Who was more powerful: the Balrog or the Witch King?

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Postby cian » Tue Aug 08, 2000 4:34 am

Pellin, (to post once again the seemingly ignored statement by JRRT)<BR>The WK "feared" Boromir! [Appendices: the chap after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was named] <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Yes, the WK was fairly powerful and very arrogant, but I really think this one statement by Tolkien should certainly colour your "most powerful child of Ilúvatar to ever exist" thinking. <BR><BR>*Belroeg were very powerful. "Demons of Might" were just that!
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Postby Mithfânion » Tue Aug 08, 2000 5:07 am

It seems that others have proven my point quite clearly.<BR><BR><BR>'It was a Balrog of Morgoth', said Legolas; 'of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'" _Mirror of Galadriel_<BR><BR>quote by Tar-Elenion, whcih makes it all very clear. <BR>Another example whcih you probably won''t like is that Glorfindel faced the WK and the WK ran off. Do you remember that??<BR><BR>As for your personal attack, I will ignore it, using my "common sense" <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby Mithfânion » Tue Aug 08, 2000 5:13 am

BTW, your comparisons are , well, ehm, let me put it this way:<BR><BR>if you say good morning to your superior that is indeed sound reasoning. But than you know he is your "boss" and therefore more "powerful"<BR><BR>As for the Gandalf -wk debate, you don't know how to asses this power call. There is no way you can reason that the WK would certainly be stronger. These are two entirely different comparisons.<BR><BR>Common sense will not lead anyone to believe the WK is more powerful, certainly not when Gandalf says:<BR><BR>"And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord."<BR><BR>
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Postby Mithfânion » Tue Aug 08, 2000 8:12 am

BTW, to be more specific, does the Witch King qualify as a child of Iluvatar?<BR><BR>He is not listed as a Man. Men don't live for thousands of years, I think that when he became a ringwraith (which is what the Nazgul are always referred to), he was no longer a Man. The Witch King is a ghost, a ringwraith, only alive because of some mysterious spell, perhaps someone else can explain that better.<BR><BR>Unlike the Mouth of Sauron, who was a living man <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby Witch_King_of_Angmar » Tue Aug 08, 2000 5:06 pm

umm gil galad the WK didn't flee from glorfindel he just continued to chase the ring bearer and only elrond could barely save him from the knife all the balrog could do is fall down a big hole
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Postby Tar-Elenion » Tue Aug 08, 2000 6:47 pm

Right people wrong date. Try a millenium or so earlier.<BR><BR>"Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry. But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows." Appendix A.<BR><BR>The again he was probably just late for tea with the Necromancer and that was why he left in a hurry.
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Postby Pellin » Tue Aug 08, 2000 9:12 pm

Oh dear, I'm sorry for attacking you G-G. My only excuse is it's always late when I get to post... as a matter of fact, rite now for me its minutes till midnight... and I'm ironing somebody's shirt (for money of course <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> But to our point:<BR><BR>I'd like say Hi to T-E: he made a good point, comparing the Witch to Balrogs in number of ELf-Lords-killed. Well, let me say that most of them had been killed off by the time the Witch King was born! Secondly, the Balrogs were vastly powerful beings, but thus overconfident beings --and besides, Elf Lords were almost all there was backintheday of the First Age for them to test their mettle against.<BR><BR>About the Witch's bouts with cowardice: he simply did not want to take the risk inherant with assaulting an Elf Lord, namely Glorfindel from T-E's other post. Balrogs are spiritually greater beings than Elf Lords and Witch King(s), but have been known to be destroyed by these inferior beings (Elf Lords). And my argument is that this is accomplished because an Elf Lord is a valiant hero --and the Witch King is more powerful than an Elf Lord (please don't belabor THAT point), and is a wily hero.<BR><BR>And about Boromir the First: I believe we must recall how bad guys feel fear alot, especially from peeps that can destroy them. And the way I see the Witch work, is he doesn't take uneccesary risks: he CHEATS the last southern King into his untimely demise; he WAITS alone while his wraiths scour the Shire; he FORGOES dueling wiht Gandalf when the Rohirrim arrive; he RUNS when a fiesty Elf Lord of King of Men appears, and he has not anticipated it.<BR><BR>In other words, don't take the man's runnin for his bein weak. I mean, if YOU were out kickin az, and then suddenly someone appears that CAN ACTUALLY KILL YOU, wouldn't you run? I mean, this was once a mortal man, who has achieved what so many others wanted --immortality! OF COURSE he's going to be careful --he's sold his soul to Satan er MORGOTH for eternal life in Middle Earth.<BR><BR>This is an important characteristic of the Witch King which cannot be overlooked: his craftiness. And yes, though a wraith he's still a Child of Illuvatar... just cause Men or Elves die or become evil don't mean allofasudden they cease to become Children, sheesh!<BR><BR>Finally, I re-asert that the old bundle had a better chance at takin down a Balrog than others that did so in the past.<BR><BR>~Pellin~<BR><BR>PS I am SO sorry for attacking G-G and T-E. Guys, my apologies =(
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Postby Celegorm » Tue Aug 08, 2000 9:26 pm

