justice

What do you think of Tolkien on the silver screen...? Whether Bakshi, Jackson, or whoever else, come on in and discuss your reflections, opinions, and memories...

justice

Postby redrobot » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:53 pm

most of the realms in middle earth are kingdoms and kings are there to exercise justice when necessary. the shire however is not a kingdom. how is justice dispensed there? if pippin and merry had been caught stealing carrots what wd have happened. if smiegel had been a hobbit and murdered his fishing companion on a hobbiton riverbank what wd have happened if he'd been caught? the hobbits seem to operate without government. without law. anarchist hobbits?
redrobot
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby RoseMorninStar » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:02 pm

The Thain would setting disputes if needed & was considered the military authority in the Shire. "The Hobbits first chose a Thain to "hold the authority of the king" when Arvedui, last King of Arnor, was lost and the kingship in the North discontinued."
User avatar
RoseMorninStar
Ringbearer


 
Posts: 12795
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 10:34 pm
Location: North Shire
Top

Re: justice

Postby redrobot » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:36 pm

SO WAS THAT A HOBBIT THAIN, A HOBBIT KING? authority seems at odds with the hobbit character.
redrobot
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby RoseMorninStar » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:38 pm

Holding the authority of the King and being a King are two different things. There were also Shirriffs and a Mayor.

"The position of Shirriff was a voluntary honor. There were a total of twelve Shirriffs, three for each Farthing, though more could be called up in time of need (as happened around TA 3001). The only thing that differentiated Shirriffs from other Hobbits was a feather they were given to wear in their hats. The Shirriffs carried no arms or armament of any sort and wore no uniform. There was also a 'Master of Buckland'.

Some time after returning from the war of the Ring (and the Scouring of the Shire) Peregrin 'Pippin' Took inherited the title/office of Thain from his father, becoming the 32nd Thain of the Shire. He held that position for 50+ years.
User avatar
RoseMorninStar
Ringbearer


 
Posts: 12795
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 10:34 pm
Location: North Shire
Top

Re: justice

Postby redrobot » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:57 am

was the king of arnor a hobbit?
redrobot
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby siddharth » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:31 am

User avatar
siddharth
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 4148
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:13 am
Location: ===Always changing===
Top

Re: justice

Postby redrobot » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:20 am

link doesnt tell me if king was a hobbit
redrobot
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby siddharth » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:31 am

Oh it can't tell you, you'll have to read it.
User avatar
siddharth
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 4148
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:13 am
Location: ===Always changing===
Top

Re: justice

Postby redrobot » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:54 am

read the book you mean? the gateway doesnt say if the kings were men or otherwise. experts taking knowledge for granted. not helpful.
redrobot
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby heliona » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:09 am

The King was a Man.
Image<-- Sir Gwaine representing the letter "G" in the TVM!

Life is short; break the rules, forgive quickly; kiss slowly; love truly; laugh uncontrollably; and never regret anything that made you smile. Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.

Grab a chance and you won't be sorry for the might-have-beens. - Arthur Ransome

Just because I have the vocabulary of a well-educated sailor doesn't mean I'm not a lady.

In Memoriam EDW - March 14th 2009
In Memoriam rowanberry - March 1st 2014 (~In Memoriam AHH - Alfred Lord Tennyson~)

Photos: My Flickr Photo Collections & Wee Nell - the furry ball of mischief!


(I occasionally post as White Shadow - you've been warned!)

New posters, there's a Welcome and Comprehensive Guide to the Messageboard to answer your questions.
User avatar
heliona
The Sexy One ~ Hellaciously Huggable


 
Posts: 10497
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 11:14 am
Location: Atop a sunny hill
Top

Re: justice

Postby redrobot » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:17 am

ok, so hobbits were subject to a king who was a man. are there any other examples of one race subjugating another?
redrobot
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby wilko185 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:54 pm

"Subjugate" (= place under the yoke) is not actually a derivative of "subject" (= that which is placed under).

Anyway, in the context of the film universe (bearing in mind which forum we are in), these are not readily answerable questions. Your ideas about whether there might be off-screen lynch mobs or despots are as valid as anyone else's. Go nuts!

