Will LOTR become less popular over time?

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Postby Myrdock » Tue Jul 11, 2000 2:37 pm

Without new and fresh ideas will the world of Middle Earth become less and less popular? But on the other hand, can anyone compare with original Tolkien work? Look at the Star Wars series. There are a ton of "official" books, but a lot of them are...well, pretty bad.<BR><BR> Just thought it'd be interesting to hear what people thought. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR> (D'oh! There's a post in Movies that deals with this issue. Sorry...again!)
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Postby Elmtree » Tue Jul 11, 2000 3:36 pm

LOTR is a classic, and I seriously doubt it will become "less and less popular" because it does not have "fresh new ideas"<BR><BR>It may become less and less popular because less and less people can read, or even think. But when folks discover again how to read and think, LOTR will be there, waiting.<BR><BR>As far as "should folks be able to publish" stories based on ME, I think it would be great if "non canon" stories could be put out-- sort of "legal" fan fiction.<BR><BR>I mentioned this on the old boards: Pocket Books puts out a collection of professional quality Star Trek fan fiction each year. The stories are top notch, and they take place in the established Star Trek world. However, they are not "canon"-- they are fan fiction (good fan fiction). I'd love to see something similar with Middle Earth-- an anthology of high quality LOTR fanfic.
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Postby Slaine » Tue Jul 11, 2000 4:21 pm

Longroot, I agree mostly, but I think if I was to write, I would like the credibility of my own imagination<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>.
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Postby Iarwain » Tue Jul 11, 2000 4:39 pm

Its not so much that I would be afraid that others could match Tolkiens literary prowress, I know that probably wouldnt happen, but it's the fact that too many inconsistancies in the story could arise. With so many different people writing so many different stories in such a HUGE world I would be afraid that things could get all tangled up.
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Postby Edrilan » Tue Jul 11, 2000 7:17 pm

Myrdock, I think I can best contribute here by addressing the lack of quality in Star Wars novels. You see, most Star Wars novels you find on the shelves were written and printed with the consent of George Lucas, but that does not, nor will it ever, make these books what we call "canon." For those who do not know, I am not refering to what pirates fired from their ships! Canon means that the book or movie can be used is the most true source for imformation on the topic. For example: The original Star Wars trilogy movies are canon, but the books are NOT. In the book Star Wars: A New Hope (Episode IV) Han Solo, after killing Greedo, says "sorry about the mess, I always was a rotten host." In the movie A New Hope Han only says "sorry about the mess." So which line really happened in the Star Wars universe? The line from the movie did, becuase the movies are the canon source.<BR><BR>Now if you made it through all of that jabber and crap then I'll get to my point! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> If another author were allowed by the Tolkien estate to write about M-E then the book(s) would be "authorized" but NOT "canon" as the Tolkien estate would most likely want only what JRR wrote himself to be "canon." I hope I have made some sort of sense as I know I confused myself a tad!
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Postby Nahar » Tue Jul 11, 2000 8:04 pm

I don't think that someone should or could. First, in reference to Star Wars and Star Trek. I have enjoyed reading the Star Wars book as a continuation of the Star Wars universe, but as Y'dal said, "How could anyone possibly write about a world that exists only in the imagination of another and expect it to even compare?" The Star Wars and Star Trek movies and seriers were both set on television, with a visual reference created by the writers. The world of Tolkien is only in books. While they are much more detailed, the visual is created in the mind of each reader, so it is individual, and what each person pulls out of it is individual, while a movie more often leads people to think the same things. Thus, no one could conceivably write something that even compares in the lightest shadow to Tolkien's work, so it should not be tried.<BR>
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Postby Myrdock » Tue Jul 11, 2000 8:17 pm

I too enjoyed reading some of the Star Wars books...I hope Han and Leia really do get married!
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Postby Iarwain » Tue Jul 11, 2000 8:21 pm

Lol, Your a little late for that. Ask Jacen and Jayna(sp?) about their parents wedding.
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Postby Nahar » Tue Jul 11, 2000 8:29 pm

Iarwain, don't forget little Anakin too. The book in which Han and Leia get married, I believe, is The Courtship of Princess Leia, Myrdock, and they are many books after that.<BR>
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Postby Witchwench » Tue Jul 11, 2000 9:32 pm

