Lord of The Rings..a reading group

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Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Witchwench » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:11 pm

Now that the fervor of the movies have come and gone...it is time.


!! ATTENTION we are starting with the first three chapters Long Expected Party thru Three is Company!! this will give everyone time to get on board...if you are coming later, feel free to jump in anytime!!!


$$$====below was written prior to starting back at the beginning to get more peeps on board
I'll be honest, I haven't picked up the novels in over 25 years..close to 30. I first read them in 1978 and re read them..but my friends it has been awhile.

I have recently picked them up and restarted to read them, although my eyes are much older, I am reading them with fresh eyes of wonder...I am currently in the house of Tom and Goldberry..which is how I found my way back to my online home: TORC.

I was thinking of how Tom and Goldberry sounded like an immortal Adam and Eve..

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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Tookish_Traveler » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:09 pm

You have a head start on me!!!! I shall pick up the books again. :D
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Witchwench » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:32 pm

get cracking Tooks!!

I have re-assesed my original thought that Tom and Goldberry are LOTR's version of Adam and Even..with one line that Tolkien wrote.

When asked by Frodo what Tom was..Goldberry pipes up and says "He is"..

Now JRRT was a Christian..and those two words are very similar when the same question was posed to Jesus...the answer "I am"

While JRRT may not have employed allegory into his novels, he certainly did mirror our world, down to Middle Earth having it's own creator, Eru Iluvatar

Is Tom then, perhaps, the flesh and blood version of Eru on ME?
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Otaku-sempai » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:48 pm

Witchwench wrote:Is Tom then, perhaps, the flesh and blood version of Eru on ME?

I don't think so, though Tolkien deliberately left any explanation of Tom as a mystery. On the other hand: "Eldest, that’s what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

And then there are the words of Elrond: "But I had forgotten Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and hills long ago, and even then was older than the old. That was not then his name. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless. But many another name he has since been given by other folk: Forn by the Dwarves, Orald by Northern Men, and other names beside. He is a strange creature, but maybe I should have summoned him to our Council."

At the very least, Tom Bombadil might be one of the Ainur (Maiar?) or an elemental spirit that embodies Middle-earth itself. But probably not Eru Iluvatar physically incarnated; I would think that God would be more serious of mind, at least where the subject of the Ring was concerned. Nor do I think he would be bound to such a limited piece of land if he were Iluvatar.
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby RoseMorninStar » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:23 pm

There is a lot of discussion on the internet on this topic, probably because there is no definitive answer. To further complicate matters, in Chapter 5 of The Two Towers, Gandalf calls Treebeard "...the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth." and in The Return of the King, chapter 6, "Many Partings", Celeborn addresses Treebeard as "Eldest."

From Tolkien's letters:
"As a story, I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unexplained (especially if an explanation actually exists);

... And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."

(The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, p. 174)

Also, in another letter Tolkien states that LotR became a more serious story than he originally intended and so he had thought to take Tom out thinking he might seem silly, but he decided to leave him in because,
"The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless."

(The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, p. 178).

The 'renouncing of control/vow of poverty' certainly fits in with Tolkien's Christian upbringing.

I enjoy the section with Tom and Goldberry. It's a shame it was left out of the films.
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Witchwench » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:24 pm

Hi Otaku,
At the very least, Tom Bombadil might be one of the Ainur (Maiar?) or an elemental spirit that embodies Middle-earth itself.
I like this probably the most, ..the elemental spirit that embodies Middle earth...that to me makes much sense.

Rose thank you for kindly adding Tolkien's own words to this..an enigma is definitely describes Tom.

Now if one were to take the whole elemental Middle Earth spirit (which may not have been Tolkien's intention, now that I read his words) it doesn't become a conflict with Treebeard...as Treebeard may be the eldest and the oldest living thing..but if Tom is an elemental Middle Earth, he isn't really "living"...as in born/hatched/grew..so no conflict at all.

I have previously avoided Tom discussions because I always chalked Tom up as "just is"...but with this reading, I'm going much slower and looking at the nuances of the story.

