Who was more powerful: the Balrog or the Witch King?

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Postby Witch_King_of_Angmar » Fri Jul 21, 2000 1:01 pm

I was rereading the fellowship and after gandalf falls one of the elves in lothlorien or maybe it was legolas says that they fear the balrog only less than the dark lord but the witch king is the 2 most well versed in the dark arts so who is more powerfull and who would win in a fight
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Postby Pallando » Fri Jul 21, 2000 1:08 pm

I'd say the Balrog; sorry Witch_King. They were Maia afterall, and the Witch King was only a man.<BR><BR>Pallando
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Postby Blackeagle » Fri Jul 21, 2000 2:22 pm

The Balrog, definitely. It is a Maia (putting it on the order of Gandalf, Saumuran and Sauron himself). The Witch King is only a man, even if his life and powers have been extended by a magic ring.<BR><BR>Blackeagle
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Postby Bombadillo » Fri Jul 21, 2000 2:30 pm

I believe that the Balrog has a clear advantage here. I'd put him in league with true monsters like Smaug and Angalacon the Black.
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Postby Mithfânion » Sat Jul 22, 2000 6:09 am

The Balrog<BR>no doubt what so ever. The Witch King was a pure sorcerer, put he would be "blown" away by the Balrog's raw power
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Postby Frode » Sat Jul 22, 2000 11:23 am

This is actually not an easy question. Normally the balrog is more powerful no doubt, but when the witch king is filled with an increasing amount of Saurons hatred and strength I think he is more powerful than the balrog. Just think about the Pelennor battle. Gandalf held the nazgul off for a night until he managed to flee from Weathertop. At the gates of Minas Tirith however the Black Captain is absolutely certain that he will kill Gandalf by himself ('Grey fool, don't you know death when you see it. This is my hour'). I think some of the power of Sauron was in the Black captain at this point. I get the feeling from this passage that Gandalf would indeed have died if the tide of battle had not swept the nazgul lord away.
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Postby Bombadillo » Sat Jul 22, 2000 11:45 am

Another point, if Sauron held the One I think that the Black Captain would have been a truly terrifying opponent.
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Postby Blackeagle » Sun Jul 23, 2000 7:35 pm

Well, the Nazgul certanly don't seem to be that strong at the beginning of LOTR, three of them fled when they encountered Glorfindel at the Bridge of Mitheithel. Glorfindel may be a powerful Elf Lord, but he's pretty small fry compared to Maiar like the Balrog.<BR><BR>Blackeagle
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Postby Laraphi_The_Blue » Sun Jul 23, 2000 7:39 pm

Depends on the circumstances. Most likely Balrog- especially in Moria or a forest. Mordor- Wiki. At least that's what I think.
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Postby Mablung » Mon Jul 24, 2000 6:19 am

Bet the balrog tasting Glorfindel's steel in Gondolin wouldn't call him small fry.
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Postby Mithfânion » Mon Jul 24, 2000 9:43 am

Indeed, Glorfindel was a very powerful Elf Lord, and I don't thin k he was any less than most Maia, Sauron of course excluded.<BR><BR>The Balrog had great power of its own, but would be no match for Sauron "the greatest of Morgoth's servants". If you accept that The Witch King got his power from Sauron, then one could say that he was more powerful. Personally, I don't think this was true. He may have gotten an amount of Sauron's power, but never ever as much as Sauron himself actually had. The Balrog would kill the WK I think
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Postby Jon Goatleaf » Mon Jul 24, 2000 11:14 am

Considering the fact that Gandalf and the Balrog were just about equal, and that Gandalf beat up five Nazgul, I'd say that the Balrog could easily SMUSH at least five wraiths. Sorry WiKi, but Durin's Bane was bigger, badder, and stronger.
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Postby HanSolo » Mon Jul 24, 2000 5:18 pm

Gotta jump on the band-wagon here and place my bets on the Balrog. I don't remember anything freaking out an elf but Legolas sure didn't like the idea of hanging out with the Balrog.
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Postby Kelannar » Mon Jul 24, 2000 7:30 pm

I dunno. The Witch-King has "male" immunity. And either the Balrog is male or female. Even though he's a Maia, Tolkien writes that the difference in sex was there from the beginning, even before the Valar took on a shape. <BR><BR>So unless the Balrog is female, The Witch-King's got an ace up his sleeve.<BR>
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Postby Damelion » Mon Jul 24, 2000 7:47 pm

I would not want to start adding sex to the equation. I think I fear a women libber more than even the Balrog. Dangerous ground you trend. hahahaha...<BR><BR>Now if we were talking Gothmog Lord of the Balrogs, there would be NO question that he is stronger. But we must get into stronger in what way. Shear physcial force would go to the Balrog of Moria's Depths however, even though the Balrog could be a spell caster, I would believe that WiKi would have the upper hand... But I think I would run if I say either of them!!!..<BR><BR><BR><BR>
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Postby Mitheradan » Wed Aug 02, 2000 1:12 pm