Addressing the question of the post: Other authors do publish stories set in ME all the time, they just call it a different name...The entire fantasy genre was influenced so heavily, and some authors so much by Tolkien you could insert the landscape and races right into ME and no one would even notice (need I even mention Terry Brooks' Sword of Shannarra?)...So whether they are allowed to publish stories set in ME is almost a moot point, its already done, just w/o the copyright infringement problem
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Postby Bombadillo » Tue Jul 11, 2000 10:03 pm

In a word: "Hell no!" <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby Wildwood » Wed Jul 12, 2000 8:58 am

Bombadillo, that was an excellent post! Succinct! to the point! And I agree completely! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby Elithil » Wed Jul 12, 2000 10:29 am

I know that in Russia, where I guess copyright laws either do not apply or are not respected, there are books being written and sold set in Middle-earth, same name, hobbits and all. Those books are the biggest piece of cr@p there could ever be. And worse yet, many people only get acquainted with Tolkien's universe through them, which needless to say, doesn't form a very good image of the original in the populace's mind. With such a grievous example before my eyes, I would adamantly say NO, such a state of affairs is to be avoided at all costs.
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Postby Myrdock » Wed Jul 12, 2000 11:21 am

D'oh! I totally messed up on my post! I've already read all those books (including the ones where they get married and have kids) but if they arn't "canon", then did it really happen? I hope so...
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Postby Star-of-Hope » Fri Jul 14, 2000 1:43 am

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock: :shock:
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Re: Will LOTR become less popular over time?

Postby Frodome » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:44 am

No,no. Never. 2014! And we still read the books and love 'em.
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Re: Will LOTR become less popular over time?

Postby Arlaug » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:52 am

No, not really.
Since I've seen this topic just now I might add- Tolkien's works, more often than not, provide a real sanctuary for me. Not now nor at any time in future will I cease to promote it.
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Re: Will LOTR become less popular over time?

Postby Morwenna » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:29 pm

Back before the paperback editions of the mid-'60s, some critic was saying that it looked as if the enthusiasm for the book had mercifully waned in the decade since its publication.

Hah. Fat chance. In only a couple years came the paperback explosion.

Half a century later it's still going strong. I bet that critic isn't even around to see.

'Nuff said. :)
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Re: Will LOTR become less popular over time?

Postby andurilwest » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:11 am

The books remain a cult classic but the movies have broken into the mainstream. Insofar as the movies and merchandise are much more popular than the books, yes, the books have become less popular.
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Re: Will LOTR become less popular over time?

Postby darthgandalf99 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:15 am

I think LOTR is a little beyond a cult classic :lol:

Its among the most widely read literature in the history of the planet.

Agreed the movies are more mainstream, but I would say the books only become less popular insofar as the population of the planet becomes that much larger in proportion.
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Re: Will LOTR become less popular over time?

Postby siddharth » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:32 am

Worth mentioning, that LotR is the second most sold book as of yet. Followed by Hobbit at number 3.
I only recently saw a survey, where LoTR was ranked as the most popular book among the people. Again.

Yes, the movies are less of a classic, but I can still see them holding their position very strongly and are still included into the top 10-50 films of all time by the public. (EMPIRE's latest issue)
And even The Hobbit films are, at least, continuing to maintain the momentum of Tolkien-discussion groups.

Back during the LotR-films, HC reported there was a substantial rise in the books sales for LotR.
Even recently, HC reported that sales of The Hobbit book have increased by 200% since 2012.
And the number of active members in the Tolkien Society facebook group have jumped from 2,500 to 13,000 in a single year.

So yes, I see Tolkien's tales sessile on their position, as darthgandalf put it, as something beyond a cult classic. ;)
Last edited by siddharth on Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will LOTR become less popular over time?

Postby BerenVonRictoffen » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:58 pm

Agreed, but moreover I also think that there will be more film-attempts, and so LotR will become more popular. Jackson's certainly won't be the last, since every classic spurs many films; look at how many versions have been created of Dickens novels alone, or mythology like Hercules, history like Sparacus, or legends like Robin Hood.

The reason it took so long for Tolkien to come to film, I believe, is that few understand it; too many dismiss it as a simple fairy-story, rather than a archetypal political story posed in a mythological genre of British folklore with a moral from Catholicism; and so it flies over the heads of most producers. But as Tolkien wrote, he was writing a mythology for Britain, and this includes the World Wars as classic tragedy.
Jackson broke the ice on Tolkien, and so I think more savvy producers will repeat the attempt.
And so, LotR will become more popular.
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Re: Will LOTR become less popular over time?

