Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

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Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Laineth » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:51 pm

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Last edited by Laineth on Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby jotnar » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:01 pm

Laineth wrote:All the pieces are still there. All the “events” - Gollum's near redemption, the slow corruption of Frodo, Frodo and Sam being separated by Gollum – are still there. They're just rearranged a little bit.


That reminds of a classic sketch from The Morecambe and Wise Show, with guest Andre Previn.

"I'm playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order." :D
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Gorthaur the Cruel » Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:18 am

Nice.

This is the first time I've ever seen something positive posted about the "Go home, Sam" moment.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Gorthaur the Cruel » Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:37 am

Double post - please delete.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby jotnar » Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:06 pm

Gorthaur, I see you posted instead of editing in your desire to correct a certain impression...

There is no defence of Sam's sojurn in a rational world. :D

And just in case it is missed, the whole point regarding Previn and Morecombe is that, whilst it maybe true that the notes are correct, unless they are played in the right order they are not Grieg.

This is one of the problems with Jackson; he lifts motifs that are immediately recognisable, then lays them down in an order that, ultimately, lessens the original. He is a fiddler who saws away at the strings, hitting this note and that note occassionally, but with the beauty of those tones drowned by the general caterwauling.

To me, of course. :)
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Gorthaur the Cruel » Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:41 pm

jotnar wrote:Gorthaur, I see you posted instead of editing in your desire to correct a certain impression...

Yes (I pressed 'quote' instead of 'edit' and didn't notice till too late). The sentiment still stands but I thought the expression was vapid.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Diamond of Long Cleeve » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:35 am

jotnar wrote:This is one of the problems with Jackson; he lifts motifs that are immediately recognisable, then lays them down in an order that, ultimately, lessens the original.


I do agree with this. This doesn't happen all the time in PJ's LotR, but it does happen.

Laineth and Gorthaur - please note that I enjoyed the films and don't have much time for PJ-bashing. I'm all for rigorous critique, not for ascribing nefarious motives to PJ, who did a grand job in many ways. What we got could have been so much worse in many other directors' hands.

But this is one of those scenes that I think inferior to canon. This is a powerful scene in the book, one of the most haunting - Gollum's near-repentance on the stairs of Cirith Ungol. It is intrinsically cinematic. It's heart-breaking. It's great, great drama. And instead of that, PJ gave me a stupid row about lembas. Gollum's duplicity makes Film Frodo look incredibly stupid, for believing Gollum over Sam. And Film Sam also looks incredibly stupid, for caving in! I'm a big fan of Book Frodo, and Film Frodo's characterisation often falls short for me. That scene was one of those times. :)

Book Gollum is not all that smart - tricksy and creepy and cunning to be sure, but nowhere near as intelligent as Frodo or even Sam - but in this film scene, Movie Gollum clearly is the smartest one on the block, for his successful 'divide and rule' tactics. :rofl:

Seriously annoying. :roll: :lol:
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby jotnar » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:46 pm

Diamond of Long Cleeve wrote:Laineth and Gorthaur - please note that I enjoyed the films and don't have much time for PJ-bashing. I'm all for rigorous critique, not for ascribing nefarious motives to PJ, who did a grand job in many ways. What we got could have been so much worse in many other directors' hands.

Nefarious motives? Pray, what could they be? :D

But as I have no, and never have had any, interest in "nefarious motives", I'd rather focus on your last quoted sentence, Di.
"What we got could have been so much worse in many other directors' hands."

And that, to me, sums up everything about Peter Jackson; he could have been worse. :|

Halleluja! Spread palm leaves before donkeys! No donkeys? Well spread palms anyway. No palms? OK, so the messiah isn't at hand, but what we do have in his stead isn't Beelzebub.

Thank Eru for that... :D :)
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Gorthaur the Cruel » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:22 am

Diamond of Long Cleeve wrote:Laineth and Gorthaur - please note that I enjoyed the films and don't have much time for PJ-bashing. I'm all for rigorous critique, not for ascribing nefarious motives to PJ, who did a grand job in many ways. What we got could have been so much worse in many other directors' hands.

