Spoilers from the Photo Guide

What do you think of Tolkien on the silver screen...? Whether Bakshi, Jackson, Amazon, BBC radio play, or whoever else, come on in and discuss your reflections, opinions, and memories...

Postby Mithfânion » Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:34 pm

<i>Looking at the music titles in the soundtrack album, one can make out most of the film's sequence -- but no indication of a "Flotsam and Jetsam" or "Voice of Saruman" musical piece</i><BR><BR>True, yet on the other hand, the tracks don't seem to be listed in chronological order either. They don't follow the storyline of the books. Helm's Deep is actually a track listed in the middle, whereas you say that the scene itself should actually end 10 minutes before closing time.
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Postby aninkling » Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:41 pm

<i>Did I somehw miss him/her/it in the books each of the 7 or 8 times I've read it?</i><BR><BR>Foghorn,<BR>No, you didn't miss anything. Aragorn's own horse in the books is named Roheryn and as far as I know, it didn't come from Rohan. (The Rangers bring it from the North with them when they come.) And Hasufel was the horse Eomer lent to him. I suppose a plain old horse without any role in the story isn't good enough for Aragorn <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-rolleyes.gif"border=0> - hence, Brego.<BR><BR>I agree that Brego sounds funny, but I think I know where it comes from. Brego was the King of Rohan who finished Meduseld - his son Baldor is the one they found in the Paths of the Dead.<BR><BR>Edit: On second thought, I wonder if Roheryn did originally come from Rohan. The obvious similarities in the names...<BR>
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Postby davidm » Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:44 pm

<i>the tracks don't seem to be listed in chronological order either. They don't follow the storyline of the books. Helm's Deep is actually a track listed in the middle, whereas you say that the scene itself should actually end 10 minutes before closing time. </i><BR><BR>I believe the tracks follow the storyline of the film -- just like the FOTR soundtrack.<BR><BR>I believe that the Helm's Deep theme is for the arrival at Helm's Deep, not the battle of the Hornburg: <a target=new href="http://www.tolkienonline.com/docs/7753.html">http://www.tolkienonline.com/docs/7753.html</a><BR><BR>I'm trying to dig up where I read that the Battle of Helm's Deep ends about ten minutes before the end of the films, but I'm checking through my saved links and can't find the reference. Does anyone else remember hearing this?
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Postby Dave_LF » Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:54 pm

<i>I think it's pretty clear by now that the "Voice of Saruman" scene will not come until the third film.</i><BR><BR>Moved to ROTK, or cut completely? All along we've been afraid that Saruman would die on the RSWD toward the end of TTT, but perhaps that scene was never meant to take place until the journey home.
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Postby Nilson_The_White » Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:07 pm

<i>Does anyone else remember hearing this?</i><BR><BR>This was mentioned in the Fan Club interview with PJ. You can read it <a target=new href="http://www.tolkienonline.com/docs/7659.html">HERE</a>.
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Postby Queen_Beruthiel » Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:12 pm

<i>Iavas - Prego means "You're welcome" in Italian. It's also a spaghetti sauce brand here in the US. Latest rumor: Brego's head will be found in Aragorn's bed in ROTK.</i><BR><BR>LOL vynaca; lavas will like this change. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> Actually I do too. Well, we know that Deagol sleeps with the fishes. <BR><BR><i>I'm trying to dig up where I read that the Battle of Helm's Deep ends about ten minutes before the end of the films, but I'm checking through my saved links and can't find the reference. Does anyone else remember hearing this? </i><BR><BR>Wasn't it in the Fangoria article a week or two ago?<BR><BR>
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Postby TheRock » Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:22 pm

The evidence is starting to suggest that the Voice of Saruman is moved to ROTK. We would have heard something by now if it was in TTT. I also think it may be moved to the end of ROTK after the ring is destroyed because we know Aragorn is using the palantir at MT, so he might not need Saruman's. Either way, I'm guessing PJ might not be around to edit ROTK.<BR><BR>RIP Mr. Jackson - Purists from Tolkien Online
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Postby Feline » Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:35 pm

I think it was either Jersey or Leo* who said that the scene where Pippin looks into the palantír was in. So the Voice of Saruman would have to be at the end of TTT or early on in RotK. But then of course, this info is very likely from an old script, so anything is possible. Unfortunately.
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Postby Iavas_Saar » Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:56 pm