Postby Morwenna » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:44 am

That's an interesting way of describing it!
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Re: Will LOTR become less popular over time?

Postby siddharth » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:50 pm

BerenVonRictoffen wrote:Agreed, but moreover I also think that there will be more film-attempts, and so LotR will become more popular. Jackson's certainly won't be the last, since every classic spurs many films; look at how many versions have been created of Dickens novels alone, or mythology like Hercules, history like Sparacus, or legends like Robin Hood.

Most certainly won't be the last. But it is still decades before the rights to it expires. Only then can people attempt. I am sure we'll get something better than Jackson even. But that will be in the form of a TV-series.
I also expect that we'll see more versions of The Hobbit than LotR since the previous is much easier to make while at the same time dealing with basic human characteristics and emotions.

The reason it took so long for Tolkien to come to film, I believe, is that few understand it; too many dismiss it as a simple fairy-story, rather than a archetypal political story posed in a mythological genre of British folklore with a moral from Catholicism; and so it flies over the heads of most producers. But as Tolkien wrote, he was writing a mythology for Britain, and this includes the World Wars as classic tragedy. [/quote]

Also, the budget and technology was simply not there.
I am rather surprised no one was put off Tolkien for a lifetime by Bakshi's attempt and the Rankin Bass RotK.
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Re: Will LOTR become less popular over time?

Postby BerenVonRictoffen » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:45 pm

siddharth wrote:Most certainly won't be the last. But it is still decades before the rights to it expires. Only then can people attempt.

No, they'll simply buy the story-rights from New Line.

Also, the budget and technology was simply not there.

The Wizard of Oz did ok with what they had at the time......

I am rather surprised no one was put off Tolkien for a lifetime by Bakshi's attempt and the Rankin Bass RotK.

Not so much, when compared side-to-side. If you watch Nostalgia Critic's comparison of the two on Youtube, you'll see that he calls them fairly even, while giving the Jackson films only a marginal victory. For example Bakshi shows Frodo actually trying to fight the Witch-king, while Jackson shows Frodo tripping over his on feet and dropping his sword. Meanwhile Bakshi's Aragorn looks like an actual king compared to Jackson's, etc.
You can watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWwg-QJsIhc
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Re: Will LOTR become less popular over time?

Postby siddharth » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:08 pm

Sorry, but "Nostalgia Critic's" opinions are junk.

Bakshi's was an abomination of Tolkien. (and do not mention that they had a lower budget or technology. The problems with the film has nothing to do with budget, by far)
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Re: Will LOTR become less popular over time?

Postby siddharth » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:08 pm

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Re: Will LOTR become less popular over time?

Postby BerenVonRictoffen » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:35 am

Jackson's films were likewise an abomination to Tolkien's work, to those who understand them. The DVD film-commentaries show beyond any doubt, that he refused to defer to the opinions of expert literary analysts regarding the story's depth and meaning; but rather he thought he knew better, despite having no basis for such a belief. And thus, he missed the point completely, making the same errors that Tolkien complained of other scripts.
Hopefully, the next version will improve on these mistakes.
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Re: Will LOTR become less popular over time?

Postby siddharth » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:04 pm

Even for most "purists" I have come across (here or on the Tolkien Society) Jackson did get many aspects right if not all. And his fascination for detail and all the hardwork as seen in the EEs clearly bears the mark of something similar to Tolkien's niggling.
Bakshi's was a butchering of everything Tolkien.

And in any case I am quite sure the "Nostalgia Critic" wasn't revewing them solely on Tolkien.
My question was if anyone was put off by Bakshi, which has to do with how it is as a movie not necessarily Tolkien. It is of course abysmal, while Jackson's was very good - don't bother, not good enough for you I know.

And I do understand Tolkien, thank you. I believe I have read most of his works.
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Re: Will LOTR become less popular over time?

Postby BerenVonRictoffen » Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:50 pm

And his fascination for detail and all the hardwork as seen in the EEs clearly bears the mark of something similar to Tolkien's niggling.

No, it was the movie production-team, with questionable accuracy.

Bakshi's was a butchering of everything Tolkien.

So was Jackson's, he didn't have a clue. I certainly didn't get the message that the Ring represented centralized power, with its allure as well as corruption.
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