But this is one of those scenes that I think inferior to canon.

As jotnar noted, my original post praised him for his positive contribution to this debate. I edited it (but in fact clicked 'quote' instead of 'edit') because, when I looked at it again, it seemed patronising.

I can usually find the source of PJ's changes and inventions somewhere in Tolkien's writings, even when the films present a distorted or exaggerated version (Gandalf's 'sacrifice' in Moria, so-called 'Filmamir', the use of telepathy, the "let's go hunt some orc" line, etc.). Not that I feel the need to - Peter Jackson is free to do whatever he likes in his films and it's the box office, not my sensibilities, that is the final judge of his success or failure. And not that I feel it justifies the film-makers' choices by being somehow more true to the book than many people think, because it doesn't.

In this case I think the important moment is not the near-redemption of Smeagol or the delay in Sam reaching Frodo. The important point in the film is when Frodo says, "Go home, Sam" and Sam actually leaves him. I can't contort anything described in the book into that sentiment, and certainly not that actuality.

In my opinion, this whole idea that the Ring made Frodo do it undermines the message (whether in-film or from the book) that a force for good (whether the special bond between men in war or the steely core at the heart of the fattest and laziest everyman) can be greater than a force for evil. The point about their relationship is that they don't let each other down, not that they do but then they forgive each other afterwards.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby siddharth » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:00 am

Diamond of Long Cleeve wrote:But this is one of those scenes that I think inferior to canon. This is a powerful scene in the book, one of the most haunting - Gollum's near-repentance on the stairs of Cirith Ungol. It is intrinsically cinematic. It's heart-breaking. It's great, great drama. And instead of that, PJ gave me a stupid row about lembas. Gollum's duplicity makes Film Frodo look incredibly stupid, for believing Gollum over Sam. And Film Sam also looks incredibly stupid, for caving in! I'm a big fan of Book Frodo, and Film Frodo's characterisation often falls short for me. That scene was one of those times. :)

Book Gollum is not all that smart - tricksy and creepy and cunning to be sure, but nowhere near as intelligent as Frodo or even Sam - but in this film scene, Movie Gollum clearly is the smartest one on the block, for his successful 'divide and rule' tactics. :rofl:


:rofl: Nice way to put it. :thumbsup:

Another intrinsically cinematic moment missed was the capture of the dwarves in AUJ. While I don't have a major issue with this version, but the scene was so tense in the book. Bilbo dreams of the wall of the cave cracking up by goblins and then he realizes it isn't just a dream. And then the orcs jump on'em. Blank. Would have made a very interesting scene. Instead, we got the Roller-coaster. :D
The same with the Goblin-town chase. The tunnel-chase in the books was full of suspense. AND believable. The hack n'slash in AUJ was just booring.
While again, PJ gives us occasionally cinematic moments which I didn't consider so in the books. Like the "Misty mountains" song, or Pippin's song. Or Theoden's "where is the horse..." or Amon-Din. I will also add the golden-dwarf, I know agains the angst of everyone here. ;)
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby jotnar » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:30 am

And another scene symptomatic of Peter Jackson; the trolls. It's hustle, bustle, hack, slash, poke, prod, duck and dive. A fight to the death against pitiless foes, a crescendo of CGI that... judders to a halt and surrender. Thirteen dwarves capitulating to three trolls, and certain death, for the purpose of? Saving Bilbo? Well, no. Bilbo remains on the menu, only the menu has now increased by 13... :roll:

Gorthaur, perhaps my comment was "patronising", but that was not the intent. I was struck by the similarity between Laineth's comment and Eric's wonderful punchline. It made me laugh. However, if I offended Laineth, I sincerely apologise. :)
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Gorthaur the Cruel » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:55 am

jotnar wrote:Gorthaur, perhaps my comment was "patronising", but that was not the intent. I was struck by the similarity between Laineth's comment and Eric's wonderful punchline. It made me laugh. However, if I offended Laineth, I sincerely apologise. :)

No, jotnar, I thought my original comment sounded patronising, which is why I removed it. Apologies for not making this clear.