There is no contest...the Balrog would wipe the floor with the WitchKing. Sure the WitchKing was a great sorceror and his ring did increase his power, but he is not near the level of a Maia. <BR><BR>In Sindarin, the word Balrog means Demon of Power, Valaraukar for you Quenya buffs out there. This was not a name that they choose for themselves to impress people. It was given to them by the Elves who saw them in battle and the power that they wielded.<BR><BR>Next to Sauron, the Balrogs were Morgoth's greatest and most powerful servants. Can't see much that can stand against them especailly, not the Wraith-form of a lesser being.<BR><BR>My feelings.
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Postby elionindorfin » Thu Aug 03, 2000 6:52 pm

'not by the hand of a man will he be slain'or something like that. those were the words of glorfindol in the war that ravaged arnor. too bad jrrt wrote in english, because in english man can mean male or human.nevertheless, whether the balrog be male or female, the wkoa wouldn't stand a chance. throughout the lotr it has been stated that gandalf never used his full potential(he wasn't even allowed to). the wkoa did(he had to)<BR>anar kaluva tielyanna<BR>elion indorfin<BR>.
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Postby Mithfânion » Fri Aug 04, 2000 12:31 pm

Mitheradan, aren't you forgetting Gllaurung and Ancalagon? El Dragon <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby TheMadMonk » Sun Aug 06, 2000 9:05 pm

I agree with the Balrog votes, but either way, that would be one fun battle to watch.
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Postby Bombadillo » Sun Aug 06, 2000 9:13 pm

I'm not so sure that there would be a battle in the way that everyone is anticipating. The Witch King did not fight fair, ever. Think about the one time when he really did commit himself to combat, it was when he was mounted (on a winged steed no less) and fighting a lone woman. I don't think the WK would have met the Balrog one on one, who would? I think that the odds would be a little better if he had Sauron's full power driving him and the ability to be his full evil self, i.e.; lie, cheat, and backstab.
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Postby Pellin » Mon Aug 07, 2000 7:13 am

The Witch-King MAY have killed Gandalf the White: he seemed very confident of his own victory ("This is my hour you gonna die suckah"), while Gandalf the White, before he went ot help Faramir, was speaking wiht Pippin about how much he needed to go confront the Witch King. That says to me Gandalf was fairly confident of his own victory. IE, it would have been an even match between the White Wizard and the Witch.<BR><BR>Which of course leads me to conclude Gandalf the GREY would not have had such a fair chance against the Witch King. Sure, he was able to HOLD OFF several lesser wraiths, but a Sorcerer? With a Ring? As a Wraith? Riding a cool pterodactyl thing?<BR><BR>Lastly, power itself does not necessarily mean victory: the Balrog was badaz, but the Which King --who was GtW's equal, thus GtG's superior-- would most likely find the Balrog a match. But not a definite victory either way: though spiritually greater, Balrogs and Dragons etc. have been defeated by spiritually lesser opponents. IE, Elendil/Gil-Galad and Sauron; whoevertheElfwas and Gothmog in Gondolin.<BR><BR>Basically, if an Elf Lord can kill a Balrog, a Witch King can kill a Balrog. My vote is for the Witch King: he was a wiley snot, after all!<BR><BR>~Pellin~
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Postby cian » Mon Aug 07, 2000 9:13 am

Kelennar, the WK was not 'immune" to Men. He even feared Boromir<BR>(not the Boromir of the Nine Walkers) It's a prophecy not a protective spell <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Mithfânion » Mon Aug 07, 2000 10:40 am

Pellin, the name of that Elf from Gondolin was either Glorfindel or Ecthelion of the Fountain who killed gothmog <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Your Balrog vs Witch King comparison doesn't work. You assume that the Witch King was Gandalf the White's equal and because the barlog was Gandalf the grey's equal,you put your money on the WK. Why doesn't this work?<BR><BR>Well, because there is absolutely nothing pointing towards any equalness between the WK and Gandalf the White. He may have been confident but that is not conclusive. Unless they fight, you will never know if he equalled Gandalf the White,so therefore you can't compare him with the Balrog, based on a "possible" fight with Gandalf.<BR><BR>At least, IMO <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Witch_King_of_Angmar » Mon Aug 07, 2000 3:20 pm

quote"old fool do you not know death when you see it die now and curse in vain" sounds weak and wimpy uh hu yeah yup
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Postby Witch_King_of_Angmar » Mon Aug 07, 2000 3:22 pm

go pellin
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Postby Witch_King_of_Angmar » Mon Aug 07, 2000 3:31 pm

