the end of LOTR

[redrobot]

why does frodo leave on the elven ship with bilbo?

[brodobaggins]

Wanted a vacation.

[redrobot]

it wasnt a vacation, he was leaving for good. there were tears. no answer to this big question so far. is that because despite all the drama of that scene it was really quite an inexplicable thing for frodo to do?

[brodobaggins]

Na, he comes back with a nice tan and some great photos. Remember when he shows them to Sam? I think the 4 hobbits go on a trip together later

[heliona]

It's not inexplicable at all. Frodo never fully recovered from his wound from the Morgul blade and wasn't content with his life in Middle-earth after that. Because he was a Ringbearer, he was allowed to travel West to the land of Valinor, the journey of which is normally only allowed for Elves (Gandalf was originally a Maia and came from Valinor). This is why Bilbo was allowed to go, as he was a Ringbearer. Sam also went West just before he died, because he bore the Ring for a short time, too.

redrobot, I think you really need to read the books - they would answer all the questions you have (and are much better than the films ).

[redrobot]

Frodo never fully recovered from his wound from the Morgul blade and wasn't content with his life in Middle-earth after that.

no, that isnt causal. having a pain in the shoulder doesnt make you want to leave home. the fact that he was allowed on the boat is irrelevant to why he wanted to leave. why was he dissatisfied with hobbiton and where is the evidence?

i wd try to read the books perhaps if i thought i cd succeed. i havent read a book all the way thro - with 2 exceptions - in the last 20 years. i read snippets on the web. cant concentrate.

[heliona]

Sorry, I keep forgetting how much is left out the films.

The wound of the Morgul blade that Frodo sustained from the Ringwraith never truly healed, both physically and mentally. It doesn't really come across in the film, but most of the damage was done mentally, so when I said that it wasn't healed, it wasn't the physical pain that ailed Frodo. It was mental. Also, using the One Ring left a weariness in their bones and soul that staying in Middle-earth just couldn't solve. Because they had this weariness due to carrying the One Ring (and thus being instrumental in defeating Sauron) they were granted a boon to be able to live in peace in Valinor (the land of the elves and Valar, who are sort of Tolkien's equivalent to angels, although it's not really heaven) until they died a natural death.

(That's also why Sam went later, although according to the film, Frodo and Bilbo leave on the last ship, which isn't true to the books. And Gimli goes West too, with Legolas, having been granted leave to go thanks to his good friendship with Galadriel. Again, not seen in the films!)

Does that make sense? Again, nothing's really simple in the world of Tolkien!

Once again, there is absolutely no evidence for this in the films, but it is in the book.

It's a shame that you can't get through books - there's so much out there, even in the world of Tolkien. Snippets don't do it justice - context is very important and there's so much backstory to take into account.

[redrobot]

hmm. that wd seem to be a directing error. frodo cd have been made to appear more psychologically messed up on his return from mordor.

[heliona]

Well, (in the book), he's not psychologically messed up, as you put it, it is more a feeling of restlessness and not being able to settle. A dissatisfaction and weariness of the world. The time between arriving back in Hobbiton and leaving with Bilbo is a good while, so Frodo gives it a good old try (staying in the Middle-earth) but can't. I can't remember whether there seems to be a time period between the two events in the film. Peter Jackson cut out a large scene (it was never really filmed) from the end of the book, because he felt there were too many endings anyway, so I guess he didn't want to drag out the ending even more.

I agree it is not clear why Frodo is leaving. I feel that a quick conversation with Sam before going would have done it. But then again, there are lots of things that PJ did that I disagree with. The films don't really stand by themselves after much examination.

[truehobbit]

I think it wasn't all that unclear in the film.

From a quick google to find the script, the text of the scene is:
"How do you pick up the threads of an old life? How do you go on, when in your heart, you begin to understand, there is no going back? There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep… that have taken hold." And when we see Frodo still suffering from the Morgul wound and Sam looking really worried: "It's been four years to the day since Weathertop, Sam. It's never really healed."

I'm not sure it's explained much more deeply in the book, really. The book stresses how Frodo becomes ill each time an anniversary (of the destruction of the Ring, of his being hurt on Weathertop) comes round, so we can see a bit better how the suffering remains with him. But he leaves just as surprisingly for Sam as in the movie. There is only one sentence the movie leaves out that explains a bit more deeply, after "I tried to save the Shire and it has been saved, but not for me": "It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them." I guess we are expected to understand that some experiences are really traumatizing (and the film showed them quite poignantly, I thought) - you never get over them, you can try to live normally, but it'll never be the same again. We have seen that Bilbo and Gollum keep being affected by their having owned the ring, even when they didn't have it anymore. So we'll know it'll be the same for Frodo (esp. as we have his 'naked in the dark' lines in Mordor, telling us explicitly what the ring does to him). And the lines above are pretty explicit, too. It is also quite visible from the departure scene that Frodo doesn't want to go. We get the 'The Shire was saved but not for me"-line.

So, while there's certainly room for questions and puzzlement (as there is with everything in Tolkien), I think the film does a pretty good job explaining what's going on. Of course I can't tell how things come across when you haven't read the book first, but I would think there's a good amount of information there.