I would like to say, though, I'm not sure what the capture of the dwarves in AUJ, or the Goblin Town chase, or the troll fight have to do with the specific points raised in the OP about the "Go home, Sam" moment. This thread, like all the others here, is now just another slanging match between those who despise PJ's films and those who salute them. It's fine to have that argument but does every single thread have to descend into it and so quickly?
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby jotnar » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:59 am

Gorthaur the Cruel wrote:
jotnar wrote:Gorthaur, perhaps my comment was "patronising", but that was not the intent. I was struck by the similarity between Laineth's comment and Eric's wonderful punchline. It made me laugh. However, if I offended Laineth, I sincerely apologise. :)

No, jotnar, I thought my original comment sounded patronising, which is why I removed it. Apologies for not making this clear.

I would like to say, though, I'm not sure what the capture of the dwarves in AUJ, or the Goblin Town chase, or the troll fight have to do with the specific points raised in the OP about the "Go home, Sam" moment. This thread, like all the others here, is now just another slanging match between those who despise PJ's films and those who salute them. It's fine to have that argument but does every single thread have to descend into it and so quickly?

Absolutely right, Gorthaur. I was responding to sidd's AUJ comment. I should have left it alone. Apologies to all, especially Laineth. :)
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby siddharth » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:49 am

Gorthaur the Cruel wrote:I would like to say, though, I'm not sure what the capture of the dwarves in AUJ, or the Goblin Town chase, or the troll fight have to do with the specific points raised in the OP about the "Go home, Sam" moment. This thread, like all the others here, is now just another slanging match between those who despise PJ's films and those who salute them. It's fine to have that argument but does every single thread have to descend into it and so quickly?[/color]


I didn't intend my post to turn this thread (with well-thought arguments by Laineth :) )into another of "those" threads, honestly. And I don't see why it would have.
As Di said, that Gollum's repentance is something which is very cinematic. And by my post I only wanted to say that it was not the only one. Which I can see was very unnecessary for my part. Apologies.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Laineth » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:52 pm

Thank you for the apologizes… I'm just shocked at the quick and emotional response. As you can probably tell, I'm new to the online fandom. All I've done before is read fan fiction/look at fan art - I was involved in those sections long before I came to Tolkien, with other fandoms.

I wasn't trying to hold up the book and film and compare the two. I was trying to show that the theme of Gollum's possible redemption was in the films.

As Di said, it is a scene that would have translated well onto the screen. However, the issue there is the timing. The books keep the story strands clearly separated - we will go forward with one group and then jump back in time to the other. In the films, that would be very confusing - these events are happening at the same time, they need to be shown at the same time. Otherwise, the sense of a timeline in the film is lost.

By that time, both plotlines are gearing up for an epic showdown. Gollum is literally minutes away from betraying them to Shelob. Everyone else is either on their way, or is at, Minas Tirith. The suspense is building, the tempo increasing. Essentially stopping the flow there would not work - which is probably why they put Golum's near redemption into TTT.

Again, I'm not trying to compare. Literature and filmmaking are fundamentally different processes. I just thought that since this is the movie forum, we could look at the films separate from the books.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby siddharth » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:29 pm

I think there is no issue here if we treat it purely as cinema. All the complaints about it are with regards to the book only. As pure cinema, I think it is a good scene- thanks to Gollum of course.
I can see it as the LotR-lite version of Anakin Skywalker falling for the Dark side. :D but the Sam turning back is still silly in that sense.

PS: You can take a look at our Role-playing forum down here if you are interested in fanfics.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Diamond of Long Cleeve » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:41 am

Laineth wrote:Thank you for the apologizes… I'm just shocked at the quick and emotional response. As you can probably tell, I'm new to the online fandom. All I've done before is read fan fiction/look at fan art - I was involved in those sections long before I came to Tolkien, with other fandoms.


Laineth, I think you will find exactly the same kind of emotional response to a movie adaptation in any book-based fandom. :)

Fans of Harry Potter, Game of Thrones and The Hunger Games grump endlessly about the changes made to their beloved books. :D Tolkien fans are, of course, no different! And I find Tolkien fans to be particularly passionate - and intelligent :) - because many of us have loved Tolkien's works for decades and had so much emotional investment in PJ's blockbusting, box-office breaking magnum opus.