After reading all these posts I've come to this conclusion:<BR>It cannot be determined who would win the fight. Balrogs have been known to defeat elven lords and elven lords have been known to defeat Balrogs. You cannot determine who would win the fight between the Balrog and elf(although most of us would want the elf to win). Therefore, I feel that the odds are 50/50 that either would win.
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Postby Inglor » Wed Aug 09, 2000 12:38 am

If you'll recall, the Witch King was one of the Nazgul, who really weren't all that dangerous in combat. It was largely due to the aura of fear which they exuded that they were so powerful. The elves weren't really affected by this, however. That is why Glorfindel was able, with the help of Aragorn, to chase all nine into the River Bruinen with nothing more than a couple of torches. Also, the Witch King was eventually killed by Merry and Eowyn, who wouldn't have stood a snowball's chance in hell against a Balrog. Remember, the Nazgul were just men who had been turned into wraiths by the Nine Rings, but the Balrogs were full fledged Maia. Fortunately for the good guys, there weren't too many Balrogs left around by the end of the Third Age. In fact, the Balrog of Moria was the only one mentioned in the LOTR and even Gandalf seemed totally taken by surprise when he appeared.
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Postby Witch_King_of_Angmar » Wed Aug 09, 2000 10:17 am

At the gate wk seemed pretty sure of himself and don't forget he wasn't chased into the river chased Frodo he didn't even glofindel and aragorn a glance he was dead set for Frodo and only elrond and Gandalf stopped him though they didn't kill him
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Postby Inglor » Wed Aug 09, 2000 11:18 am

It is true that the Ringwraiths entered the river chasing Frodo and the Ring, but remember the scene: "Caught between fire and water, and seeing an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath, they were dismayed..." Later, when Frodo awoke in Rivendell, he asked Gandalf about what had happened and if the shining white figure he had seen on the far bank behind his pursuers was Glorfindel, Gandalf said, "Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn." And just before this Gandalf said of the Elves, "They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." This wasn't the first time that Glorfindel's presence had driven off the Witch King. Remember the Battle of Fornost in T.A. 1975, mentioned in the appendices of the LOTR. So I think that a Balrog, whose power was comparable to that of Glorfindel, would have been more than a match for a mere Ringwraith. I really don't think the Witch King would have been very intimidating to a being who had withstood the presence of the likes of Morgoth. As far as the Witch King's confidence in his victory over Gandalf is concerned, it is possible that he didn't realize the awesome power that was concealed beneath the frail looking body of the White Rider, who was certainly the most powerful being in Middle-earth after Sauron himself. In actuality, it was only over mortal men that the Ringwraiths had any great power. I don't think Maia or even Elves would have been greatly affected by their sorcery.
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Postby Pellin » Wed Aug 09, 2000 2:30 pm