Such as..I didn't catch this before, but Tom mentions to the Hobbits after the downs escape and at the edge of his woods: Rangers and the lost and wandering son's of kings. Later, we find out that Strider/Aragorn was in the vicinity looking for the hobbits at about the same time Tom was telling them about the Rangers. Well played JRRT..I like this enigma...I've always just ran through TB chapters after the first read..but now I'm enjoying him immensely
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby rwhen » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:53 am

First. As promised, I am here Witchie. (Witchy???) I guess it matters not. Most people can't even pronounce my name thinking I am named after a wren. *sigh* Anyway, I have out my large book that has all three books in one....paperback so it makes it easier for me to read rather than dragging out my ragged copies of the original three books. "In The House of Tom Bombadil" begins on page 120 for me. Question....will you wait for us to catch up? So we can get in the "Tolkien" mood so to speak? Or are you just going forward and we should all start at chapter 7? I can read fast...especially since I have read these books numerous times, but not in about a decade now. And like yourself, I am much older now...I hope to read them with a new eye and hopefully new insight.

Now....Really good observations Witchie, Rose and Otaku. I never thought of Tom and Goldberry as being equivalent to an Adam and Eve sort...or even as being of the Maiar. I guess I always just saw them as "living out of time" with the same time that everyone else was stepping to. Yet, Tom does seem to know everything that is going on in Middle Earth at the time of the "visit" from Frodo and the rest of the Hobbits.

To me they were more like unicorn, end of the rainbow, fairy sort of folk....something you can't see unless you know where to look (and he wants to be seen) and most don't know where to look. He does show a simplistic sort of silliness with his songs and his way of speaking to the group...most of the time, then he can also be dead serious. So I guess to me he has always been sort of an enigma. Someone that you really are never meant to understand or know. Yet, fascinating at the same time.

Thanks Rose for posting what the master wrote on the subject. At least that illuminates his thoughts on who and what Tom/Goldberry are.....still, I think there is room for our own thought processes to take hold and float us away to wherever we imagine with this couple.

Regardless, they have always felt warm, comfortable to me. Safe and glowing. Now I am no kiddo any longer....well past the age of adult for a Hobbit....so I am not taken to whim or fancy nor the unexplained easily.......yet again....checking out my sig photo, I just might be. This means I love fantasy and am easily able to immerse myself into the world without too much question.

So as I begin this journey with you all and again with the Master.....take me away Tolkien, I am ready.

Edited for stupidity!!!
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby RoseMorninStar » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:48 am

rwhen wrote:(...)I think there is room for our own thought processes to take hold and float us away to wherever we imagine with this couple.

I agree. I kinda like the idea of an elemental. And an enigma. Some things just can't be explained with our current knowledge.
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Witchwench » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:45 pm

rwhen I always thought your name was an original of Arwen...never thought of a bird, lol...I gotchya sis!

I will hang out and let everyone catch up!

We can, say, discuss the first three chapters (Long Expected Party through Three is Company)if that will work..since everyone is starting fresh!


I'll be honest..the first chapter of TFOTR always left me dry..I picked up the book several times back in the late 70's in an attempt to read..my friends insisting it was great..and struggled with the beginning. I do so enjoy the first chapter now, but initially that wasn't the case..,after Bilbo left, I then struggled to get on board with Frodo..I wanted Bilbo back..sigh..I'm just thankfully I plowed through..This time I'm slowing down and enjoying the scenery very much.

I am loving the homey and quaint story the Gaffer gives his audience at the Green Dragon, about Elves and Dragons and warning Bilbo not to get mixed up with them.

All in all, i'm slowing down and enjoying the journey , like I haven't since I first found out they were indeed marvelous.
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby rwhen » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:24 pm

Witchie...

Yahtzee!! When I first signed on I only could think of Arwen for a handle, but there were Arwen's coming out of the woodwork....so it occurred to me to just make it "look" like Arwen.....R + when.....but from that day it has been all messed up, even after I explain it. LOL....


SO....guess what? I read up to and through the Barrow Downs, the chaps are on their way to Bree....so we are very close.

I like the idea of taking three chapters at a time...easy bites, yet we can move it forward fairly fast.

Here is an observation that I never got before....there is TONS of foreshadowing in the first several chapters. Anyone else see that???
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The Expected Party!! is now on the road to Gondor to celebrate. Join us.