By that time, both plotlines are gearing up for an epic showdown. Gollum is literally minutes away from betraying them to Shelob. Everyone else is either on their way, or is at, Minas Tirith. The suspense is building, the tempo increasing. Essentially stopping the flow there would not work - which is probably why they put Gollum's near redemption into TTT.


Oh, I understand that. I really do. I still think they could have included Gollum's near-repentance as shown in canon without slowing down the pace. Just my opinion.

Again, I'm not trying to compare. Literature and filmmaking are fundamentally different processes. I just thought that since this is the movie forum, we could look at the films separate from the books.


I understand that. For myself, however, I really enjoy comparing the films with the books, and find it impossible to discuss one without the other. In the movies forum, obviously the movie-verse will dominate the discussion, as is only reasonable ... but I cannot help but compare it with canon, because of my great attachment to the books. :)

The movies forum here is much quieter than it used to be, but there is, unfortunately, a very tiny minority who only seem to want to be provocative and 'poke' people in order to get a reaction. I am not including everyone who doesn't like PJ's LotR in that group! - there are posters who don't like PJ's adaptation but can post objectively about this without feeling the need to provoke and needle other posters.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Laineth » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:58 pm

Diamond of Long Cleeve wrote:Laineth, I think you will find exactly the same kind of emotional response to a movie adaptation in any book-based fandom. :)

Fans of Harry Potter, Game of Thrones and The Hunger Games grump endlessly about the changes made to their beloved books. :D Tolkien fans are, of course, no different! And I find Tolkien fans to be particularly passionate - and intelligent :) - because many of us have loved Tolkien's works for decades and had so much emotional investment in PJ's blockbusting, box-office breaking magnum opus.


But, you see, that's the thing - it's not. I've grown up in the Harry Potter fandom, and I've been in the thick of it for years. There are those who like the films, and those who dislike them, but it's not a hot topic. The same with the Hunger Games - I've been in that fandom for almost two years, and while there was a lot of discussion over Catching Fire (for example), it wasn't heated. In both of those, the films are films, and the heated conversations happen over opinions of the events and characters of the books.

I understand that. For myself, however, I really enjoy comparing the films with the books, and find it impossible to discuss one without the other. In the movies forum, obviously the movie-verse will dominate the discussion, as is only reasonable ... but I cannot help but compare it with canon, because of my great attachment to the books. :)


I understand! :) I love looking at both.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby darthgandalf99 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:22 pm

Laineth wrote:As Di said, it is a scene that would have translated well onto the screen. However, the issue there is the timing. The books keep the story strands clearly separated - we will go forward with one group and then jump back in time to the other. In the films, that would be very confusing - these events are happening at the same time, they need to be shown at the same time. Otherwise, the sense of a timeline in the film is lost.

By that time, both plotlines are gearing up for an epic showdown. Gollum is literally minutes away from betraying them to Shelob. Everyone else is either on their way, or is at, Minas Tirith. The suspense is building, the tempo increasing. Essentially stopping the flow there would not work - which is probably why they put Golum's near redemption into TTT.

I don't think it necessarily the case that having a moment of near redemption at that point would "break the flow", in fact, the flow is all too clear and formulaic for me at that point - Gollum has been well and truly revealed as the plotting villain since his failed redemption at the end of the TTT - we know She(lob) is coming, we just don't know what she is yet. In fact, the main reason we are having to send Sam away is to bolster the suspense at that point - and I think part of the reason the suspense was lacking or, at least, needed bolstering, is that PJ moved Gollum's failed redemption back to the TTT and thus put the Gollum-is-the-plotting-villain-card on the card, so early - this particular rhythm has been beating since the second film. I'm not really sure what increasing the tempo does for a rhythm that has been beating for so long - I think the film could have done with a moment away from formula and that point, unfortunately separating Sam and Frodo, creating the "dramatic conflict" before the inevitable moment of reconciliation was nothing if not sticking to formula. For me, having Gollum's failed redemption at that point (if executed well) would be a moment of tense cinematic suspense in itself and the failure of such redemption (again if the potential redemption had been believable in the first place) would lend such a poignant layer of tragedy to the scenes which followed.