You forget that a Balrog, by definition, is a far mightier being than an Elf Lord. Balrogs hunted and killed Elf Lords. The best an Elf Lord ever did to a Balrog was take 'em down with him. This is because a Balrog is a dark angelic power, of the same order as Gandalf and Sauron. However, Sauron is of a much greater stature, while Gandalf is equatable. Nomatter how awesome an Elf is, he is just an Elf (Manwe to Feanor: "Remember what thou art"), and a maia is a maia. THe reason Elf-Lords were ever able to destroy these demons is one of valour, courage, holiness, goodness, virtue, etc etc, that more than make up for an Elf's spiritual inferiority.<BR><BR>I make the case that an Elf-Lord and a King of Men are spiritually equal; that the Witch King is a King of Men that #1 has a mad Ring, #2 is a sorcerer, and #3 is a wiley SOB, and thus more of a chessman than warrior (I use #3 to explain his running from GLorfindel backintheday: imagine if you showed up at what you thought was a cake-walk of a fight, and allofasudden someone shows up that CAN ACTUALLY hurt you!). And I conclude that the Witch King is, spiritually, more powerful than any King of Men or Elves, and thus probably the mightiest of all the Children of Illuvatar.<BR><BR>Which of course still means he is inferior to the Balrog, from that perspective. However, my thesis remains intact, from the postulate that if Elf Lords could handle Balrogs, one greater than an Elf Lord can also handle Balrogs.<BR><BR>Of course, this is assuming eithers tricks would work on either: the Balrogs fire and darkness would not have hampered the Witch King in any way, and neither would the WItch's morgul knife or horror impact the Balrog. I find it ironic that we're all arguing about who would kick whose az in a fight that would never happen --the two would probably stroll into the Shire and have a few drinks together!<BR><BR>Lastly, if all that I've credited the Witch King with is true, imagine that scene at the gates of Minas Tirith in that light... the immortal man, the one being whose finally gotten that which all his Race have so striven for; and power beyond the scope of Men OR Elves; thousands of years of life playing a game of chess with the West; and Gandalf the White, servant of the secret fire, yet stands in his way. And it seems to all (as thus indeed it did, for Wraiths scare Men!) that Gandalf's stand was hollow: it was not a 1 on 1 battle, but 8 wraiths plus the Witch King plus a whole freaking army against 1 wizard. And then, finally, at the conclusion of a fight that was all Witch King (letz face it, Eowyn sucked), he is made to kneel by the woman he crushed. Get that, "Immortal Man, in the midst of his triumph, is made to bow before the sword-tip of Woman, whom he was about to destroy." And then the girl, a country bumpkin never before been in battle, destroyed the Wraithlord --slayer of kings by peasant slain.<BR><BR>Wow, I should turn that in for my next English paper. Which is due on monday... hmm...<BR><BR>~Pellin~
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Postby Witch_King_of_Angmar » Thu Aug 10, 2000 2:40 pm

I like that part about mightiest of Elves or men
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Postby Witch_King_of_Angmar » Thu Aug 10, 2000 2:40 pm

I like that part about mightiest of Elves or men
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Postby Pellin » Fri Aug 11, 2000 6:12 pm

Hey... hey guys, czekk this out! THE WITCH KING WON! YAAAY! *dances about* I can hear cheering in the streets! A debate has actually been SOLVED on the messageboards! The Balrog has been prooved a wuss, and the Witch King exhonerated as the true badass he is be! YAAAY!<BR><BR>I'd like to take this opportunity to say, thank-you to the Witch King for being so cool, and the member WitchKingofAngmar for hanging in there and starting this post. I remember when I first found this thread, that everyone was for the Balrog and noone was sayin sheet about the WItch King. Oh, and thanks to everyone else who had the wrong opinion =)<BR><BR>So I actually participated in an upset overthrow solution! Hey Witch King, I'd but ya a drink, but I've no idea where on Earth you are. Just stop by New York City sometime, like when they give me Liberty, and we can hang out.<BR><BR>ttyl,<BR><BR>~Pellin~
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Postby Mithfânion » Sat Aug 12, 2000 7:15 am