And getting into trouble with Rally The Eldar.

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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Witchwench » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:26 pm

rwhen I thought the exact same thing..I was thinking "wow" didn't notice that before.

Wonder why I missed those in repeated readings previously...then again, maybe I did notice them, but I have since forgotten over the years..

Oddly, while I enjoyed the movies for what they were...they became LOTR for me for several years..I had forgotten the beauty and pacing and slow unfolding of the story ..the beginning is a stark contrast ..unfolding slowly, not revealing the Nine in full terrifying power really until Weathertop...so these first few chapters are just so much more subtle...and I so enjoyed them rendezvousing at Crickhollow
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby rwhen » Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:55 pm

Witchie....I spent three hours on a post over in the Pony on The Expected Party thread and now have to get ready for work tonight. So I am off the next two days and will make the comments I have to offer on the first three chapters then. Promise. :D
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I will always treasure and remember your appreciation. Thank you. -2007 WCA's
Overwhelmed by your support and appreciation. Thank you. - 2008 WCA's

The Expected Party!! is now on the road to Gondor to celebrate. Join us.

And getting into trouble with Rally The Eldar.

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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Thor 'n' Oakenshield » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:23 am

Hmm, I might have to join in on this reading group. I've read the books quite recently, but I wouldn't mind picking them up again. Those first few chapters are truly wonderful.
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby rwhen » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:44 am

Thor'n, please oh' please do. We are only on the first three chapters....and the pace is going to be easy enough. I also hope that Rose and Okatu will return to offer their well reasoned insight. And more will join in as well. :D

Okay as I promised....

Chapter one - The Long Expected Party. (and I ripped this off for my RP)
Did you ever notice how much Hobbits....for all they are so very polite and gentle and courteous are whiny little arses? Bible is too young looking, nothing good will come of it, he is too rich, he doesn't mix much, he is doing his buying out of the area.....and the party is all for his "joke" but all of the Hobbits stand to gain from it with presents and food and drink and fireworks....geesh. I should think I would be excited to know that old Bilbo was celebrating his birthday with a big bash again. Grubby little blighters. :P

I kinda like the idea of giving gifts on your own birthday. Certainly most of us don't celebrate in such a huge way as Bilbo does...but getting little trinkets or gifts throughout the year is a cool idea...or am I a grubby little blighter?

I think one of my favorite parts of chapter one is always the fireworks. I always had them in my mind as totally spectacular, but the movies really cemented that too. Yes, I know we are talking only books...but that actually agreed with the books. Gandalf totally outdid himself on this particular celebration. Imagine a dragon that looked so real that it terrified you and you fell face down on the ground as it flew over. I would love to see something like that in real life.

Now to how much the ring has come to take old Bilbo. It is rather sad really and we see why Gollum was so obsessed with the ring (but more on that later). In my mind Bilbo is a kind old fellow, generous and slow to anger. Then when he tries to leave the ring....it gets pretty ugly. But it also shows the strength of Bilbo, that he showed in The Hobbit, to finally be able to let it go and what a relief it was. Also can you imagine how lonely Frodo must have felt after Bilbo's departure? Sad really. And then Otho telling him he should have gone too, he was a Took and didn't belong there. :cry:

Chapter 2 - A Shadow of the Past.
I often wondered why Frodo kept giving Bilbo's birthday party long after he left? He could have just had his own, being that his birthday was the same day. Also that the mention that the whole of the Shire was becoming wary and suspicious of odd or different things. The conversation that Sam has with his Gaffer about Ents and dwarves and the Elves sailing into the West....he knew quite a lot for a land that most people didn't even know about.

Then Gandalf finally returns. He comments that Frodo still looks the same even though many years have passed. He didn't use the ring....could it be that just being in the presence of the ring will cause the lack of aging????

I don't have much to offer that would expand on what most of us already know....Gandalf relates all he knows about the One Ring to Frodo and how dangerous it really is and how Gollum in his folly gave the name of Baggins and Shire to the Dark Lord in Mordor. Frodo is taken aback to learn that Gollum is of Hobbit Folk...but Gandalf doesn't really say that...he says "I GUESS....they were of Hobbit-kind....." Now I reckon that Gandalf's guesses are a good as most folks facts. But still...was he or was he not of the Hobbits???