I think, with this scene, we get a lot of jumbling and fumbling for small dividends, ultimately, and at the expense of a poor character moment for both Frodo and Sam. At the time I thought this was one of the weaker moments of the film (I believe I am correct in saying that this is one of the first scenes they ever filmed, so perhaps that plays into it), and I don't think the ten years has been kind to this scene. Granted, I'm not a filmmaker, but then, who is here? Ideas are ideas, and there is more than one way to make a good film, and there are many theoretical ways to improve on films which are already good. This scene still plays out just as stilted for me on my thirtieth repeat viewing of the film (so yes, if you were wondering, I do very much enjoy the film over all ;) ).

Again, I'm not trying to compare. Literature and filmmaking are fundamentally different processes. I just thought that since this is the movie forum, we could look at the films separate from the books.

The thing is, we are quite often looking at the end product/the art, not the process behind it. And for the individual, the "consumer (of the art)", if you like, the product is what you make of it. Hence why you will get some people who don't look on the films and books as completely different things. After all, the third credit of each of the LOTR films is "Based on the book(s) by JRR Tolkien" - therefore I think it is inevitable that in the movies forum of "The One Ring, the home of Tolkien online" you will get many people who want to talk about the films by reference to the books.

I think this is just one of those scenes that people will never agree on, even if we admire how the other person goes about defending their view point, or making their case - for many, the gap is too big to bridge :)
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Laineth » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:12 pm

darthgandalf99 wrote:I don't think it necessarily the case that having a moment of near redemption at that point would "break the flow", in fact, the flow is all too clear and formulaic for me at that point - Gollum has been well and truly revealed as the plotting villain since his failed redemption at the end of the TTT - we know She(lob) is coming, we just don't know what she is yet. In fact, the main reason we are having to send Sam away is to bolster the suspense at that point - and I think part of the reason the suspense was lacking or, at least, needed bolstering, is that PJ moved Gollum's failed redemption back to the TTT and thus put the Gollum-is-the-plotting-villain-card on the card, so early - this particular rhythm has been beating since the second film. I'm not really sure what increasing the tempo does for a rhythm that has been beating for so long - I think the film could have done with a moment away from formula and that point, unfortunately separating Sam and Frodo, creating the "dramatic conflict" before the inevitable moment of reconciliation was nothing if not sticking to formula. For me, having Gollum's failed redemption at that point (if executed well) would be a moment of tense cinematic suspense in itself and the failure of such redemption (again if the potential redemption had been believable in the first place) would lend such a poignant layer of tragedy to the scenes which followed.

I think, with this scene, we get a lot of jumbling and fumbling for small dividends, ultimately, and at the expense of a poor character moment for both Frodo and Sam. At the time I thought this was one of the weaker moments of the film (I believe I am correct in saying that this is one of the first scenes they ever filmed, so perhaps that plays into it), and I don't think the ten years has been kind to this scene. Granted, I'm not a filmmaker, but then, who is here? Ideas are ideas, and there is more than one way to make a good film, and there are many theoretical ways to improve on films which are already good. This scene still plays out just as stilted for me on my thirtieth repeat viewing of the film (so yes, if you were wondering, I do very much enjoy the film over all ;) ).


Oh, it's not one of my favorite scenes - it has never deeply moved me. And I do see both of your points about the flow and the formula. Could it have been done? Maybe, if they handled it carefully. They would have to give Gollum an excuse for going near Frodo, but that could be done. To me, what I walked away with as the point of this scene is how so very close to breaking Sam and Frodo are. If Gollum could come up with Shelob, he could come up with the bread trick; but Frodo would have to be very out of it to believe it - and he clearly is (the filtered way he hears Sam's offer to help, etc). The fact that Sam didn't fight it and actually started going back shows how much this has taken out of him, too - and that sets up moments like, 'I don't believe there will be a journey back, Mr. Frodo' or 'I may not be able to carry it, but I can carry you!'.