<i>As Nienna points out, this is completely contradictory. I cannot believe this. In the books Legolas flat-out states that he has reconciled himself with the absence of his people because they themselves have wars to fight. PJ simply turns this around and makes him someone who feels betrayed. The sheer gal of it!</i><BR><BR>I don't think it's "completely contradictory", because in the book Legolas doesn't seem to show any emotion about it either way. PJ is adding an emotion, but he's not contradicting an already existing one. If the book Legolas was clearly feeling great pride for his people at that moment then you would have more of a point. Also, IF the film Legolas has no idea that the other elvish lands are under attack, then he would be more likely to wonder about a lack of aid.<BR><BR><BR><i>This is one of those really silly, relatively small changes that get on one's nerves. Similar to Gandalf's diminished role in several parts of the first film. Like him being the one who is desperately trying to avoid entering Moria while in the book it is precisely Gandalf who keeps pushing to enter Moria. Sigh.</i><BR><BR>I bet in all cases where you feel Gandalfs role was diminished that a) the effect on his overall character was minimal and b) I could give you the cinematic reasons for why it was done. Gandalf is seen as an absolute triumph by those who aren't obsessed with the details and look at the overall way that he comes across. (In this particular case, if Gandalf knows there is a Balrog in Moria, why would he think that was the best way to go?)
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Postby The_Mormegil » Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:57 pm

There's a picture in the "Making of" book of Grima lying on the floor of Orthanc with a knife in his hand and a look of rage on his face.<BR><BR>Wasn't Saruman having his throat cut at Orthanc one of his rumoured deaths?<BR><BR>Of course as it's the "Making of the Trilogy", that pic, even if it is in a film could be in RotK.
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Postby Telemachos » Wed Nov 06, 2002 6:12 pm

If the Voice of Saruman is contained within ROTK, why the problem? Much as I'd like to see it in TTT, the first priority (IMHO) is having it at all.
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Postby Fatty_B » Wed Nov 06, 2002 6:14 pm

Well some interesting things cropping up. Though as someone mentioned these books would have been started months ago.<BR><BR>I think for this one we are really going to have to detach the book from the movie. The changes are going to be huge from what I can see.<BR><BR>The Farmir thing really does irk me though. The Aragorn nearly getting killed by Wargs sounds like an excuse for PJ to pretned someone is dead again and to get some of those big cgi bits in.<BR><BR>What really annoys me is that it makes it a real pain to do summaries andsuch on websites ;-) Since all you get is endless emails with peopel saying that is wrong it is not in the book...heheh<BR><BR>I do want to see this map of the battle though. Sewers hmmm well fair enough.....but why! I am thinking that he had to break up all that travelling through Ithilien etc. Might read well but on the big screen one hillside looks like another.<BR><BR>As for the voice. They might well leave that to the very end of RotK, could work. Just leave Saruman sitting in his Tower after defeat. I think I will need to badger some people, I can see the flames of the purists rising over this lot of news.
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Postby Diamond of Long Cleeve » Wed Nov 06, 2002 6:29 pm

I'm used to the changes and have (almost) ceased to be shocked by them. Here are some of my reactions to today's news, having purchased the Photo Guide, the TTT Visual Companion and the LOTR Movie Guide:<BR><BR>- Faramir showing Frodo and Sam how to get out of Osgiliath through the <b>sewers</b>? What is this, 'The Shawshank Redemption'? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>- Aragorn and Brego. Hmmm. Sounds a bit ... Brego the Wonderhorse. <BR><BR>- The whole deal with Faramir. Well, this could work. It probably will.<BR><BR>- Arwen and Eowyn will not meet on screen. Bite me if they do. But I bet they won't (thank goodness!)<BR><BR>- Treebeard looks utterly AMAZING. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>- Ditto Gollum. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>- Miranda Otto is going to rock as Eowyn. As if we didn't know.<BR><BR>- I am kind of perturbed at PJ filling TTT with 'new stuff' when he could have just got on with the action as in the book and left time for Shelob at the end ... grumble grumble.<BR><BR>- But the stuff with Frodo Sam and Gollum sounds tremendously promising. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> <BR><BR>- Grima looks too obviously evil. Fantastic makeup as always, absolutely amazing ... but did he have to be so obviously slimy and revolting? In the book he has a 'pale wise face'. Somebody with a revolting personality doesn't have to look physically repulsive. Although I don't find Tolkien's treatment of Grima terribly subtle either, I must admit, esp. in the later part of the story. All the same, I occasionally find PJ's visuals too in-yer-face (as impressive as they are).<BR><BR>My biggest grumble with TTT is probably going to be ... not enough Frodo and Sam. <BR><BR>
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Postby Iavas_Saar » Wed Nov 06, 2002 6:32 pm

<i>The Aragorn nearly getting killed by Wargs sounds like an excuse for PJ to pretned someone is dead again</i><BR><BR>Despite the fact that it does make for good cinema, I'm sure there will be other benefits. An obvious one is seeing how Eowyn copes with the news.<BR><BR><BR><i>If the Voice of Saruman is contained within ROTK, why the problem? Much as I'd like to see it in TTT, the first priority (IMHO) is having it at all.</i><BR><BR>I agree. Though I am a bit worried ROTK will be a bit slow to get going if they have to deal with Saruman first before the attention turns to Minas Tirith.
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Wed Nov 06, 2002 6:33 pm

