body fascism

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body fascism

Postby redrobot » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:16 am

the 4 main female characters - eowyn, galadriel, tauriel and arwen all share the same svelte body shape. something at work here in casting?
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Re: body fascism

Postby heliona » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:31 am

Well, Eowyn and Tauriel are supremely fit fighters, so they're going to be lean.

Galadriel and Arwen are elves, of course. I can't off the top of my head remember any descriptions of elves, but it is difficult to imagine them being overweight. (All of the elves in the films are 'svelte'.)

(Not that I don't think that Hollywood casts women who correspond to a certain, perceived best body type, I'm just not sure whether that's the case here.)
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Re: body fascism

Postby redrobot » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:55 am

of course it's the case heer- slim and beautiful. your quaint belief that eowyn's slimness contributes to her success in battle is touching. she is successful in battle because the script says she was and because effects can make it that way. in any real way she wd not have been able to swing a sword in armour for more than a few minutes with that frail physique.
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Re: body fascism

Postby siddharth » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:30 am

It's an interesting question, guessing the physique of an ancient warrior.

Slimness or sturdiness is only one of the many factors that make a warrior. History has seen it's mass of lean and skillful warriors and it's brutish strong fighters and many more. Speed and agility is definitely a crucial factor in combats.

But it doesn't matter. As has been pointed out to you before, LotR is meant to be a mythology.

Women in mythologies, sagas, legends are mostly portrayed as svelte even if they are warriors or fighters. Be it Boudicca or Jean d'Arc or Gwendolen or Cordelia or the Lady of Yue or Artemis or Lakshmi Bai or Durga or Mulan and so forth. Tales, songs, sculptures and paintings ranging from the Neoclassical to Renaissance. They're depicted, for the most part, slim and elegant and yet are said to be great warriors and/or rulers/goddesses.

This is rather in contrast to the warrior men of old, especially in European cultures. Throughout the classical world, physical fitness was a state of aspiration.
There is a rather vast amount of classical archeological artifacts that depict lightly clad/naked men with rigorous physique engaged in wrestling or combat. These men are generally described as athletically built (in contrast, men in Asian and South Asian mythologies are depicted rather slender and delicate with a few notable exceptions.)
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Re: body fascism

Postby redrobot » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:52 am

It's an interesting question, guessing the physique of an ancient warrior.


i havent done this. the warrior in question is eowyn who is fictional not ancient and i didnt guess i described. she's a waif, a catwalk model, if a little on the short side. she is supposed to represent the half girl / half woman 'maiden' of the noble court. a tomboyish charactyer wanting to do battle. but she is unfit. weak except for the fantasies of a film director. just like many other women fighters on film. one i always think of is kira nareese on DS9. she's supposed to be a resistance fighter capable of hand to hand combat but it's all fantasy. she's just a babe in a jumpsuit who wd be crushed by the first klingon who cared to try.

As has been pointed out to you before, LotR is meant to be a mythology.


i dont like the tone here. it's patronising and alienating and slightly angry.

Tales, songs, sculptures and paintings ranging from the Neoclassical to Renaissance. They're depicted, for the most part, slim and elegant


let's put it this way. who wd you rather be in a battle with an army of orcs - 8 and a half stone (sic) waif eowyn or some 15 stone man rippling with muscles?
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Re: body fascism

Postby siddharth » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:24 am

i havent done this. the warrior in question is eowyn who is fictional not ancient and i didnt guess i described. she's a waif, a catwalk model, if a little on the short side. she is supposed to represent the half girl / half woman 'maiden' of the noble court.


Eowyn is fictional but her story is part of Tolkien's myth. You are free to see it otherwise, however the stories of LotR and especially the Silm are written in a way that in scope and style resemble mythologies. Mythologies are based on actual legends from our history. In LotR's case it is supposed to have happened (and not really happened, if get me). Hence, Eowyn in this case is 'ancient' within the context.

a tomboyish charactyer wanting to do battle. but she is unfit. weak except for the fantasies of a film director. just like many other women fighters on film. one i always think of is kira nareese on DS9. she's supposed to be a resistance fighter capable of hand to hand combat but it's all fantasy. she's just a babe in a jumpsuit who wd be crushed by the first klingon who cared to try.


It's a recurring theme of LotR- finding strength and courage when no one expects anything of you. Merry and Pippin both survived an actual war - in fact going so far as Pippin bringing down an entire Mountain-troll all by himself and Merry helping in the Wiki's downfall firsthand. Sam defeated Shelob all by himself.
Eowyn, on the other hand was a practiced shield-maiden ...

i dont like the tone here. it's patronising and alienating and slightly angry.


Well, it was not intended to be so. Messageboards are not really my preference to convey tone or expressions.

let's put it this way. who wd you rather be in a battle with an army of orcs - 8 and a half stone (sic) waif eowyn or some 15 stone man rippling with muscles?