Witch King: Please read the books before you reply. No need for you to apologise.<BR><BR>Pellin, are you insane ?
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Postby Mithfânion » Sat Aug 12, 2000 7:46 am

I don't feel like giving any arguments as to why the Balrog was far more powerful. Obviously other posters have done so , by either stating facts or just stating their general impressions.<BR><BR>Also, I feel that this thread had somehow been drawn into ridicule.<BR><BR>"The Mightiest of Elves and Men" ? I probably shouldn't add that he was beaten by a girl warrior and a Hobbit. Yes, powerful indeed.<BR><BR>Before you add that Sauron was destroyed by a Hobbit, let me point out that the B-itch King was beaten by single combat. He wasn't that much, a rather small villain.<BR><BR>
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Postby Pellin » Mon Aug 14, 2000 7:08 am

G-G, re-read the fight: the Witch King hits her with his mace. Bam, her shield and arm shatter. THen he goes back, and fer sure if that damn worm in the mud (as he saw it) hadn't been more than a worm in the mud, the second smash would've totally destroyed her. No contest: two swings and she's gone. Eowyn never stood a chance: the Lord of the Nazgul wasn't bullsheeting when he said "Do not come between a Nazgul and his prey!"<BR><BR>In calling the Witch King a lesser badguy, you ignore the fact that he was a King of Men (in original stature a little less than Aragorn). You ignore the fact that he was a Witch (in power a little less than a Wizard). You ignore the fact he had a mad Ring (in potency a little less than one of the Three). You ignore the fact that he was a Wraith (for whom death seems to be difficult, and the terror of death neutralizes his mortal enemies into cowards). And you ignore the fact that he was all these things at once.<BR><BR>You also ignore the fact that this makes him more powerful than any Elf-Lord we can compare him to: Feanor might've been a match, but not FIngolfin or any lesser Elves: if Fingolfin wounded the Witch instead of Morgoth, his arm would've gone numb and hung useless. But then, of course you would then overlook the conclusion that what any Elf-Lord can do, one greater than an Elf-Lord can do.<BR><BR>In short, you have an idea in your head, and refuse to listen to any argument to the counter. You have reduced yourself form a thinking being to a taped recording of your own opinions, yelling them over and over and over again.<BR><BR>Please, re-read the specific part of the Flight to the Ford, Seige of GOndor and Battle of the Pellenor Fields. Glorfindel don't scare nobody but flutterin' HORSES. But, for dynamism's sake, I will now approach from an entire different stance:<BR><BR>Why did TOlkien hold the Witch King in such high esteem? Why did Gandalf himself attempt to go after him? WHy did the big G not just say, "Oh, he's a lesser badguy, just let some soldier go kill 'em." Or even “Let Aragorn go kill ‘em.” Why did Sauron hold him in such honor? Could some orc-captain or brigand have destroyed the Numenorean kingdom of Arnor? And why, when describing the Balrog, does TOlkien talk about its great shadow going forth and all, and then he speaks the same of the Witch King? By all illustrative accounts the Balrog and Witch King are the same, except what the one lacks in fire the other lacks in horror and terror.<BR><BR>And the Witch King is known for running when not COMPLETELY SURE of his victory. If Merry had not been there, or had been other than a hobbit, of the WK knew more about hobbits, the battle with Eowyn would've gone "Hit, smash. Hit, smash," and that would've been IT. Completely one-sided. And good god Gil Galad, you make it seem that she bested him in one on one combat! And yet, in the face of such AN EASY VICTORY, it yet says that "...the RIngwriath made no answerm and was silent, as if in sudden doubt." OF COURSE such a cautios sonofagun would've run from Glorfindel: he dislikes it when his enemy actually has a fighting chance. AND YET, SUCH A CAUTIOUS CHESSMAN FULLY CONFRONTED GANDALF, SAYING "DIE NOW AND CURSE IN VAIN!"<BR><BR>If you were right G-G, then Sauron was a fool and better off using the bird-thing the Witch rode on as his Number 2.<BR><BR>Now, these arguments are sound and rely on imagery and actual text rather than extrapolation --after all, we can extrapolate from the Luthien vs. Morgoth/Sauron fights that Sauron was more powerful than Morgoth lol. But basically, Gil-Galad, you need to show that Sorcery and Rings and Wraithdom does not enhance a King of Men above the stature of a Balrog-besting Elf (difficult to do); you need to show that the Witch was often overconfident (polar to his nature); you need to show that the Balrog and the Witch do not have similar if not exactly the same imagery (when in fact they do); you need to establish the fact that the Witch was a lesser badguy (how in hell you plan to do that I have no idea). It would also be good for your argument to show that the battle with Eowyn was NOT one-sided (contradictory to the text).<BR><BR>In short, I can see no way your argument will hold water.<BR><BR>Who, me? Insane? Well, smewhat, as genius is merely successful insanity (he said without a note of arrogance). So please do us all a favor and dust off yer LOTR... I did last nite, and heck if it didn't help.<BR>
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Postby Mithfânion » Mon Aug 14, 2000 8:03 am