(as a side note here....Gandalf goes on to tell the tale of Elendil and Isildur.....the first time I heard Isildur's name in the movie....I shivered, it was so exciting, am I alone there???)

Here is where I see the fore shadowing.....Gandalf is already telling Frodo about the Cracks of Doom and how the ring must be destroyed and Frodo must do it. Frodo had only thought to go traveling to protect the Shire...nothing like this ever occurred to him. I "think" he dreamed often of doing something like Bible did on his great adventure, but I doubt he really felt that something like that would fall to him. And Certainly THIS adventure is no real adventure at all.

Also...this is where we see that Sam was really spying on Frodo and Gandalf the whole time...and reporting everything back to Merry and Pippin, even though Gandalf threatened him. Hobbits can be very brave, ya gotta give them that.

Chapter 3 - Three is Company
I just hate that Lobelia bought Bag End, don't you?. :( This chapter is where we see the Black Riders show up and looking for Baggins. How terrifying that must have been, he couldn't even start his journey in peace....but he does start off and in the footsteps of Bilbo, though he didn't know it.

Now in this chapter something happens that shows that animals and more are sentient in the world of Tolkien. I have taken some heat for this introducing characters that are sentient in RP. Some purists do not believe that Tolkien meant it to mean how I see it. But in this chapter we get the fox that observes Pippin, Sam and Frodo sleeping and thinks "Hobbits, well what's next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of Hobbits sleeping out of doors under a tree. Three of them! There's something mighty queer about this." Two thoughts here....first have you ever known of an animal, like a fox to have "thoughts" like this? And second, the fox has "heard" of strange doings in this land.....from whom? Other animals perhaps??? Travelers???? Does the fox understand the language of the folk? I would be interested in reading your thoughts here. (certainly we know the Ents were sentient...and some birds as well...)

The Black Riders get close two times in this chapter...making Frodo tempted to use the ring. Why? What about the Black Riders tempted him? Thoughts? Then they have the great fortune to run into the elves and Gildor. *sigh* I have a soft spot for the elves and my character most identifies with the elves. We don't really learn much from this meeting...but it is clear that Gildor and the elves know of Frodo's being about and traveling and why. I love the saying "Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes". I think we find with Elrond later that this saying isn't really true...but I love it just the same.


Okay....those are my thoughts.
Question....Witchie...is that more or less what you had in mind? I can be wordy, so apologies for that ahead of time. Also I think I am more simplistic in my thinking, very linear until further discussion comes up and I have to use the old noodle to dig a bit deeper. Please let me know if this is how you were thinking....I promise my feelings won't be hurt. I do hope that folks like Rose will show up and let us know what the Professor thought on certain subjects...that is always good to know.

NOW....I am laying my lazy buns down on the couch. :hug:
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The Expected Party!! is now on the road to Gondor to celebrate. Join us.

And getting into trouble with Rally The Eldar.

Yes Ayslhyn, I do still remember.

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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Witchwench » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:15 pm

Thor..yes..please do join us :)

I too thought the movie depiction of the fireworks was well done

I was thinking about the ring and it's ability to preserve the bearer..but I don't think it necessarily has be be used or even worn, I think it's a transfer of ownership that takes place, magically.
I mean, if it was just in the vicinity, then everyone in the house or around it would be affected, but it only seems to affect the "owner"..whether is is used, worn or put away. However, it's pretty obvious by it's affect on Gollum, that the more it is used, the more it's insidious nature works on the user/owner..rotting away, faster than if one didn't use it at all..and I think, to some extent even wearing it, like on a chain, increases the evil power, but perhaps not to the extent actually using, but more than having stuffed in an envelope and locked in a trunk.

Which dovetails into the Nine tempting Frodo to use the ring..I think they are playing on that evil magic that is and has been at work on Frodo ever since he became the ring's new owner. Much like a magnet draws metal, the Nine draw and are drawn to the One Ring..they pull it towards them so to speak.