<i>b) I could give you the cinematic reasons for why it was done.</i><BR><BR>Since when have you been unable to do that for <i>anything</i>, Iavas?
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Postby Iavas_Saar » Wed Nov 06, 2002 6:41 pm

<i>Since when have you been unable to do that for anything, Iavas?</i><BR><BR>Since Peter Jackson made Aragorn lodge a flaming brand in a nazguls head? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><BR><BR><BR>Di,<BR><BR><i>I am kind of perturbed at PJ filling TTT with 'new stuff' when he could have just got on with the action as in the book and left time for Shelob at the end ... grumble grumble.</i><BR><BR>and<BR><BR><i>My biggest grumble with TTT is probably going to be ... not enough Frodo and Sam.</i><BR><BR>But if Shelob was in TTT, then you would be left pretty Frodo/Sam deficient in ROTK instead.. so would you rather grumble about a lack of Frodo/Sam in TTT, or in ROTK? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby EuroGollum » Wed Nov 06, 2002 6:47 pm

"The Voice of Saruman" moved to the end of ROTK? A most interesting and plausible theory, based on what we know so far.<BR><BR>But I'm still hoping to see it at the end of TTT - It would provide such a powerful dramatic ending to the movie, so it would really suprise me to see PJ let such a great way of ending TTT slip through his fingers. But I will wait until I see the movie to make my judgement.
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Postby Uber-Monkey » Wed Nov 06, 2002 6:53 pm

Moving the Voice Of Saruman to the end of ROTK is plausible. But how then do Merry & Pippin meet up with the rest of the company?<BR><BR>Then again the information in the new guides could be wrong, not to mention having left certain details out. I know the FOTR ones were pretty shocking in places.
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Postby Ethel » Wed Nov 06, 2002 7:31 pm

Erk! Peter Jackson is raping the text!<BR><BR>Oh, honestly, I can live with most of it. It's the change to Faramir's character that really gets up my nose. "Not if I found it lying by the road... " Ha! Not until I drag you to Osgiliath with every intention of taking the ring to Minas Tirith, argue with you for a while, and send you off through the sewers...<BR><BR>We are <i>not</i> amused.
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Postby jsavfusco » Wed Nov 06, 2002 7:54 pm

<BR> The change to Faramir's character doesn't bother me. One of the premises of Lotr is that there are few in Middle Earth who can really resist the corruption and temptation of the Ring for any length of time. Even Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, etc are afraid to use it or bear it. If Faramir easily resists the Ring in the movie, I suppose it might give the impression that perhaps the Hobbits, and Frodo in particular, aren't so special after all, detracting from their importance to the story. After all, if Faramir, a brave, strong soldier of Gondor can resist the Ring so easily, audiences might wondert why he shouldn't take it. He would certainly stand to have a better chance to make it through Mordor than Frodo. The Hobbits great strength over men is their innocence, and I think this is PJ's way of demonstrating that. <BR><BR> So, this is one change that makes sense to me.<BR><BR>
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Postby Dave_LF » Wed Nov 06, 2002 8:29 pm

If The Voice of Saruman has indeed been moved or cut, I suppose Gandalf or Treebeard (or Eomer?) will have to bring Merry and Pippin from Isengard to Helm's Deep at the very end of the battle. If Pippin needs to have the palantir, he or Gandalf could procure it during or right after the ent attack.
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Postby smeagolpoop » Wed Nov 06, 2002 8:58 pm

I'm not much for participating in the endless kindergarten-esque "arguments" (in the Monty Python sense of the word) between the purists and revisionists, but the absurd reek of purist nonsense in many of the responses in this thread has reached such an unbearable level, that I feel compelled to say just one thing: thank you, Iavas, for your constant, patient, enduring testimony to level-headedness, open-mindedness, and artistic sensibility. Your gift for seeing beyond any particular method of presentation or media to what truly matters is inspiring. Whether LOTR is experienced as literature or film, it is caught up in the greater drama of the human race and its quest for Truth through art, and that quest is not bound by any particular author's work (or film maker's, for that matter!). To fixate on one expression or understanding of LOTR, even to the point of identifying oneself or ones value as a human being and person on that expression or understanding, is like the blind man fanatically describing an elephant as being like a snake and nothing else after only feeling its trunk. Open your minds and hearts, people, to explore all the riches and possibilities that LOTR, like all great art, offers, which is so much greater than any one work, whether book or film, can ever hope to do. Thank you again, Iavas, for being our artistic conscience, and please keep up the good work.
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Wed Nov 06, 2002 9:14 pm