Dear Pellin,<BR><BR>When I spoke of your insanity I was referring to this:<BR><BR>"Hey... hey guys, czekk this out! THE WITCH KING WON! YAAAY! *dances about* I can hear cheering in the streets! A debate has actually been SOLVED on the messageboards! The Balrog has been prooved a wuss, and the Witch King exhonerated as the true badass he is be! YAAAY!"<BR><BR>furthermore you wrote:<BR><BR>" I'd like to take this opportunity to say, thank-you to the Witch King for being so cool, and the member WitchKingofAngmar for hanging in there and starting this post. I remember when I first found this thread, that everyone was for the Balrog and noone was sayin sheet about the WItch King. Oh, and thanks to everyone else who had the wrong opinion =)"<BR><BR>End quote. Since this debate has not been resolved and you have turned NO ONE, I am trying my utmost to understand why you seem to be so pleased with yourself. Of course you will respond to this telling me it was all a joke and I need to relax.<BR><BR>As for the insanity, since you seem to think that Genius is merely succesfull insanity, and since you seem to consider yourself a genius based on the riduculous statements that you have made sofar, perhaps you will consider that all geniuses often suffer from manic depressions. Perhaps you are experiencing that right now.<BR><BR>
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Postby Mithfânion » Mon Aug 14, 2000 8:21 am

<BR><BR>I thought I'd bring this up as well, it is one of your previous posts.<BR>"In other words, don't take the man's runnin for his bein weak. I mean, if YOU were out kickin az, and then suddenly someone appears that CAN ACTUALLY KILL YOU, wouldn't you run? I mean, this was once a mortal man, who has achieved what so many others wanted:immortality! OF COURSE he's going to be careful --he's sold his soul to Satan er MORGOTH for eternal life in Middle Earth".<BR><BR>So what you are in fact saying is that he is allowed to run away from his enemies because otherwise he would be killed. Ehm, let me try to understand this compelling argument: If the Witch King was stronger than these enemies, such as Boromir, whom he feared or Glorfindel the "inferior" Elf Lord as you call him, from which he ran from the Battlefield, why then, would he run. Of course, he would be scared to lose your life, but only when those that face you are in fact stronger than you are yourself. <BR><BR>BTW, I never heard of a Balrog fleeing from an Elf Lord.<BR><BR>"and the Witch King is more powerful than an Elf Lord (please don't belabor THAT point), and is a wily hero".<BR><BR>This you wrote as well. Why? There is no proof of that. He ran from Glorfindel and the same Glorfindel scared off at least 4 Nazgul at the Bridge of Mitheithel, as you will find in the LoTR.<BR><BR>"Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry. But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows." Appendix A.<BR><BR>Of course, since you describe yourself as brilliant, it is obvious that the Witch King was the Mightiest of Elves and Men, as you call him.<BR><BR>
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Postby Mithfânion » Mon Aug 14, 2000 8:46 am