[redrobot]

i think part of the problem might be that while the lines describe his state of mind his appearance and demeanor do not show significant alteration. he looks and acts like the same old frodo and we react to him as such.

[brodobaggins]

Anyone remember the MTV sketch with PJ, Ben Stiller and Vince Vaughn? "What if the ring wasn't destroyed...?"

[Anriel Mendereth]

Just putting in a thought for fun...was Bilbo opting to leave on the ship for Valinor almost a form of suicide? I hadn't really thought of it that way before, but when you put those lines up from the film truehobbit, it suddenly made me think.

[redrobot]

he's going to die. there's a line just near the end about him making one final journey, code for death. he looks like he's on his last legs. the ancient face, the tired hesd resting on frodo. the vaguely senile mutterings about the ring

[Aravar]

I can't remember whether there seems to be a time period between the two events in the film.

Some time must pass: Sam marries Rosie and when he gets back from the havens he has two children. Elanor looks a few years old.

[redrobot]

there is also a look that frodo gives sam when he sees him with his wife, as if to say 'our friendship, as it was, is over'.

[RoseMorninStar]

There were a couple of things at play in regards to Frodo; first: a wound by a morgul blade is not an ordinary wound. It has a sort of magical poison that could not be healed in Middle Earth. When the mogul blade touches flesh a piece breaks off (in the flesh) and if left too long the wounded person becomes a wraith. Frodo was on the verge of becoming a wraith when the piece was removed but it did irreparable harm to his being.

Gandalf said: 'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured', - not healed in Middle-earth. However, if Frodo were allowed to pass over the Sea it might be done before his death. Also allowing hm to gain a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness before his mortal passing.

Secondly: the ring had a magical quality about it which some might liken to an addiction of sorts. It was not a benign bit of gold. The bearing of the ring -especially constantly having it on his being for the years of the War of the Ring, changed Frodo, as it changed Gollum, and, to a lesser extent, Bilbo. Once Sauron was aware the ring had resurfaced there was a draw and a poisoning of whomever would bear the ring.

Thirdly: Tolkien often wrote of soldiers who returned from war. Some were able to pick up where they left off and go on with life. Some were forever changed (something like PSTD) and are never quite the same.

Fourth: Ultimately Frodo knows he failed. Had not 'fate' /Gollums greed for the ring, stepped in, he fears he would have been unable to let the ring go and destroy it. It is something he has difficulty living with.. the title of 'hero' when he knows, in his heart, he failed. Although, technically I don't know if Frodo could have left that inferno on his own and he may well have destroyed the ring (along with himself).

[redrobot]

gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness

what??

[RoseMorninStar]

gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness

what??

Humility is perhaps a better word? I did not literally mean his size.

there is also a look that frodo gives sam when he sees him with his wife, as if to say 'our friendship, as it was, is over'.

I do believe Frodo loves Sam; a mix of agape, phileo, and storge, but not eros. Sam is the true hero of the story. He literally went to the crack of doom/hell with Frodo (and back again) for no personal gain; a journey that Sam did not sign up for because he knew what he was getting himself into. Sam literally saved humanity in Middle Earth, not just by making the perilous journey but by being able to return home and get on with the business of living and loving in a way Frodo could not. I believe that look Frodo gives Sam is love, and wistfulness, and sadness, for things he can no longer experience. Frodo is a broken man. Er.. hobbit.

I'd have to look it up to be certain of the details, but Tolkien's experiences in the trenches of WWI greatly influenced him and his writing. He lost, I believe, all but one friend in that war. He had a great deal of respect for the 'bat boys' (after who Samwise Gamgee is modeled) assigned to an officers staff. Often unlearned country boys, he felt they were superior to himself. When one is facing deaths door on a daily basis, you form an uncommon bond, or so I've been lead to believe from what I've read. Similar to survivors of many tragedies, I suppose.

[brodobaggins]

I don't know about Sam being the true hero of the story. Definitely a hero, but Frodo is the one who has to carry the burden all the way from the Shire. To put it in a basketball reference, Frodo is Jordan and Sam is Pippen.

[RoseMorninStar]

Tolkien considered Samwise Gamgee to be the 'chief hero' of the story and said so in his letters; #131.

"I think the simple 'rustic' love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero's) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the 'longing for Elves', and sheer beauty."

I can see why some may not come to that conclusion (that Sam was the chief hero), but, and perhaps this isn't as clear in the movies, Sam carried Frodo half way up that mountain. He beat down and killed a gigantic spider and stormed a tower full of orcs to save Frodo. He steadfastly resisted the power of the ring. Without Sam, Frodo truly would never have made it, in addition to the inability of Frodo (as mentioned in my earlier post) to ultimately let go of the ring once he was at the crack of doom. After it's destruction, Frodo was tempted to regret it's destruction. I suppose not unlike a addiction.

Not that I fault Frodo for his actions. He was placed in an entirely horrific position and expected to overcome astronomical odds. I think, in part, one of Sam's strengths was also his greatest fault.. his very typical hobbitish myopia. His small mindedness. Because his thinking was narrow and he had no grand ambitions, any sway the ring held over him, the most he could come up with as a 'powerful desire' was to have the greatest garden in Middle Earth. Not exactly a conqueror or overlord. Another strength would be his loyalty.