However, if you want to move to the book world, then we have a lot of explaining to do :)
User avatar
wilko185
Mariner

 
Posts: 8306
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 2:10 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby redrobot » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:13 pm

the subjugate thing was a personal statement as i consider all regal systems to be subjugation. someone more privileged and powerful than another based on accident of birth? i think not. i wd probably give the books a go if i thought i cd succeed in reading them.

at present i'm committing the heresy of trying to use book details to illuminate film questions
redrobot
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby heliona » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:26 pm

Have you tried audiobooks? I've found that sometimes I can concentrate more on the subject matter if I hear it than read it. Just curious. It perhaps might be a way to discover the nuances found in books that are open to individual interpretation and imagination and thus can't be explained by another to one's satisfaction.
Image<-- Sir Gwaine representing the letter "G" in the TVM!

Life is short; break the rules, forgive quickly; kiss slowly; love truly; laugh uncontrollably; and never regret anything that made you smile. Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.

Grab a chance and you won't be sorry for the might-have-beens. - Arthur Ransome

Just because I have the vocabulary of a well-educated sailor doesn't mean I'm not a lady.

In Memoriam EDW - March 14th 2009
In Memoriam rowanberry - March 1st 2014 (~In Memoriam AHH - Alfred Lord Tennyson~)

Photos: My Flickr Photo Collections & Wee Nell - the furry ball of mischief!


(I occasionally post as White Shadow - you've been warned!)

New posters, there's a Welcome and Comprehensive Guide to the Messageboard to answer your questions.
User avatar
heliona
The Sexy One ~ Hellaciously Huggable


 
Posts: 10497
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 11:14 am
Location: Atop a sunny hill
Top

Re: justice

Postby redrobot » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:43 pm

hmm. not sure i wd like the intermediary of an actor tho it wd be a way to assimilate the text without having to read it. perhaps i shd buy a copy of one of the books and see how i do.
redrobot
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby heliona » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:06 pm

I too have been wary of actors' voices putting me off listening to audiobooks, but the copies I've heard of Tolkien's works (various copies of The Hobbit, LotR, and The Silmarillion) weren't bad and was pleasantly surprised. It is fortunately only one reader narrating the entire book. I can't get through the BBC radio dramatisation of Lord of the Rings although other people say it is excellent.

It might be worth a try - I find audiobooks rather relaxing. :)
Image<-- Sir Gwaine representing the letter "G" in the TVM!

Life is short; break the rules, forgive quickly; kiss slowly; love truly; laugh uncontrollably; and never regret anything that made you smile. Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.

Grab a chance and you won't be sorry for the might-have-beens. - Arthur Ransome

Just because I have the vocabulary of a well-educated sailor doesn't mean I'm not a lady.

In Memoriam EDW - March 14th 2009
In Memoriam rowanberry - March 1st 2014 (~In Memoriam AHH - Alfred Lord Tennyson~)

Photos: My Flickr Photo Collections & Wee Nell - the furry ball of mischief!


(I occasionally post as White Shadow - you've been warned!)

New posters, there's a Welcome and Comprehensive Guide to the Messageboard to answer your questions.
User avatar
heliona
The Sexy One ~ Hellaciously Huggable


 
Posts: 10497
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 11:14 am
Location: Atop a sunny hill
Top

Re: justice

Postby redrobot » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:24 pm

I find audiobooks rather relaxing.


and i find the company of other people - actor's voices included - start to give me hellish visions after a little while.
redrobot
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby RoseMorninStar » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:07 pm

heliona wrote:
It might be worth a try - I find audiobooks rather relaxing. :)
Perhaps too relaxing, especially if well read in a pleasant voice. It would make me drowsy. I know people who really enjoy listening to audio books in the car, but I absorb much better through tactile or visual disciplines, audio being my poorest form of taking in anything.
User avatar
RoseMorninStar
Ringbearer


 
Posts: 12795
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 10:34 pm
Location: North Shire
Top

Re: justice

Postby heliona » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:56 am

redrobot wrote:and i find the company of other people - actor's voices included - start to give me hellish visions after a little while.


