even during the production itself before they were replaced?

The impression I get (are you referring to the Appendices?) is that he doesn't want to deflect attention from the final choice, especially because that actor wasn't his first choice. For all I know, though, there may be a standard clause in an actor's contract for this situation.

Twould be amusing if he said, "we did have another director in mind at first, but that didn't work out so instead we got me to do it."
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Old_Begonia » Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:30 am

Yeah, I mean, it would be kinda tacky, dontcha think, to say, "Well, we got started with ___________ in the role, but something came up and he had to leave so we had to settle for..."
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Arlaug » Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:37 pm

It wouldn't make sense at all. All of them, actors and actresses, by chance or through focused auditioning (meaning they didn't start as Sam and ended up like Pip) met their roles. It's the role that chooses an actor not the other way around. Once you've seen the movies, even if you have felt that Somebody Else would do a better job as Aragorn, it's somewhat difficult to transfer the face now. Or, in that particular case, the direcor (Peter or any other) would diminish the importance of an actor saying he wasn't their first choice.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Drogo Baggins » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:00 am

I believe this is common practice across the movie industry....the actor who leaves a role before completion doesn't get credit for it later. It's not PJ...it's the business.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby oldtoby » Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:22 pm

Forget it Saturn...its Chinatown.



:wink:
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby original wombat » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:51 pm

oldtoby wrote:Forget it Saturn...its Chinatown.



:wink:

:D
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Frodome » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:42 am

Would you really doubt Jackson's start cast? His final team worked perfectly. All the actors put their souls in their characters. Martin Freeman is perfect Bilbo. Ian Mckellen is perfect Gandalf. Are you sure you're right in your own argument?
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby solicitr » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:54 pm

Elijah Wood was all wrong for Frodo.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Gorthaur the Cruel » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:24 am

solicitr wrote:Elijah Wood was all wrong for Frodo.

I think the writers de-Frodoed Frodo to a degree and he was mostly just dragged along. I always felt Elijah Wood could have done more given half a chance and where Frodo remained (e.g. the taming of Sméagol) I thought he was okay.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Frodome » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:35 am

solicitr wrote:Elijah Wood was all wrong for Frodo.

I don't know why you'd think so. Elijah was perfect Frodo. In fact, after having read books, I like movies because of the actors, and Elijah is also one of them. If I'm not wrong, he was youngest of all, and had to portray the toughest character. He's to blame for not having read the books. Sean Astin read them, and Sam in the movies was so close to the book canon. Ian Mckellen had read the books, and his Gandalf was close to book too.
I don't think you could doubt their acting skills, any of them. Elijah is also a good actor, and did what he was asked to do. At fault: Writers=80% & Elijah=20%.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby siddharth » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:14 am

I think Elijah vastly improved over the films. He was at his weakest in FotR (and also, the wriers made him out as a wimp in it), while the best Frodo-moments are all from RotK. The recollection of Shire at Mt.Doom, the end of all things, the epilogue narration etc.
Imo Elijah depicted Frodo's Christ-figure very near the mark. But they (whether 'they' be he or the writers) missed out on the more hobbity aspect of him.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby BerenVonRictoffen » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:45 pm

Probably because of shady business-dealings. For example, Arwen was originally intended to be played by Kate Winslett, but they chose Liv Tyler supposedly "to advance her film-career" (*cough* her dad invested $10 million in the film *cough*). :nono:
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby solicitr » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:26 pm

Elijah was a doll-faced naif, hardly the middle-aged, rather intellectual bachelor Tolkien wrote.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Frodome » Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:25 pm

solicitr wrote:Elijah was a doll-faced naif, hardly the middle-aged, rather intellectual bachelor Tolkien wrote.

That's not his fault. His age thing, I don't think, it should be a question of bashing Elijah anymore. Hobbits live longer and age differently than Men do. Frodo recieves the Ring at his 33rd birthday, he stops aging, as is indicated in the book too. So he'd still look hobbity 33 and human 18-21 years old. Entire way to Mordor, he has the Ring, so he can't look older. If you're talking about his courage, yes, it was downplayed in the movies, but for that Elijah is not responsible. He could not speak his own dialogs or create his own scenes.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby solicitr » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:32 pm

Frodome wrote:So he'd still look hobbity 33 and human 18-21 years old.