<i>thank you, Iavas, for your constant, patient, enduring testimony to level-headedness, open-mindedness, and artistic sensibility.</i><BR><BR>I was just about to say something nice to Iavas when I read this.<BR><BR>What? Since when does being a ultra-Revisionist mean that you're "level-headed", "open-minded", and have "artistic sensibility"? I am not, in any way, shape, or form, implying that Purists are the above (we all know they are not), but Revisionists (the King of them All included) aren't either. Sorry. That's nonsense. Except for the occasional hard-line middle-of-the-wayer, we're all about equally bull-headed.
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Postby RangerSmith » Wed Nov 06, 2002 9:33 pm

What bothers me the most about the Aragorn/Brego deal is the already plethora of near deaths in this trilogy. Did PJ really need to add another one needlessly? You have Frodo on weathertop and Moria, Gandalf in kazad-dum, Sam's near drowning, now Aragorn, then Frodo again with Shelob and possibly Aragorn once more on the paths of the dead if things keep going this way. Sooner or later the audience will just say "Pffft, not again!?!" Aragorn/Brego as it stands is just overkill imo but perhaps it will play out differently on screen.
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Wed Nov 06, 2002 9:36 pm

Off of that rant:<BR><BR>Di: I don't miss book-Boromir. I don't even miss book-Aragorn, although I don't much like movie-Aragorn any better. But it sure as hell looks like I'm going to miss book-Faramir a lot.<BR><BR><i>"But fear no more! I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo. War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory.<BR>...<BR>"Alas for Boromir! It was too sore a trial! How you have increased my sorrow, you two strange wanderers from a far country, bearing the peril of Men! But you are less judges of Men than I of Halflings. We are truth-speakers, we men of Gondor. We boast seldom, and then perform, or die in the attempt. </i>Not if I found on the highway would I take it<i> I said. Even if I were such a man as to desire this thing, and even though I knew not clearly what this thing was when I spoke, still I should take those words as a vow, and be held by them."</i><BR><BR>David what-his-name better work damn hard at making up for this. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0>
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Postby ElfStar » Wed Nov 06, 2002 10:26 pm

I don't think the voice of Saruman could logically fit into the structure of RotK. And why take out a perfect climax... of course, that's what I said about Shelob. <i>sigh</i><BR><BR>I just hope that all this moving of stuff to RotK doesn't make it rediculousy top-heavy and end up making PJ sacrifice important scenes because he had all this stuff from TTT he still had to finish.
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Postby Prozac_Loki » Thu Nov 07, 2002 12:59 am

<i>I suppose Gandalf or Treebeard (or Eomer?) will have to bring Merry and Pippin from Isengard to Helm's Deep at the very end of the battle.</i><BR><BR>Hm... interesting theory! Do you guys remember in the very first theatrical trailer we saw Merry kneeling to Theoden atop Helms Deep? Edoras was quite full at the time, so that MUST have been post-HD before they road off to Minas Tirith. <BR>
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Postby Diamond of Long Cleeve » Thu Nov 07, 2002 2:16 am

<i>But if Shelob was in TTT, then you would be left pretty Frodo/Sam deficient in ROTK instead.. so would you rather grumble about a lack of Frodo/Sam in TTT, or in ROTK? </i><BR><BR>Good grief Iavas. If you honestly believe that the story of ROTK is 'Frodo and Sam' deficient, then there's nothing more to be said on that subject. PJ has a hell of a lot to pack into his third film, that's all I can say, even without the Scouring. <BR><BR>Nienna, I igreatly prefer Film Boromir to Book Boromir and I can live with Film Aragorn's peculiar attitude to his heritage, esp. as he is younger and handsomer and sexy as heck. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>But Faramir, ah Faramir, hmmm ... I don't think ANY actor could do my Private Imaginary Faramir justice, Nienna. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> And there's no denying this whole Osgiliath affair is a major change to Faramir's character. (Sob <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> ). But I'm looking forward to David Wenham doing his best to incarnate the noble Captain. His performance may yet win our hearts. Let's hope so.<BR><BR>PJ said a long time ago that he had upped the ante with the Frodo/Sam/Faramir confrontation. No kidding!!!!
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Postby Gungnir » Thu Nov 07, 2002 2:41 am

<b>Having fallen in battle with Sharku, Aragorn is barely alive. As he struggles to get up, an unexpected champion comes to his aid.<BR><BR>"Brego...?"</b><BR><BR>Good grief!<BR><BR>Di said it for me above - this is straight from "Champion the Wonder Horse".<BR><BR><b>"What is it Brego - Orcs? How many?"<BR>(Brego stomps his hoof 10,000 times)<BR>"Ten thousand strong?"</b>
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Postby TheLidlessEyes » Thu Nov 07, 2002 2:51 am

So Frodo, Sam and Gollum escape through the sewers.<BR><BR>That's nice. That's uncommonly nice.<BR><BR>It's about time my mind had some company.
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