Okay then. I was only trying to help with that suggestion.

Rose, I find that too, at least when I'm in bed. An audiobook will send me off to sleep. (I used to listen to Nicol Williamson's version of The Hobbit all the time - it was abridged and was nice and short.) Although I've listened to The Silmarillion in the car and that was brilliant.

Anyway, this is off topic. Perhaps we should start a thread about audiobooks in the Books forum.
Image<-- Sir Gwaine representing the letter "G" in the TVM!

Life is short; break the rules, forgive quickly; kiss slowly; love truly; laugh uncontrollably; and never regret anything that made you smile. Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.

Grab a chance and you won't be sorry for the might-have-beens. - Arthur Ransome

Just because I have the vocabulary of a well-educated sailor doesn't mean I'm not a lady.

In Memoriam EDW - March 14th 2009
In Memoriam rowanberry - March 1st 2014 (~In Memoriam AHH - Alfred Lord Tennyson~)

Photos: My Flickr Photo Collections & Wee Nell - the furry ball of mischief!


(I occasionally post as White Shadow - you've been warned!)

New posters, there's a Welcome and Comprehensive Guide to the Messageboard to answer your questions.
User avatar
heliona
The Sexy One ~ Hellaciously Huggable


 
Posts: 10497
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 11:14 am
Location: Atop a sunny hill
Top

Re: justice

Postby wilko185 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:37 am

redrobot wrote:the subjugate thing was a personal statement as i consider all regal systems to be subjugation.

Ok, but my point was just that this is indeed just your own view. Kingship doesn't generally or necessarily imply "subjugation", and it's certainly not a position that the books or films hold. So to ask "are there any other examples of one race subjugating another?" is begging the question.

As to the identity of the mysterious King, I thought the title of film 3 was a bit of a clue? :)

If it makes you feel any better, at the end of the book we learn that Aragorn makes a law forbidding Men to enter the Shire:
.. some hobbit or other wrote:Our King, we call him; and when he comes north to his house in Annuminas restored and stays for a while by Lake Evendim, then everyone in the Shire is glad. But he does not enter this land and binds himself by the law that he has made, that none of the Big People shall pass its borders.
User avatar
wilko185
Mariner

 
Posts: 8306
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 2:10 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby redrobot » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:25 am

Kingship doesn't generally or necessarily imply "subjugation",


it always does to me. the free dicionary defines subjugation in the following way -

1. To bring under control, especially by military force; conquer.
2. To make subordinate or subject to the dominion of something else:


a king's subjects are always controlled and made subordinate. the very essence of kingship is that it relies on the subordination of others.

i take it that you mean happy citizens supporting their king are not subjugatred. they are. they just dont mind
redrobot
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby wilko185 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:33 am

So which definition are you using? When you say "subjugate", people will naturally assume you mean the primary definition. To my mind that doesn't apply to all cases of kingship, in particular the one under discussion. If you actually meant the secondary definition then you are being a bit misleading, and are really just giving a tautology: i.e. kings rule over people, by definition.

redrobot, I hope you don't take offence at the following observations, but ... from this thread and also some others of yours that I've read, I think your particular approach to what is essentially a fantasy story is piling up problems for you. You are not a monarchist, so monarchy in Middle-earth is wrong; you have a view on what an English mythlogy should look like, so Tolkien's mythology (which is merely dedicated "to" England btw, it's not strictly meant to be English per se) is inconsistent; you don't eat meat, so eating meat in Middle-earth is wrong; you see a health and safety issue when people eat bread in the wrong way, so ... etc. If you don't at least to some degree let go of your own positions and buy into the world of the story, you're going to be constantly butting heads with the author/filmaker. Escapism isn't the whole point of the experience, but it's a definite element that I wonder if you're missing out on in some way.
User avatar
wilko185
Mariner

 
Posts: 8306
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 2:10 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby redrobot » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:42 pm

you are being a bit misleading


i am using language accurately to describe a situation. i realise it is a fine point of understanding, which is why i have explained it.