Was it the best decision? I honestly don't know.

The thing is, we are quite often looking at the end product/the art, not the process behind it. And for the individual, the "consumer (of the art)", if you like, the product is what you make of it. Hence why you will get some people who don't look on the films and books as completely different things. After all, the third credit of each of the LOTR films is "Based on the book(s) by JRR Tolkien" - therefore I think it is inevitable that in the movies forum of "The One Ring, the home of Tolkien online" you will get many people who want to talk about the films by reference to the books.

I think this is just one of those scenes that people will never agree on, even if we admire how the other person goes about defending their view point, or making their case - for many, the gap is too big to bridge :)


I didn't word myself correctly. Of course, with an adaption, we're going to compare it to the source material. What I've realized by joining this forum is that I look at it from a theme based perspective (is the theme of Gollum's possible redemption in the films?) instead of 'a word for word like the text' perspective. And that, probably, is because I'm an aspiring filmmaker. Or maybe it's just me. ;)

I don't think anyone needs to agree, it can be nice to have a discussion! :) I was just surprised by the sheer amount of snark and hate directed towards it - but maybe I missed a thread where it was discussed! :)
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Gorthaur the Cruel » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:46 am

Laineth wrote:What I've realized by joining this forum is that I look at it from a theme based perspective (is the theme of Gollum's possible redemption in the films?) instead of 'a word for word like the text' perspective. And that, probably, is because I'm an aspiring filmmaker.

I'm pretty sure most people here are capable of recognising what themes from the books are represented faithfully in the films, and which aren't, without needing a word-for-word rendition and without needing to be 'aspiring film-makers'. I'm also pretty sure that most of the people who detest this moment in the films do so because it utterly undermines themes that are absolutely fundamental to the story, whether it's being told in the cinema or in books.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Laineth » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:33 pm

Gorthaur the Cruel wrote:I'm pretty sure most people here are capable of recognising what themes from the books are represented faithfully in the films, and which aren't, without needing a word-for-word rendition and without needing to be 'aspiring film-makers'. I'm also pretty sure that most of the people who detest this moment in the films do so because it utterly undermines themes that are absolutely fundamental to the story, whether it's being told in the cinema or in books.


I'm sure they are, and I didn't say otherwise. I apologize if it came across that way. This is a very subjective topic, and I freely admitted that this may just be me. I'm no expert - no one is when it comes to something this subjective. I would love to hear how it undermines the story, as in depth discussions are the best! :)
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Frodome » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:42 am

Actually, all the events of the books are certainly there in the movie(s), but they're used badly(like in the War you should use weapons and you're playing with cricket balls). Tolkien showed that Frodo's pity towards Gollum was the strength of his spirit, while movie show it's his weakness. Sam had taken "oath" to be with Frodo. In the book he leaves Frodo, but to complete the task his master died before finishing. Sam goes not because he is betrayed by Frodo, but for his tribute for Frodo. He comes back out of his love in both movie and the book. Where's the specific scene in the movie that showed Gollum repented? Where's the scene that proved Frodo wasn't wrong? Ring tricks Frodo twice when Sam tries to share the burden. But Frodo comes back to his senses in few seconds, and he apologies. Movies didn't have time to add little more meaningful stuff, but this scene couldn't be shortened, why? I like the movies, but cannot admire this scene AT ALL.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby siddharth » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:25 am

Gollum's repentance is there in the films, though the timing is changed.
In TTT we see Smeagol driving his Gollum self away. That is, in a way, showing his change in character. Which is followed by the herbs and stewed rabbit scene.
The scene in the book was more cinematic of course, but the repentence is still shown. All be it in a changed manner.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Frodome » Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:16 am

siddharth wrote:Gollum's repentance is there in the films, though the timing is changed.
In TTT we see Smeagol driving his Gollum self away. That is, in a way, showing his change in character. Which is followed by the herbs and stewed rabbit scene.
The scene in the book was more cinematic of course, but the repentence is still shown. All be it in a changed manner.