Wrong. But even if that were true, and it isn't, Frodo would still have the mind, experience and maturity of a 50-year old.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Eucatastrophe » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:33 pm

solicitr wrote:Elijah was a doll-faced naif, hardly the middle-aged, rather intellectual bachelor Tolkien wrote.


Why the focus on the looks? Criticise the characterisation as much as you want, as I do.

The Cumberbatch's Holmes looks much younger than the book but does feel like it.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Voronwe_the_Faithful » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:42 pm

In point of fact, the looks are relatively accurate, as Frodo is described in the book as maintaining the appearance of a Hobbit just out of his tweens, which (at least arguably) would be equivalent to a human just out of his teens. It is the characterization that should more closely approximate the middle-aged intellectual bachelor, not the looks.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby solicitr » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:18 pm

the appearance of a Hobbit just out of his tweens, which (at least arguably) would be equivalent to a human just out of his teens.


Again, not so. But you're right: the characterization was all wrong, because movie-Frodo was both written and acted like a teenager.

----------------------------

Incidentally, in A Study in Scarlet, where Holmes and Watson first meet, the detective was about 27-- so Cumberbatch at 35 was by no means too young.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Frodome » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:26 pm

solicitr wrote:
Frodome wrote:So he'd still look hobbity 33 and human 18-21 years old.


Wrong. But even if that were true, and it isn't, Frodo would still have the mind, experience and maturity of a 50-year old.

Age thing is right. Sam retired at the age of 96. Merry went to Rohan when he was 102 years old, and Pip was, IIRC, 96 by then. So, it is true that Hobbits definitily have longer life than Men. Hobbits' coming of age is 33. Men's is 18-21. So, Frodo wouldn't look older than any other hobbits(in fact, he'd look younger than Sam and Merry).
Maturity and experience. Yes, you're right. But that's not Elijah's fault. He did what he was given to. If he had read the books, Frodo would have been better than he was(though, I don't feel you can actually put a character like Frodo on screen at all). I think, I shouldn't even blame the writers for that. Book Frodo is himself like this. :D
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby solicitr » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:59 pm

it is true that Hobbits definitily have longer life than Men.


But don't mature or age any more quickly. Their long lifespans are a function of inherent toughness, and what Tolkien considered a healthy lifestyle. The 33 thing is Tolkien's little joke- don't you get that? The college professor's observation that as a sensible folk, the Shire-hobbits wouldn't pretend young people in their 20s were "adults."
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Eucatastrophe » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:08 pm

solicitr wrote:
the appearance of a Hobbit just out of his tweens, which (at least arguably) would be equivalent to a human just out of his teens.


Again, not so. But you're right: the characterization was all wrong, because movie-Frodo was both written and acted like a teenager.


Atleast backup your argument with a reason. Disagreeing does not make a discussion.

Incidentally, in A Study in Scarlet, where Holmes and Watson first meet, the detective was about 27-- so Cumberbatch at 35 was by no means too young.


Not a question of how old they are, but how old they look. BC looks in his late 20s in BBC. And A study in scarlet is not by any means the only Holmes story.
Anyway, that's a gap of 8 years, approxly ten. Elijah Wood was-I think-19 when he began and 21 (?) when he finished with RotK all in all. Frodo has to be 33. An age gap of ten.

Bear in mind, Frodo is also described to be more Elvish in appearance than rest of the hobbits, fairest of them all. Wood fits that.

solicitr wrote: The 33 thing is Tolkien's little joke- don't you get that?


That seems a bit rude...
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Frodome » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:55 pm

solicitr wrote:
it is true that Hobbits definitily have longer life than Men.


But don't mature or age any more quickly. Their long lifespans are a function of inherent toughness, and what Tolkien considered a healthy lifestyle. The 33 thing is Tolkien's little joke- don't you get that? The college professor's observation that as a sensible folk, the Shire-hobbits wouldn't pretend young people in their 20s were "adults."