But let us continue:<BR><BR>In my opinion, from reading the books, Tolkien gave the Balrog far greater stature than the Witch King. Let me explain why I feel that way.<BR><BR>"It was a Balrog of Morgoth', said Legolas; 'of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'"<BR><BR>This states explicitely that the Balrog is the number two danger.<BR><BR>Furthermore, the Glorfindel who made the Witch King ran off, faced a Balrog in the First Age. He was slain by that Balrog, but slew the Balrog as well. Let us not ignore this, this is a power call. The Balrog therefore is very likely more powerful than the the WK.<BR><BR>Also, I agree that Eowyn alone would have easily been beaten by the Witch King, whom I consider far too strong for her. whether or not he considered Merry a worm or not, he allowed himself to be beaten by a Hobbit and a woman (be it a brave one).<BR><BR>Furthermore, you state that he was at least as powerful as Feanor, but Fingolfin and other Elf Lords would have been beaten. You even mention that Fingolfin would break his arm on the WK?? Yes, succesfull insanity. some observations:<BR><BR>1. Feanor was NOT more powerful than Fingolfin, read the Sil.<BR>2. Fingolfin battled the Mightiest being in Arda ( that was Morgoth Pellin)and gave him an incredible fight. He was a very powerful Elf and would very likely have no trouble with the Nazgul, I think that this is a very safe assumption.<BR>3. Elendil and Gil-Galad beat Sauron and were killed in the process. Sauron is far more powerful than his lieutenant, the WK. Do you really feel that he is the mightiest of Elves and Men and that an Elflord is not capable of beating him? Do you really?<BR><BR>Finally, at the end of your last post you make all sort of wild assumptions as to what I should be proving to you. I need to prove NONE of the things you mentioned. I have proven my point VERY validly in other ways. Also, since you accuse me of not listening to your points, and acting like a taperecorder, why than am I replying to your nonsense now? Because I am still interested in teaching you the obvious.
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Postby asaris » Mon Aug 14, 2000 9:40 am

Two quick points:<BR><BR>1) Are you sure, G-G, that Feanor was not more powerful than Fingolfin? I don't have my Silmarillion here, but I seem to remember it saying that Feanor was the most powerful of the noldor, and his equal has not been seen since...<BR><BR>2) As much as I agree with G-G, I want to make one point clear. It seems reasonable to think, as witch_king points out, that the witch king fled from Glorfindel because he was startled, not because he was afraid. It's like if you're out hunting deer, and a lion shows up. Could you shoot the lion? Sure. Are you going to be startled that something a bit more dangerous than a deer showed up? Yep.<BR><BR>I do not, however, think that the witch-king would have fled if he could have stood up to Glorfindel. The fact that he flees does not only mean that Glorfindel is more dangerous than, say, Frodo, it means that Glorfindel is a very real threat on the witch-king's life. The prophecy does not, btw, mean that w-k cannot be killed by a man, it just means that, as things turn out, he won't be killed by a man.<BR><BR>Anyway, if w-k and the balrog are getting drinks in the shire, what would they talk about? Somehow I think sports are out...
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Postby Mithfânion » Mon Aug 14, 2000 10:11 am

Asaris:<BR><BR>There is of course room for discussion when it comes to who is stronger, Feanor and Fingolfin. Certainly Feanor was the most gifted of all the Children of Iluvatar and indeed his likes will never be seen again until the Changing of the World. There is discussion, because the quotes regarding Feanor and Fingolfin contradict eacht other.<BR><BR>in of the Princes of the Eldalie:<BR><BR>" Fingolfin was the strongest, most steadfast and bravest of the Sons of Finwe".<BR><BR>Of course this is all irrelevant to the discussion we have had sofar, concerning the WK and the Balrog,but at least I have provided an explination <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Pellin » Mon Aug 14, 2000 6:56 pm