[redrobot]

Humility is perhaps a better word?

not very humble allowing someone to call you 'mr frodo'.

[siddharth]

I consider neither of them to be the hero. It is their friendship, the pair of two that was the real hero of the story. Yes Sam carried Frodo for quite a distance and he saved him several times. But Sam never carried the Ring. (The little time he did, he was nigh incapable fighting off it's evil - a task that Frodo remarkably succeeded in) Frodo's battle was inside him. He could not have fought both within and outside. That's where Sam came in, fighting the physical battles of Frodo for the two of them. Both Sam and Frodo represent two tropes of the Hero's journey. Sam gets the fairy-tale ending where he lives off his days in peace with his family and friends. Frodo was the tragic hero, having permanently wounded by injury and guilt and sadness and thus in the end, abandoning everything he once held dear.

[brodobaggins]

I consider neither of them to be the hero. It is their friendship, the pair of two that was the real hero of the story. Yes Sam carried Frodo for quite a distance and he saved him several times. But Sam never carried the Ring. (The little time he did, he was nigh incapable fighting off it's evil - a task that Frodo remarkably succeeded in) Frodo's battle was inside him. He could not have fought both within and outside. That's where Sam came in, fighting the physical battles of Frodo for the two of them. Both Sam and Frodo represent two tropes of the Hero's journey. Sam gets the fairy-tale ending where he lives off his days in peace with his family and friends. Frodo was the tragic hero, having permanently wounded by injury and guilt and sadness and thus in the end, abandoning everything he once held dear.

Bit of a grim picture painted of Frodo. Gets to hang out with Ian McKellen and Cate Blanchett in a boat at the end, ain't so bad.

[redrobot]

having permanently wounded by injury and guilt and sadness

how likely is it the physical injury affected his attitude to the shire? not likely. guilt? at what? he was under the spell of evil magic at the end, he is absolved. if he didnt feel absolved then he is not too smart. sadness... at what? the end of the friendship as he knew it with sam? yes. he felt sad and lonely and needed a new start. there's also the returned hero syndrome. massive adventures followed by total calm. who wdnt get twitchy?

[siddharth]

Bit of a grim picture painted of Frodo. Gets to hang out with Ian McKellen and Cate Blanchett in a boat at the end, ain't so bad.

Haha. Perhaps that was grimmer than I intended. But I still find it quite sad.

@redrobot. You should read the books rather than judging from (what I consider) a poorly conceived movie scene. I doubt that you would though.

[redrobot]

@redrobot. You should read the books rather than judging from (what I consider) a poorly conceived movie scene. I doubt that you would though.

the books may well have more merit than the films in some / many ways but the films are of interest in themselves. i have seen the films but not read the books. this does not bar me from intelligent conversation about hobbits - based on the films. if you dont want to talk film hobbits, perhaps you shd get to the books forum. i am more inclined to try a book than before i visited this forum. i'll maybe check amazon.

[here2fore]

Frodo was a Ring-bearer. In the canon, all living ring-bearers are borne over to the Undying Lands of Valinor. Even Samwise Gamgee, though briefly a ring-bearer, eventually departed from the Grey Havens along with, I guess the last ship steered by Círdan the shipwright... though the records show he tarried into the Fourth Age, beyond the passing of Aragorn, and the transit of Legolas and Gimi.

More to the point, Frodo was welcomed for his deeds, as was Bilbo, as was Gandalf. The reason Frodo sailed off is because he must.

[Krypton_Son]

I always took it as an allegory for Heaven as well. The Elves and Wizards times are over, they "die" and go to the Gray Havens, Frodo never fully recovered from the blade and the bearing of the ring, Bilbo was old and frail and also felt the weight of the ring, etc. They didn't physically die in the story obviously, but it's essentially the same thing. They were heroic and brave, kept on the path and got a reward in the end. I have to agree though, it's a lot more obvious in the books.

[Thor 'n' Oakenshield]

For Frodo, I got the sense that it was a journey to be healed of his wounds, and I believe Tolkien wrote something to that effect in his letters. I might be wrong, but I almost thought that he used, in that same letter, words that seemed to imply Frodo would return? I can't quite remember, and I don't have Letters on hand. But I'm pretty confident that he went there to be healed, rather than to simply die. For Bilbo, I think his time was clearly over, and he would probably pass on in Valinor (though, by the way he looked in the movie at that point, I would be surprised if he lasted the boat-ride!)
For Galadriel, it was (in a way) an act of repentance. She was, after all, ones of the exiles who rebelled against the Valar. Her returning to Valinor, humbled and "diminished", was an act of incredible bravery. The fact that, once in Valinor again, she became powerful enough to sway the council of the Gods to allow Gimli to pass into the West…that is truly astonishing!
For Elrond, he left so he could be reunited with his wife.
And Gandalf, obviously, had finished his task in Middle-earth and was returning finally to his divine employers. His is the most remote and lofty of motives in this scene.