Pippin, who is in his late 20s(29 yrs.), tells Bergil that he is more than a boy in the Shire-reckoning, is the evidence of their 'slow aging', if this is the word.
Eucatastrophe wrote:that's a gap of 8 years, approxly ten. Elijah Wood was-I think-19 when he began and 21 (?) when he finished with RotK all in all. Frodo has to be 33. An age gap of ten.
Bear in mind, Frodo is also described to be more Elvish in appearance than rest of the hobbits, fairest of them all. Wood fits that.

Will agree with you here. He has an elvish air, and looks elvish. Because of the Ring's possession, he'd stop aging, and look 33. The only problem with the movie Frodo is his characterization, as someone else said so, not Elijah Wood or his acting.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby heliona » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:30 am

I think judging people on how old they look is rather difficult, because different people the same age look like they are different ages, due to many things, such as how difficult their life has been, or where they lived. I know people who are ten years older than me that look younger. I personally don't think that BC looked in his late 20s in the first BBC Sherlock story, but perceiving how old people look can be very subjective.

Unless there are vast age differences between actor and character, I really think that any criticism should be aimed at the characterisation of said character, not whether they looked the right age or not.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby BerenVonRictoffen » Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:07 pm

solicitr wrote:Elijah was a doll-faced naif, hardly the middle-aged, rather intellectual bachelor Tolkien wrote.


You have to realize that most artists are fairly semi-literate and right-brained, and construe things out of their own often-limited world-view, without reading between the lines... or even reading the lines between themselves, ignoring context completely. For example, artists will read "demon" and immediately the traditional Gothic gargoyle-type images spring to mind with t and ram's head as a "balrog;" likewise, all Ents become Huorns; and once these impressions spring up, there's no going back.
It's the same with Frodo going from a younger version of Chris Tolkien(if he were a short fat midget), to a rangy Shirley-Templeish looking scamp with the big Disney-eyes and expression of a confused puppy.
Thus, rather than bother caring what the author wanted, PJ he just saw Elijah Wood's submission-tape, and said "THAT'S OUR HITLER!"
(They could have at least put a fat-suit on him for the first part of the movie.)
But if you want to discuss the mistakes in the this film, second actor-choices are about the last place I'd start.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Eucatastrophe » Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:10 pm

I gather that means Frodo must be depicted fatter?
Not quite, no.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Frodome » Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:53 pm

Eucatastrophe wrote:I gather that means Frodo must be depicted fatter?
Not quite, no.

um.. No. Not fatter. He is said to be "Taller than some." And, I don't recall anywhere anyone say that he is as fat as the other Hobbits.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Eucatastrophe » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:19 pm

Yes, that is what I am saying.
And in any case hobbits are NOT fat. They are stout and healthy but fat is not a defining feature of hobbits.
And Frodo, atleast for my visualization, is quite thin relatively.
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby Frodome » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:53 pm

Eucatastrophe wrote:Yes, that is what I am saying.
And in any case hobbits are NOT fat. They are stout and healthy but fat is not a defining feature of hobbits.
And Frodo, atleast for my visualization, is quite thin relatively.

Bilbo is said to be Fat in the chapter when they arrive Rivendell (don't know what further happens. Haven't read forth). Healthy is the right word. But, they eat SIX times a day. How can they not be fat, I wonder? :P
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Re: PJ never acknowledges original actors

Postby solicitr » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:48 am

Frodo was I think a more mature individual at the start of his journey than Bilbo was at his (and I'm sure Tolkien very deliberately made them the same age). Bilbo was in a lot of ways very childish, or child-like, when he set out, whereas Frodo (largely thanks to Bilbo of course) was aware of the wider world, schooled in the Elvish tongues and had a grasp, even if incomplete, of history. He is wiser and more 'longheaded' than his companions, even if he is outdone in down-to-earth pragmatism by the practical Merry. He is unquestionably the leader of what are constantly referred to as "the younger Hobbits"- he is NOT a wide-eyed child, characterized by constant confusion and shock the way PBJ wrote him and Elijah played him-- although the former of course had a lot to do with the latter, not least in denying Filmrodo all agency throughout FR and making him mere luggage.

(And then in the Hobbit flicks PBJ gets it wrong again, since Bilbo up to Mirkwood really was just luggage).
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