Bambadillo has a point you are all missingthe Witch King doesn't fight fair a morgul knife wound bring the balrog down and kill him even if the Witch King was already dead and Merry hurt him because his blade was made to hurt wraiths the balrogs isn't also no one ever decided if balrogs have wings so the Witch King might have the advantage of flight also if their was a fight they would bring their armies into it so the 9 nazgul with winged mounts with asorted wights and angmarien/morgul creatures and some orcs versus orcs trolls and a balrog also who did sauron have looking for the ring the 9 not the balrog even though the One was his biggest need/quest
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Postby Tar-Elenion » Mon Aug 07, 2000 8:04 pm

"'It was a Balrog of Morgoth', said Legolas; 'of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'" _Mirror of Galadriel_<BR><BR>"'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'" _The White Rider_<BR><BR>Ecthelion of the Fountain slew and was slain by Gothmog in Gondolin. Glorfindel slew and was slain by an unnamed Balrog in the Cirith while ptotecting the refugges from the fall of Gondolin.<BR><BR>WKoA: What exactly do you think that a Morgul knife is going to do to a Balrog?<BR>
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Postby Pellin » Mon Aug 07, 2000 9:13 pm

I will not back away from my argument that sheer power does not lead to victory. Lesser spiritual beings have triumphed over greater ones time and time again; Luthien and Morgoth; Beren and Carcaroth; ARagorn and Sauron (when he twisted the palantir from the Dark Lord's grasp). These are all examples of the TOlkien-ish style of valour beating the odds.<BR><BR>And the Witch King? He was the most powerful man ever to exist, and one of the most wiley. He was deadly. Though he had to flee his realm, he caused the extinction of a nation of Dunedain. He destroied the SOuthern DUnedian's line of Kings. Now, as far as his specific tactics are concerned... the Balrog would've had fun fun trying to hurt the Witch without paralyzing himself. And who knows which will win, darkness or terror? Fire or sorcery?<BR><BR>As far as the tradition of Balrogs and other powerful beings of Morgoth, they have ever been trampled by heroes. And though he was evil, the Witch King was indeed a hero of old. ANd probably the most powerful of all the Children of Illuvatar to ever exist. And knowing that Elves were known to have dispatched Balrogs, I do affirm that the Witch King was badaz enough to triumph over his "superiors", both the Balrog and his arguably-equal Gandalf the White.<BR><BR>Besides, remember how scared the Elves were, when Frodo --staying in an elfin wayrest-- mentioned black riders? Though Elves have no fear of the ghosts of men, they do have fear for the Nazgul --and the darker a creature the more it fears, ie Morgoth and Sauron etc. And I do think this Balrog would've had quite a time with the WItch King alone, not even considering the Witch's shocktroops or fellow wraiths.<BR><BR>Lastly, in re-affirmation I should say that the Witch King was no fool, and when he confronted the White RIder that day, I think it a pretty positive statement that he was gonna rock the house. But then, Gandalf felt led to confront the Witch King himself, which leads me back to my first premise: Gandalf the White equals the Witch King. But even if you don't want to accept that, accept the fact that the Witch was a hero, and heroes are known to often destroy spiritually greater enemies. Like Balrogs.<BR><BR>As an addendum, I'd like to say right here that if they ever met, the Balrog and Witch King would probably stop the fight midway and go buy each other a beer in Minas Morgul. I mean, the two are more similar to each other than Sauron... and I bet that Balrog has some funny stories about the First Age ("This one time, Sauron had to find this roving band of Elves, and Morgoth was like...").<BR><BR>But really peeps, if the Witch King could've stood his ground against the greatest power in ME besides Sauron, I think he could've done more than just hold his ground against some snotty ol Balrog.<BR><BR>~Pellin~
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Postby Pellin » Mon Aug 07, 2000 9:24 pm

If I may be a snot, I'll say these two things...<BR><BR>G-G: No, they do not hafta fight for us to know who would win. You assume knowledge can only be gleaned from experience. I can say murder is wrong without having to bloody my hands; for crying out loud use some common sense: all thinking beings INDUCE reasoning. I see an unknown but superior officer nearby, I give a cheery GOOD MORNING SIR --and I do NOT need the personal experience of him yelling at other plebes, or yelling at me myself, to know that. You see, this INDUCTIVE reasonign process is haphazard yes, but governed by the rules of logic and common sense.<BR><BR>Thesis: If an Elf-Lord can kill a Balrog, a Witch King can kill a Balrog. Contradict dat.
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Postby Tar-Elenion » Mon Aug 07, 2000 9:42 pm

The Witch-King is the 'most powerful of the Children of Illuvatar to ever exist'. HA, HA , HA. Very Funny. That is a joke right Pellin? No seriously that is a joke right?<BR><BR><BR>Name an Elf-lord that the Witch-King killed. I can name several slain by Balrogs.<BR><BR>
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