(I shouldn't be online rite now, but its all good)<BR><BR>Princes of the Eldalie is a title I have personally never heard of. THank-you G-G for clarifying those few points (though GLorfindel did not scare no wraiths; it was the horses, and I could quote, but won't cause you have a copy).<BR><BR>I must say I felt a bit odd back when I posted, but that was because, as I saw it, after my final post noone else was posting. FOr a day or two, noone posted after mine, which left me to conclude there was nothign else to say on the your side of the debate.<BR><BR>And as far as my intelligence level... let's not bring that up again, it was a mere slight which I found personally funny. But then again, 18 credit hours is alot of work... <BR><BR>ANyhow, here i need to defer to those Ringfreaks who truly are. I LIKE LotR; some of my friends think I'm a ringfreak, but I've only read LotR three times. I've read the Sil alot yeah, but not all the other dozen or so Tolkien books and compilations and whatnot. I think through general impression and the common feel of the books (as perceived through my personal thinking-patterns); and as far as the Sil goes, there is no real doubt in my mind taht Feanor was the more badass of the two. But I will defer to you loremasters, for whom the quote exhonerating Fingolfin is common knowledge.<BR><BR>In short, "mah bad." Though, perhaps the Witch King would've done the same with the Balrog as every other hero: died with him. I think thats a good vision of probability, and a compromise on the matter.<BR><BR>Manic depression? Well, dunno about that, I'm at a US Military Academy, you'd think I was pretty stable =) At worst I'm good at concealing emotional extremes? But anyway...<BR><BR>Thanks G-G for acting as mature as you have during this conversation. I can see how I would appear a bit loony, since the argument wasn't really at an end! Kinda funny from this end <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>~Pellin~
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Postby Mithfânion » Tue Aug 15, 2000 1:42 am

Pellin.<BR><BR>Of course a case can be made that Feanor was indeed slightly more powerful than Fingolfin, there are other quotes relating to that. It's just that I think that the difference between them is so small that you can't really say:"yeah Feanor would beat him, but Fingolfin wouldn't". Finarfin would probably be equal as well.<BR><BR>I should probably admit that I base a lot of what I write here on general impression from all the books as well. I test my knowledge and understanding of the Profs books by coming here. It's just that lately we have had several intense debates in which exact quotes were necessary. Anyhow, the manic depression part was of course a stupid remark from this side.<BR><BR>Greetings.<BR>
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Postby Tar-Elenion » Tue Aug 15, 2000 6:11 pm

The point is not who was greatest (and JRRT says Luthien Tinuviel was the greatest), but rather just what were they greatest at. Feanor was the greatest craftsman yes. But was he a better healer than, say Elrond? Not likely. Was he greater in strength than Fingolfin? Would not seem so. Wiser than Finarfin? Probably not. When discussing greatness it is all relative and depends on the attributes in question.
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Postby Cranthor » Wed Aug 16, 2000 4:36 am

Feanor would have been the best at whatever he did. "Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtelty alike, of ALL the Children of Illuvatar" Pretty straight forward in saying who was the greatest. Feanor was a freak occurance and there shouldn't be any question as to who is the greatest. Tolkien priases other elves such as Fingolfin and Luthien, but nowhere does he praise them as much or in such a manner as he did Feanor here. Look up Feanor in the Index of names.....Feanor: Eldest son of Finwe, Half brother of Fingolfin and Finarfin; GREATEST of the Noldor...." It didn't seem here that Tolkien had forgotten about Fingolfin and Finarfin as he mentioned them right before declaring Feanor as the greatest of the Noldor.
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Postby Mithfânion » Wed Aug 16, 2000 5:13 am

Cranthor, your post makes me really sad about his death, it would have been nice if he was still around.<BR><BR>Still, I don''t want to bring up the various interpretations of greatness.
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Postby Frode » Wed Aug 16, 2000 5:14 pm

I agree 100\% with Tar-E (!!! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>)<BR>Fingolfin was for example the greatest warrior among the elves, while Finrod and his father were the wiser. Feanor was the greatest craftsman.
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Postby Satriani » Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:41 pm

what? Glorifindel was not a small FRY! He was of the Noldor race. Not much less than a maiar. Passed the grinding ice. Went thru a lot , he could have taken the witch king or any of those other pesky black riders
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