Going just by Fingolfin's (a slender Elf-Lord) fight with Melkor, the original Dark Lord - the previous one.
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Re: body fascism

Postby redrobot » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:31 am

i think if you look at the survivors of say the battle of hastings, the little guys didnt do too well. it's just literary fantasy to say otherwise. little people can be cleverer and more cunning but at the end of the day i think brute strength has to count for a lot.
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Re: body fascism

Postby redrobot » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:31 am

i think if you look at the survivors of say the battle of hastings, the little guys didnt do too well. it's just literary fantasy to say otherwise. little people can be cleverer and more cunning but at the end of the day i think brute strength has to count for a lot.
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Re: body fascism

Postby siddharth » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:32 am

A lot, but not everything.
And Eowyn wasn't little.

:)
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Re: body fascism

Postby redrobot » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:49 am

yes, eowyn was little. google it and you'll see she weighs 8 and a half stone. that's the average weight of a 15 yr old girl (govt stats). you can see to look at her she's thin, not athletic looking.
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Re: body fascism

Postby siddharth » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:46 am

Not sure where you got Eowyn's weight from as Tolkien never mentioned it and neither does google.

Miranda Otto's weight seems to be 58 Kgs and I saw even lesser weighing athletes, wrestlers, judokas, pole vaulters and weightlifters (women's weightlifting starts at class 48 KGS). So it's utter nonsense that people who weigh less can't be strong.
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Re: body fascism

Postby redrobot » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:00 am

Not sure where you got Eowyn's weight from as Tolkien never mentioned it and neither does google.


we are talking about the movies ie miranda otto who weighs 8 and a half stone. google it.

Miranda Otto's weight seems to be 58 Kgs and I saw even lesser weighing athletes, wrestlers, judokas, pole vaulters and weightlifters (women's weightlifting starts at class 48 KGS). So it's utter nonsense that people who weigh less can't be strong.


'sttrong' is a relative term. the judokas, wrestlers etc fight others of the same weight and the weightlifters lift weights far less than other divisions. yes, small people can be strong for their size but then comes along a warrior twice their size and 9/10 that warrior will crush the smaller pperson. unless you are in a jackson fantasy in which case svelte young women have great success in battle. laughable.
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Re: body fascism

Postby siddharth » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:58 pm

Well of course 'strength' is subjective. The only reason I mentioned those sports was to negate your clearly objectified comment that 'little people cannot be strong'. 48 kgs weightlifters can lift three to four times their own weight. Judokas and wrestlers are indeed capable of KOing people greater their size (Jujitsu itself is based upon it)

Are they as strong as an equivalent rank larger than them? They're not and I never argued they are in the first place. So it's better to not keep alternating between the two.

Maybe you missed it when I said before that strength is not the only factor contributing to swordsmanship. Speed, agility,precision are equally important. Slimness does not contribute to strength, it does to speed. History has records of gladiatorial combats and the slim but athletic Spartans. Hector of Troy was smaller than his opponent Ajax and yet they fought each other to a stalemate. Hence proving common logic.
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Re: body fascism

Postby redrobot » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:53 pm

Hector of Troy was smaller than his opponent Ajax and yet they fought each other to a stalemate. Hence proving common logic.


there are no facts to support this. the illiad is not history. common logic, whatever that is, is a meaningless phrase as everything is there to be overturned if the arguments prevail.
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Re: body fascism

Postby siddharth » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:58 pm

Illiad is not history, it's a mythology.
LotR is not supposed to be a history, it's supposed to be a mythology.
Common logic is what you get if you apply practicality and not hypotheses on warrior physique and combat skill.
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Re: body fascism

Postby redrobot » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:34 am

Illiad is not history,


i said that

it's a mythology.


or in fact legend. it's undecided. in either event, claims about the body shape of heroes are at best unreliable and at worst pure fiction.
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Re: body fascism

Postby siddharth » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:35 pm

And you have yet to provide any evidence at all that prove your claims or dispute mine.
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Re: body fascism

Postby redrobot » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:16 am

Common logic


if i understand this right, common logic is the cultural consensus at any given moment in time. like when the earth was flat.

LotR is not supposed to be a history, it's supposed to be a mythology.


am sure ive read a quote from a letter by JRRT on this forum in the last few days where the author says that he gave up on the idea of it being a mythology. my main problem is that without it having a credible place in our history it isnt credible as a mythology. it floats around the timeline between umbrellas and viking long houses. how am i supposed to believe any of it? and if i arent supposed to believe in it's possibility then isnt it just fiction. i wd say all mythology must then be fiction except that the greeks believed their mythology to be real - zeus actually existed . maybe then it wasnt a mythology, only becoming so later when we had stopped believing in golden fleeces and the like.
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Re: body fascism

Postby siddharth » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:21 am

Any of which is irrelevant to the fact that lithe men and women can be and actually are skilled fighters even against more larger and brutal opponents.
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Re: body fascism

Postby redrobot » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:25 am

Any of which is irrelevant to the fact that lithe men and women can be and actually are skilled fighters even against more larger and brutal opponents.


that's just destructiveness for what i assume is some sort of rivalry. youre an academic arent you.
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Re: body fascism

Postby siddharth » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:31 am

I'm not. I'm a student in fact.
And you're still going around without any actual points to make. So I shall cease here on this.

:)
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