Now the fox with it's inner dialogue has always just cracked me up...like one of CS Lewis's characters from Narnia defected over to Middle Earth, lol.

**what do y'all think..three days for three chapters, tomorrow we move on to the next three?
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby rwhen » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:35 am

I think you are right on it is who owns the ring that the ring controls.....that would explain it.

The relationship between Lewis and Tolkien..."Inklings" was well known...so it is not out of the realm of possibility that the animals talking was a shared thing. I just wonder why purists are so against it when Tolkien had it right in the books. *shrugs*

I will drop a line to Rose and Tooks...see if they want to join on in. :D And I just did....on Facebook. I left them both private messages. I don't know if Thor'n is on Facebook or not. But a bit of recruiting can't hurt, right? :D

I am willing to move forward...maybe tomorrow or the next day???? Just to give one more chance for others to post? Howzat??
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vison! Alex!Rowanberry!oldtoby!Cock Robin(CR)!Prim!Calma! I will never ever forget you.

I will always treasure and remember your appreciation. Thank you. -2007 WCA's
Overwhelmed by your support and appreciation. Thank you. - 2008 WCA's

The Expected Party!! is now on the road to Gondor to celebrate. Join us.

And getting into trouble with Rally The Eldar.

Yes Ayslhyn, I do still remember.

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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Thor 'n' Oakenshield » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:06 am

Hi! I'm not on Facebook, actually, and I'm sorry I didn't drop by a little sooner: I was planning on doing some reading today.
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby rwhen » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:41 am

looking forward to your comments on chapters one through three....


I am set for the next ones....four five and six. :D
Love is as big or as little as a hug!!

vison! Alex!Rowanberry!oldtoby!Cock Robin(CR)!Prim!Calma! I will never ever forget you.

I will always treasure and remember your appreciation. Thank you. -2007 WCA's
Overwhelmed by your support and appreciation. Thank you. - 2008 WCA's

The Expected Party!! is now on the road to Gondor to celebrate. Join us.

And getting into trouble with Rally The Eldar.

Yes Ayslhyn, I do still remember.

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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Vanaladiel » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:49 pm

I have not read through all your observations thus far on the first three chapters but I will.

As of now may I join this group as well?

I have been reading these books for many years. I started reading them in the 7th grade in 1968 my English teacher read the Hobbit to us.. Then in high school I bought the Lord of the Rings. The Sil when it came out and the Children of Hurin when it came out (though I have not read it yet). I used to read them every year but have not in the last few so it is time for me to once more enter Middle Earth and enjoy the adventure again!!
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Tookish_Traveler » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:52 pm

I need to catch up!!! Carry on and I'll read along. Vana, I think you'll be most welcome to join n. :D
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The Boyz are back in town.

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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Witchwench » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:39 pm

Come one, come all..!!! That's what I say, the more the merrier...we'll stay on these first three chapters through tomorrow and start the next three on Sunday..does that sound good>?
Looking forward to some lively discussion and some insights I haven't thought of before.


Ahhh only a true geek would consider a book discussion as lively ...I proudly fly that freak flag :D :D

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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby rwhen » Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:18 am

WHHHHEEEEEEEE Vanadarlin' and Tooksies!!!

Okay Witchie....Sunday sounds good for 4-6...I work a closing shift that day, so I will have time....for a shorter post I hope. ;)

Oh and you gots a freaque flag???? ;)
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Witchwench » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:31 am

Sunday 9/22 thru Tuesday 9/24 midnight...for the next three days let us discuss ...Everyone welcome to join in at any time


Chapters 4. Shortcut to Mushrooms, 5. A Conspiracy Unmasked and 6. Old Forest



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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Thor 'n' Oakenshield » Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:07 am

I'm moving slowly, but I got through the first chapter and I'm halfway through The Shadow Of The Past. Great stuff - one thing I noticed especially is how mysterious Frodo's origins are. We never find out what happened to poor Drogo and Primula Baggins; whether they did in fact drown accidentally, or whether one was pushed, etc. Tolkien keeps us in the dark. It immediately adds an impenetrable layer of mystery around Frodo's whole character. In Tolkien's early drafts of the novel, he mentioned that the Ring might have had something to do with their death - which I've always found very intriguing. But, of course, in typical Tolkien fashion, he never elaborated on what that statement meant. But you have to wonder what he himself actually thought happened. If the Ring was somehow involved with their deaths, might that have been the reason Bilbo felt compelled to adopt Frodo? Does that plot point have its roots in that idea? It's something that's always fascinated me.

I'll try to read a little bit faster: today is Hobbit Day, so there's no better way to spend the day than by reading. I can probably get all the way to Conspiracy Unmasked at the very least. :)
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Witchwench » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:24 am

Thor, good observations..

Was the will of the ring..to get back to Sauron, working it's evil in a wider picture...not just on Bilbo, but actively manipulating circumstances to bring about it's own return to it's master?

Hmmmmmm..we can go back all the way to Isildur with that question when the Ring "betrayed" him...which seems to indicate it knows when an opportunity is at hand that will help it get back to it's maker..however, in that case, while it ultimately got picked up again, it was a very very long time before it occured..if it was sentient form of magic, it would certainly have picked slipping off the finger in a place where an Orc or goblin would have picked it up..instead it vanished from pretty much all knowledge.

that doesn't mean, it doesn't manipulate a change of hands when it doesn't feel it's getting what it needs (back to Sauron)..but that it does so automatically and without thought or meditation..like a homing beacon...or as stated above like metal trying to get back to a pulling magnet..interesting Thor.



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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby rwhen » Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:23 pm

Thor'n very interesting to think of the "ring" that way. I guess sort of like Winchie it occurred to me....the ring was hidden for so long after Isuldur "dropped it" in the river. Then was also a very very long time with Smeagol. He got the ring in 2463 and lost it to Bilbo in 2941, that is like almost 500 years....it doesn't appear from what I have read that the ring had any far reaching influence during that time...except to keep it secret until Bilbo....to show up where he did and when he did and Smeagol conveniently losing the ring at that time.....then Bilbo has it for a very long time as well....I am trying to address the deaths of Frodo's parents which cause him to be taken in by Bilbo and did the ring have anything to do with that and the mystery that the Professor builds around their death. I guess to me I am wondering how Bilbo thought to take on Frodo after the death of his parents unless maybe the ring...."nudged" him in that direction. That would make more sense to me. But very interesting to think about.

Okay....I took a shower and ate some cinnamon toast...and feel a bit more alive. I want to address "A Short Cut To Mushrooms" first. I remember when I first read LOTR's, Farmer Maggot was one of my favorite characters....he had mushrooms. LOL Very superficial, but I LOVE mushrooms and I can feel and taste mushrooms cooked with bacon. Right? But before then, they have just left the elves and it is awesome how affected Sam is....it appears that before leaving on the journey, he just really wants to meet elves...after he meets them...he now understands that his life has a much deeper meaning than just the meeting of elves. It is profound and thinking ahead, it certainly shows in all the rest of LOTR's and Sam's choices.

It is also really glaring how young Pippin is. When Frodo says he wants to eat and think....he makes a crack about thinking and eating at the same time and then goes off running and singing through the fields. Also he quips about shortcuts making long delays but wants to stop for ale at a pub he knows of. He seems to have a healthy fear of the journey they are on, but at the same time....he doesn't.....and while Frodo is deathly afraid of Farmer Maggot....Pippin is not at all. We see this age thing all through the books.

Lastly....in original writings of LOTR's...Tolkien had Bingo (the original name of the character of Frodo) stealing mushrooms a lot from the Farmer and when the dogs chased him, he threw a rock and killed one of Maggot's dogs which is why he beats Bingo/Frodo and threatens him about ever coming back again. Though Tolkien changed all that around in the final version....obviously the fear of Farmer Maggot...who in the end doesn't seem to recall Frodo in a bad way...was for a very good reason. I love that Maggot is smart...and pretty fearless by comparison to other Hobbits....he ran off the Black Rider and said he would do it again and then drove them to the Ferry. I will always count Farmer Maggot as a good ol' bean in my head.

Okay...that is all for today. I have things to do before getting ready for work tonight. I hope when I return tomorrow that more of you will have left your own thoughts on what you got out of reading these chapters. :)
Love is as big or as little as a hug!!

vison! Alex!Rowanberry!oldtoby!Cock Robin(CR)!Prim!Calma! I will never ever forget you.

I will always treasure and remember your appreciation. Thank you. -2007 WCA's
Overwhelmed by your support and appreciation. Thank you. - 2008 WCA's

The Expected Party!! is now on the road to Gondor to celebrate. Join us.

And getting into trouble with Rally The Eldar.

Yes Ayslhyn, I do still remember.

Vanadarlin', my SSOTH - 143 forever
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Witchwench » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:16 pm

On A Shortcut to Mushrooms

rwhen, it is interesting that you mention Sam and him having a deeper way of thinking. I thought the same thing, he also appears to have a deeper understanding of his role and "going into darkness" than even Frodo has at this point, as well as a firm commitment to seeing it through. " I must see it through, sir, if you understand me"..to which Frodo replies "I don't altogether". I never really caught that before, that Sam, in his way, understood the peril they were heading towards even more than the Ringbearer at this point in the books.

Farmer Maggot is a brave, fierce hobbit and I just love how he recalls his conversation with the Black Rider...telling the rider to go back where he came from and then threatens to sick his dogs on him..Maggot is a badass, lol. I couldn't help but feel a little nostalgic, knowing these small islands of safety and comfort would soon become few and far between.

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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Vanaladiel » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:01 pm

I have read up through chapter 6 already and will probably quickly move on.

I love all your observations but as I get into the book I just keep reading. I have found it interesting to see the small details that pop out in each chapter that I might not have noticed before.

How Bilbo planned his departure but the only one who knew for sure was Gandalf, though Frodo was not totally clueless to things going on. The black riders almost catching them so many times along their adventure out of the shire.

When Frodo finally decides to go that he believes that he can do it alone and still plans on leaving Sam later and going it all alone. But is fooled when Sam being a lead conspirator, gets the others involved and helps plot out what the rest of them will do.

How convenient it was for the elves to be going their direction and allow them to travel with them to help cover their tracks and give them some comfort along the road.

How Farmer Maggot and his wife provide a safe travel towards the bridge and even send more food along.

I love how the old forest quickly blocks their way in the direction they wish to go and aim them for the Withywindle. That Tom Bombadil came along at the right time to save them when it was his last trip for the winter to go that way. So many things laying out to help them when the dark world is trying to trip them up.

Tonight I will be going through chapter 7 and 8 probably. Sorry I find it hard to go slow and only read a little when I get into the story and start the trip with them.
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Witchwench » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:39 pm

Van, no worries..I'm the same way, I'm through the White Counsel and moving onward..but I coming back and discussing these chapters at a slower pace have actually caused me to skim over, or double the read so to speak..which is quite fun..I am also reading Tolkien's Letters in conjunction with all of this..what fascinating insight.
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Re: Lord of The Rings..a reading group

Postby Witchwench » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:14 am

On a Conspiracy Unmasked and Old Forest

Now I think these chapters and the following, with the wanderings and such, lose a lot of movie fans that attempt the books...they find a lot of wandering, a lot of chatting and not a whole heck of a lot going on. We who love and cherish Tolkien understand that the wandering and talking begin to build these characters even more, as well as build the world of Middle Earth around them.

The Hobbiton isn't the only place in the Shire, the road to Crickhollow builds a sense of space and distance between the neighboring towns. It also builds a sense of community, where we learn that while Frodo was an oddity in Hobbiton, he would be welcomed back with open arms by the Brandybucks and Tooks, according to Farmer Maggot. So in these chapters, without coming right out and telling the reader, Tolkien has given us a true sense of time and place in their world..now as we enter the old forest, we get a sense of something even older and larger, with more history.

The menace that is in the forest, what is that? It's been many many years since I read the Sil..what is at work there? Did Sauron/Necromancer reside for a time there during earlier battles? Was the spirit of the trees warped and twisted by his evil during that time? It had a menacing vibe, luring the hobbits deeper and deeper into it's maze. Then ultimately tries to crush and drown them..until Tommy B shows up. Then the fact that it is very close to the Barrow Downs.


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