What if question about Silmaril

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What if question about Silmaril

Postby eldar-flower » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:25 pm

Hello, everyone.
New here.
I have a what if question and would like to know your opinion.
If Feanor survived, and he was still there when Luthien and Beren got one silmaril back.
Will Feanor have a right to ask Thingol for his silmaril?
I imagine he has because he is the creator. Everybody knows they are his.
And Thingol was bloody wrong to ask for a silmaril as bride price. He was just too greedy and arrogant.
You do not ask your future son-in-law to give you something which actually not his as a bride price.
True, Morgoth stole it, but that does not make silmaril belong to Beren or Thingol, or available to public.
Thingol is at least partially responsible for all the mess later. He is such a petty person.

But then, if Feanor ask for his jewel, will Thingol give it back?
Probably not because that is the corrupting power of Silmaril, which seems to apply to everyone, good or bad.
Then they will have to fight, an open war. Is this a kinslaying?
let say Feanor somehow put his hands on his creation, will silmaril burn Feanor?
Did he lose ownership because of that kinslaying?
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Re: What if question about Silmaril

Postby Eldorion » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:49 pm

Thingol did not seriously ask for the Silmaril as a bride price. It was a way of getting rid of the problem of Beren and Lúthien wanting to marry by setting a though-to-be impossible task as the precondition, since he had sworn not to kill or imprison Beren.

I don't think that stealing something from a thief is not a valid transfer of property rights, but I doubt Thingol would have returned the Silmaril, both because of the effect the Silmaril tends to have on people (as you mention) and because of Thingol's dislike of the Noldor. As for whether the First Kinslaying meant that Fëanor no longer had any right to the Silmarils, I doubt that Noldorin property law would account for something like that (if they even had property law per se, though Doriath wouldn't have had the same legal system anyway), but if the question is whether Fëanor had any moral right, then it's really a matter of opinion. There's certainly a case to be made there (Morgoth certainly had no rights to them).

If Fëanor had attacked Doriath it would have been a Kinslaying. The Second Kinslaying occurred when the Sons of Fëanor attacked Doriath and the Third when they attacked the survivors of Doriath at the Mouths of Sirion, both times in pursuit of the Silmaril taken by Beren and Lúthien.
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Re: What if question about Silmaril

Postby Otaku-sempai » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:29 am

Eldorion wrote:I don't think that stealing something from a thief is not a valid transfer of property rights...

Okay, I'm a little confused. You DO think that stealing something from a thief IS a valid transfer of property rights? Or you have no firm opinion?

Or did you mean the opposite of what you actually wrote: that the silmaril should still be considered the rightful property of Fëanor (or his heirs, as Fëanor had perished by this point)?
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Re: What if question about Silmaril

Postby Eldorion » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:15 am

The double negative was a mistake resulting from incompletely editing the sentence. My opinion is that legally speaking the Silmaril remained Fëanor's/his heirs'.
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Re: What if question about Silmaril

Postby Otaku-sempai » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:32 am

Going back to the OP, yes, I agree that it would have been within Fëanor's rights (or the rights of his sons) to demand the return of the silmaril recovered by Beren. I do seriously question if Thingol would have returned the jewel if asked. Regardless of his personal feelings about the gem itself, King Thingol might well have thought that Fëanor had relinquished any claim on the silmarils as a result of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë.

And I also agree with the notion that Fëanor's obsession and his subsequent actions had tainted his soul to the point where he could not have held one of the silmarils without being burned by it. We might indeed interpret that as meaning that he had lost his claim on the jewels.
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