Ah, yes, I remember that now. That wasn't much effective to make people(non book-readers) believe so. Or that's just me? May be. In the book there are several occasions where both Smèagol and Gollum argue like this. His redemption in the movies is just a fleeting moment, that hardly makes an impact. If it did, there would be less Frodo-bashing for trusting Gollum. I was expecting to see that scene in EE, but didn't.
Last edited by Frodome on Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby siddharth » Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:20 am

Speak for yourself! That was one of the most effective moments from TTT! :D
of course on reading the book, tbe book counterpart was much better. Though even there, Tolkien's language plays a big factor.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Frodome » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:19 am

Book(TTT) has several moving scenes regarding Gollum. A part of him wants to betray the master, other doesn't. He's engaged in his debate. As I said, it can't be just me, if it were really so, people would have understood Frodo wasn't wrong in Gollum's case (and nor was Sam).
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby siddharth » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:20 am

Frodome wrote:Book(TTT) has several
moving scenes regarding Gollum. A part of him wants to betray the
master, other doesn't. He's engaged in his debate. As I said, it can't
be just me, if it were really so, people would have understood Frodo
wasn't wrong in Gollum's case (and nor was Sam).


Quite the opposite actually. The films spend more time on Gollum than books do. As a result film Gollum also comes off as a more sympathetic character than in the books. Perhaps more than what Tolkien wanted. These inner debates you mention are extensove in the films as well.

I think a majority of people did understand that pitying Gollum was not Frodo's folly. I did. Gandalf's line about Smeagol yet to play a part for good or ill is still there. And I suspect most of thosd that did not get that only on seeing the films would not gave got that from the books as well.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby Frodome » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:39 pm

Actually, Gollum's character is one of the biggest achievements of the movies. And I'm glad for that. As someone here mentioned that Gollum in the movies is smarter than he is in the books. In the movies he comes as more evil than in the books. In the books we know why he did that. Faramir's case would have been fine (i.e. Frodo's so-called betrayal), if Sam hadn't said anything harsh to Gollum in the books. Movies don't show that. There Smèagol does understand Frodo's pity, asks Gollum to go away, feels betrayed by his Master, betrays him to the Shelob. Tolkien gives him another chance of redemption. He is able to come out of his grudge one more time. It isn't Frodo who Gollum feels betrayed by, it's, sadly, Sam.
People don't think trusting Gollum was Frodo's folly? Seriously? I have never seen a single person saying so. On Facebook, or sites, I only see audience making harsh comments about him.
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Re: Thoughts on Making Sam Leave

Postby siddharth » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:26 pm

Frodome wrote:Actually, Gollum's
character is one of the biggest achievements of the movies. And I'm glad for that. As someone here mentioned that Gollum in the movies is smarter than he is in the books. In the movies he comes as more evil
than in the books. In the books we know why he did that. Faramir's case
would have been fine (i.e. Frodo's so-called betrayal), if Sam hadn't
said anything harsh to Gollum in the books. Movies don't show that.
There Smèagol does understand Frodo's pity, asks Gollum to go away,
feels betrayed by his Master, betrays him to the Shelob. Tolkien gives
him another chance of redemption. He is able to come out of his grudge
one more time. It isn't Frodo who Gollum feels betrayed by, it's, sadly,
Sam.



According to Tolkien, book Gollum truly repented only once, at the stairs. Film Gollum also repented only once at Ithillien. Additionally the film also shows how
Gollum would have been had he turned back to being more of a hobbit. Hence the scene with stewed rabbits following his repentance. Thr only reason film Gollum appears more evil is the scene talked about in this thread. Remove that and film Gollum is a more sympathetic character

People don't think trusting Gollum was Frodo's folly? Seriously? I have never seen a single person saying so. On Facebook, or sites, I only see audience making harsh comments about him.


1. An overwhelming number of people on popular sites such as facebook are dumb. Do not base your judgements on such.

2. Likewise, I have seen numerous people, acknowledging Frodo's pity and sacrifice from the films, including my parents who have never read the books. The main criticism re Film Frodo is the wimpification of his character. I have no other problem with his portrayal.
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