kings rule over people, by definition


and they have armies to enforce that rule, hence subjugation. it is not subjugation by bloody force, it is subjugation by threat of force or by tradition and institutionalisation. a hungry peasant will always be subjugated by his well fed, jewel encrusted king.


escapism


i watched the films as escapism and in some ways it succeeded and in others it didnt, nmamle when the suspension of disbelief was broken by something poorly done or obnoxious etc. the films turn on the idea of charming mild mannered hobbits yet i cd see from the bacon references and the pig being dragged tro hobbiton that pig slaughter - with ye olde knife to the throat - wd have to be a shire reality, that hobbits were not in fact mild mannered , by force of consequence, but happy little animal killers. and that fact turns them into something else. cynical, ruthless, callous.

of course i watch movies informed by my cultural knowledge and views. the factr that you arent appalled by the hobbits' diet just shows your own extremism which is made to seem un-extreme by the fact it is a majority view. i am pointing out that the majority is wrong.
redrobot
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby Aravar » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:22 pm

redrobot wrote:. a hungry peasant will always be subjugated by his well fed, jewel encrusted king.




Especially if the peasant's only eating vegetables, while the king has ample, nutritious, sources of animal protein.
User avatar
Aravar
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 3163
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 8:57 am
Top

Re: justice

Postby redrobot » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:18 pm

Especially if the peasant's only eating vegetables, while the king has ample, nutritious, sources of animal protein.


yes, vegetables are far lower in protein - 3g / 100g for spinach, 36g / 100g for beef.

but processing vegetables can vastly increase protein content so that tofu for example has the same protein content as beef. tofu has been around for 2000 years so ancient cultures were capable of creating high protein vegetable foods. and these days peasants can go to holland and barrett and get protein supplements

Vegan Protein Powder
The best Vegan Protein Powders in the UK. Our ultra-premium quality vegan proteins come in a vast range of sizes at the very best prices in the UK. We manufacture everything 100% in house in our own state of the art manufacturing facility, guaranteeing exceptional quality and cutting out the middle man to ensure incredible prices. Over the last 12 months we have been featured multiple times as one of the UK's fastest growing sports nutrition companies, with a range of over 800 ultra-premium quality products manufactured right here in Manchester using only the highest quality ingredients.
Last edited by redrobot on Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
redrobot
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby wilko185 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:29 pm

RR: The point of language generally, and the point of us posting on this board, is to effectively communicate our ideas, so that we may then understand each other, and perhap learn something or change each others minds. In the specific example of what you mean by the word "subjugate", when pressed you have presented two dictionary definitions of the word, and then left me to guess from context that you mean the less obvious one. So .. no, you've not been very accurate.

By the way, the way you define "extremism" - which seems to be "distant from redrobot's point of view", instead of the more usual "distant from the norm" - kind of illustrates my point about how you seem to be viewing everything, even fictional things, purely in reference to your own morality with no allowances for other perspectives.
User avatar
wilko185
Mariner

 
Posts: 8306
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 2:10 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby White Shadow » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:33 pm

redrobot, if your posting about Vegan Protein Powder was in response to a specific post, then please indicate it, perhaps by quoting what you are specifically replying to. Posting as you have done makes it seem as though you are posting merely to advertise, which is not allowed on this messageboard.

~~~~
White Shadow

White Council Moderator
User avatar
White Shadow
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2000 1:00 am
Top

Re: justice

Postby redrobot » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:49 pm

protein powder post amended
redrobot
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Top

Re: justice

Postby White Shadow » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:06 pm

Thank you, that is much better.

~~~~
White Shadow

White Council Moderator
User avatar
White Shadow
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2000 1:00 am
Top

Re: justice

Postby oldtoby » Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:58 am

i am pointing out that the majority is wrong.


If eating meat is wrong, baby, I don't wanna be right. :wink:
User avatar
oldtoby
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 15261
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2002 10:40 pm
Top

Next

Return to Movies - Lord of the Rings

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests