Top 10 most powerful villains in Tolkien

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Postby Armenelos » Sun Feb 10, 2002 12:59 pm

i guess so. i just think it was nasty of her to kill the trees.
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Postby Tavish13 » Sun Feb 10, 2002 1:56 pm

In terms of 'individual power' I would say:<BR><BR><BR>1. Morgoth - no doubt. Originally he would have been second only to Eru.<BR><BR>2. Ungoliant - Morgoth 'lent' her his power. She wouldn't have stood a chance against him originally.<BR><BR>3. Sauron<BR><BR>4. Ancalagon<BR><BR>5. Glaurung<BR><BR>6. Smaug<BR><BR>7. Saruman<BR><BR>8. Gothmog<BR><BR>9. Balrog of Moria<BR><BR>10. Witch King - could possibly be higher than Balrogs, but the only 'one on one' that we really know about is that with Eowyn/Merry, and personally I think those two would have got wasted by a Balrog.<BR><BR><BR>Other dragons (eg. Scatha) could be in this list but I don't really know enough about them to include).
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Postby ngaur » Mon Feb 11, 2002 9:09 am

If you talk about power as in terms of greatness in the thought of illuvatar:<BR><BR>1. Morgoth Bauglir. The black enemy of the world. Melkor was greatest of all the ainur, and the originator of the disharmony in the music of the ainur. <BR><BR>2. Sauron. Also called Gorthaur the cruel. A Wizard of dreadful power, a master of shapes. His influence in the east and south was beyond measure and it took two long ages to defeat him.<BR><BR>3. Ungoliante. Darkness incarnate, her size and strenght enormously magnified by Morgoth and by devouring the two trees. Very nearly devoured Morgoth as well.<BR><BR>4. Glaurung. Father of dragons. An evil spirit of great malice and cunning. Wielded hypnotic powers and could breathe fire. Sacked Nargothrond.<BR><BR>5. Gothmog. Lord of the balrogs, high captain of Angband. Spirit of fire and shadow. Slayer of Feanor, Fingon and Echtelion. Captor of Hurin Thalion<BR><BR>6. Carcharoth. The red maw, greatest wolf that ever lived, bred by Morgoth personally. Slayer of Huan the hound of Valinor. Swallowed a silmaril.<BR><BR>7. Ancalagon the black. greatest of dragons, and chief of the uruloki. His fall caused mountains to crumble and the towers of Thangorodrim to fall. Surprisingly easily defated by Earendil.<BR><BR>8. Saruman the white. Later of many colours, Real name Curunir. Greatest of the istari. Leader of white counsil, devised Saurons defeat in Dol Guldur. Great enchanter with a voice of power.<BR><BR>9. Witch king of Angmar. Sorcerer and chief of the nazgul. Razed Cardolan and Arthedian. Summoned the barrow whights. Spreader of decay in Imlad Morgul. Could not be defeated by man.<BR><BR>10. Smaug the golden, third dragon in this list. one of the flying uruloki. Drove out the dwarves of the lonely mountains, ravaged Dale and burned Lake Town. Augmented his scales with a coat of gems.<BR><BR>Wannabees:<BR><BR>1. Balrog of Moria. Durins bane, drove dwarves from Moria. Defated by Gandalf.<BR>2. Draugluin. Sire of the werewolves. A dread beast, old in evil. Defeated by Huan<BR>3. Scatha the worm. Great cold drake. drove dwarves from Grey mountains. Killed by ?<BR>4. Shelob. Giant spider. Last child of Ungoliante. Defeated by Sam Gamgee.<BR>5. Mouth of Sauron. Black numenorean. Black magician, knew much of the arts of Sauron. Fate unknown.<BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>And a second list in which I rate them according to their evil deeds.<BR><BR>1. Morgoth Bauglir. Originator of Arda Marred.<BR>2. Ungoliante. Destroyed the two trees, ended the bliss of Valinor.<BR>3. Sauron. Caused the fall of Numenor and the change of the world.<BR>4. Glaurung. Sacked Nargothrond, and helped fulfil the curse of Turin.<BR>5. Carcharoth. Killed Huan, killed Beren, causing death of Luthien.<BR>6. Sons of Feanor. Kinslayers and killers of Dior, Elured and Elu???<BR>7. Gothmog. Killed Feanor, killed Fingon, killed Echtelion.<BR>8. Balrog of Moria. Durins Bane. Destroyed Moria, killed Gandalf.<BR>9. Witch-King. Destroyed Arnor, Fouled up Minas Ithil and killed Earnur.<BR>10. Saruman. Fouled up Isengard, created half-orks and scoured the Shire.<BR><BR>Wannabees:<BR><BR>1. Smaug. Destroyed Erebor, Dale and Esgaroth.<BR>2. Scatha. Drove dwarves from grey mountains.<BR>3. Azog. Ork chieftain of the North. Killed Thror and caused ork-dwarf war.<BR><BR><BR>
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Postby northpolarbeorn » Mon Feb 11, 2002 5:06 pm

>>5. Carcharoth. Killed Huan, killed Beren, causing death of Luthien<<.<BR><BR>Hang on! Your rating them according to the Evilness of their deeds?<BR>Carcharoth was bred and enslaved to be a killer. And he was driven insane by the Silmaril. And Huan was hardly defenseless, so it was a pretty fair fight. All in all, a good lawyer could put up a compelling case against accusations of "evil" against the poor wolf.<BR><BR>Too many of these lists ignore the issue of free will. The Witch King might have been a badass when alive, but in spite of all his power he's just a mindless slave at the time of LOTR. (A mindless slave who's afraid of water, fire and certain dirty words).<BR><BR>Who is more evil? Sauron, Smaug, or Shelob? Sauron may want to enslave all of middle-earth, but at least he has some reason, some creative purpose; to remake the land into a smooth running machine.(Sauron's objectives are mentioned in one of the HOME books, I think its a remnant of his creative impulses as a maia of Aule)<BR>Smaug is pure greed and selfishness. He can be cruelly and casually destructive, but generally keeps to himself.<BR>Shelob seems to be absolute, unmotivated evil. She has no master, answers to no-one, yet destroys for the sheer sake of destruction. I wonder if Eru did not create Ungoliant and her kin to be some pure force of nature on M-E.<BR><BR>Finally, I have to agree with those who put Ar Pharazon near the top; I mean, just for the sheer balls. He built the greatest army/navy on earth, intimidated Sauron, terrified his forces, invaded AMAN!, declared war on the gods, changed the face of the world, destroying Numenor, and he was just a mortal man.<BR><BR>Yeah, yeah ...I know it was Eru who changed the world, but would that mean that Eru is the greatest villain? Loaded philosophical question there.
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Postby Denethor » Mon Feb 11, 2002 5:23 pm

Armenelos: I think you might want to rethink your list. At the moment you are rating the Sackville-Bagginses as more powerful than Morgoth or Sauron (Morgoth and Sauron don't even make your top 10). And Denethor is not a villian!
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Postby neithan_the_wronged » Mon Feb 11, 2002 7:40 pm

Here's my list:<BR><BR>1. Morgoth<BR>2. Ungoliant<BR>3. Sauron<BR>4. Anglachlin<BR>5. Gothmog<BR>6. Glaramung<BR>7. Smaug<BR>8. Saruman<BR>9. Henry the Balrog of Moria<BR>10. Witch-King
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Postby Bilbo25 » Mon Feb 11, 2002 7:58 pm

Morgoth<BR>Ungoliant<BR>Gothmog<BR>Henry the Balrog<BR>Sauron<BR>Ancalagon<BR>Glarung<BR>Smaug<BR>Shelob<BR>Witch King<BR>Sauruman<BR>
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Postby mikechim » Thu Feb 14, 2002 10:06 pm

Morgoth <BR>Sauron <BR>The Ring * ehh , not sure if it works but hey (see below)<BR>Ungoliant <BR>Sauraman (petty yes but still powerful)<BR>The witchking<BR>Angalocon<BR>Glaruang (sp)<BR>Gothmog<BR>Other Nazgul<BR><BR><BR>I'm looking at it not from just raw power as far as being able to kick some arse but also the abililty to spawn evil , bring people to your cause , "damn people" if you will. Hitler was probably one of he most "powerful villians" of our time, yet I'm sure I could probably smack the heck out of him. It wasn't his physical power but the power he wielded over others. Taint people may be a better word , I'm extremely tired , worked 11 hrs and only got like 3 hours of sleep before that but hopefully you get the idea. Also kind iffy towards the end of the list, haven't read the siml in awhile.
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Postby Buckterium » Fri Feb 15, 2002 12:55 am

I would think the Ring would be part of Sauron's power....
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Postby mikechim » Sun Feb 17, 2002 2:08 pm

Hmmm, yes and no. I guess it depends on how you look at it, true the ring was created by Sauron and his power was in it. But Shelob was created by (her descendent) ugoliant and Morgoth created or twisted many evils himself. Also the ring is not controlled by Sauron and seems to have a "mind or will" of its own. If it was controlled by sauron, it would be all over.<BR>Instead many times it is referred to has having a will of its own, or trying to get back to it's master. And Sauron is trying to find it, searching for it, if it was truly a part of him that he controlled he'd know where it was, kind of like knowing where you hand is. <BR><BR>Semi Fuzzy logic I realize but hey, it is a different way of looking at it.
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Postby Armenelos » Sun Feb 17, 2002 2:16 pm

i still the ring should be able to count regardless.
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Postby Daniel_Baggins » Sun Feb 17, 2002 6:35 pm

Henry? <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby hamlet » Sun Apr 14, 2002 2:11 pm

Bumping an older thread and asking a quick, stupid question. When I read the Silmarilion, I remember something saying to the effect that Sauron would have been more powerful than Morgoth if he had not been continualy serving the dark Vala. I don't have the book with me and couldn't possibly tell you where it is, but maybe somebody remembers this? In terms of deeds and sheer prolonged havok and dismay, Sauron is a straight contender for the top spot.
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Postby Steerpike » Sun Apr 14, 2002 2:45 pm

It doesn't say he would have been more powerful, it says he was less evil only "in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void."<BR><BR>Also Sauron had his band of gold, but Tolkien is quoted as saying that Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring.<BR>
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Postby hamlet » Sun Apr 14, 2002 2:56 pm

Yes, I remember it now. Thank you for posting it, Steerpike. Even now as I read it, it reafirms my idea that, perhaps, Sauron was more dangerous, destructive, etc. Or at least equal to Morgoth in evilness. If Sauron was less evil only because he so long served Morgoth, imagine how evil and powerful he would have been had he served only himself.<BR><BR>This is only my opinion.
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Postby ElfChick » Sun Apr 14, 2002 4:37 pm

1.orcs<BR>2.another orc<BR>3.the big spiders from mirkwood<BR>4.shelob<BR>5.samog<BR>6.balrog<BR>7.lertz<BR>8.nazguls<BR>9.witch king<BR><BR><b>And the top villin in LOTR is.... </b><BR>*drum roll please*<BR>10.saron! <BR>well <i>DUH!</i>
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Postby *E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R* » Mon Apr 15, 2002 5:05 pm

I'd like to quickly point out that in the very first post, they say that it was frodo who killed shelob - very wrong, but I shall say no more... it was probably just a misprint <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR>Anyway, I really can't argue with these numerous posts about who's more evil or powerful, and I don't want my list to look like everyone else's. Since I am new to Tolkien, these are the villians (yes, just villians. I don't feel like ranking by power) that stood out in my mind: (no real order)<BR><BR>ORCS - because of their massive numbers, they were able to kill some very "important" characters, such as Boromir, Balin, and Isildur. They also attacked Elrond's wife.<BR><BR>GRIMA WORMTONGUE - hate it when a baddie is working for the good guys. If it weren't for Gandalf, Eomer and Theoden wouldn't have had much of a chance.<BR><BR>THE NAZGUL - okay, these guys really scare me. they are equiped with morgul blades, are backed by Sauron, and they got those winged beasts.<BR><BR>SACKVILLE BAGGINS' (Lobelia was one of 'em, right?) - lousy neighbors suck. Lousy relatives suck. They suck.<BR><BR>DENETHOR - I just think he posed a few too many problems. Treated Faramir like crap, went nuts and killed himself, almost killed Faramir, used the Palantir (like that was a good idea), and was snotty to Gandalf and Pippin when they first meet. He doesn't strike me as a wonderful guy, that's all.<BR><BR>SARUMAN - the lies he fed Gandalf at Orthanc almost had ME convinced he was sincere. I don't like anyone who blames stuff on their right-hand man (like Grima at the end).<BR><BR>BARROW-WIGHTS - they suck people into the ground and then re-animated corpses kill them... scary.<BR><BR>SHELOB - a bubbling, massive spider that drips venom from it's fangs and makes sure it's victims are alive when she eats them... I hate her.<BR><BR>SAURON - I guess he's caused a problem or two in Middle-earth <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><BR><BR>SMAUG - a lazy-arse dragon that destroyed many towns and killed many people just so that he could sit on a bed of gold and jewels. Whether or not he was saving up to buy a real bed, I do not know <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>*I'm aware that this list is missing some very important baddies such as Morgoth, Ungoliant, etc., but other people have already mentioned these characters and as I have not yet read any further than LOTR and a bit of The Hobbit, I don't want to hop on the bandwagon <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Re: Top 10 most powerful villains in Tolkien

Postby Billobob » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:45 am

Melkor,Sauron, Gothmog, Durin's bane, Saruman, the witch king, then the rest of the ring wraiths.
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Re: Top 10 most powerful villains in Tolkien

Postby Chariot Rider » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:39 pm

Though I do not fell he deserves to be in the top 10 he does get an honorable mention. I feel one of the most interesting villains of middle earth is denathor. Though he isn't a dragon or a dark lord he is pretty cool. He is an insane steward. Not to flashy. I find him interesting because of his view of the war. He essentially just gives up on the free world so he just doesn't fight it. He has great power but he fails his kingdom and ultimately the world. Also I just want to throw in bill ferney because how can you forget bill. Anyone who is defeated by an apple to the face is worthy of mention.
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Re: Top 10 most powerful villains in Tolkien

Postby Morwenna » Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:17 pm

*chuckle* That's what makes it all interesting; there are different types of villains, different levels of villainy. Bill Ferny is a petty person who looks to his own advantage; one might think he had no power for real evil, but a furtive word to the right (or wrong) person could cause great havoc. Denethor does what he does for what he thinks are the right reasons, but mixed in is his own pettiness (his refusal to serve under a rightful king, and his hubris in attempting to use the palantir), so is he really any better than Ferny? But he is the ruler of a country, so his actions impact many people.

Anyone who thinks Tolkien writes black & white characters needs to really read these books, not go by hearsay or supposition.
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Re: Top 10 most powerful villains in Tolkien

Postby Billobob » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:38 pm

Yeah, the morals of Tolkien may be black And white but not his characters.
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