Why do the Valar curse Feanor, when he was tricked into everything by Melkor???

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Postby Dk_Strider » Fri Sep 01, 2000 3:35 pm

Why do the Valar curse Feanor, when he was tricked into everything by Melkor??? Can they not tell that feo wasent that way from the beggining, but for melkor he was?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Strider
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Postby Mitheradan » Fri Sep 01, 2000 3:47 pm

Feanor was not tricked into anything by Melkor. True that he stole the simarils and killed Finwe, but Feanor chose his actions himself. <BR> <BR>He has always been this way. When he made the silmarils, he would not let anyone see them. When his father remarried and had two more sons, Feanor was jealous and acted extremly petty towards them. He drew a sword on Fingolfin and almost attacked him in Tirion. It was his descision to take the Oath, his descision to attack the Havens of the Teleri to take the ships when they refused to help and it was his descision to leave the other Noldor behind and abandon them. <BR> <BR>His whole life was leading up to this. He made his own bed and he paid for it. By the way, The Valar cursed the Noldor that went into exile as a whole, not just Feanor.
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Postby Círdan » Fri Sep 01, 2000 4:33 pm

Amen Mitheradan, sing it brother!
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Postby Avarya » Sat Sep 02, 2000 7:42 am

Melkor picked his mark with care. Pride goeth before a Cursing.
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Postby Dk_Strider » Sat Sep 02, 2000 8:48 am

If melkor had not taken the sims, feanor would not have gone mad. the valar should have helped him in his quest. knowing he was going to get to middle earth some way by his oath, they should have sent message to the Teleri to let him borrow their boats. He is going to face their enamy, anyways,<BR><BR><BR><BR>Strider
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Postby Dark_Lord » Sat Sep 02, 2000 9:07 am

Hi all, im new here (kinda). Ive been hanging around the message board for a while and finnaly sighned up. As for your question Strider, Feanor did kinda go crazy, but he could have held back and let the Valar handle it, since Melkor was an enamy greater than any of the Valar (or so the sill says) he chose wrongly to swear an oath vs him, when he knew better.<BR><BR><BR>Dark
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Postby Mithfânion » Sat Sep 02, 2000 10:07 am

I can understand your question Strider. I do agree with you that the Valar should have acted. The one thing I blaim the Valar is NOT that they cursed the exiling Noldor, but that they didn't act themselves. I still feel that they could and should have done more.<BR><BR>Feanor tho, was by nature an extremely fiery spirit. He was gifted beyond imagination, but he was also aware of this and therefore,he would take advice from no one ( The sil tells us this, it also says that in the beginning, he listened to Nerdanel, his wife, a little bit). He is brilliant, but not wise. Melkor realised that Feanor was his greatest enemy and therefore Feanor was the centre, the target of his lies and deceit. Melkor was playing with Feanor's fears.<BR><BR>This doesn't mean that Feanor isn't solely responsible for the kinslaying, burning of the ships and ultimately, leading his people to downfall and total ruin.He is.<BR>He was very stubborn. Remember when he dies and sees the peeks of the Thangorodrim? According to the Silmarillion,He has a flash of foresight and knows that the Noldor will never break down the Thangorodrim. Nevertheless, he orders his Sons to stay true to the pact.
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Postby Neithan » Sat Sep 02, 2000 1:35 pm

Feanor I think represented everything fair and wonderful and eveything that plagued the Noldor. He was an incredialby powerful figure. However it was his pride that caused his down fall. He "horded" his jewels refusing to share them. He saw past Meklor's lies and hated him. However he not only did not listen to the Valar he openly defied them and we all see how well that worked out for the Numenor. He was for the most part an ungrateful and spoiled child who needed to be shown a lesson. However I do agree that the lesson came at much to great a cost.
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Postby MasterYoga » Sat Sep 02, 2000 6:45 pm

i do not agree Melkor tricked Feanor. first of all, who was it who first created the sils b/c he coveted the light of the trees? something wrong there from the start...<BR><BR>Melkor simply had to push a button or two and Feanor, with his fiery spirit responded completely predicably.<BR><BR>if Melkor had completely tricked Feanor, he did pay a price for dealing with such an enemy, why would he bring that upon himself?<BR><BR>
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Postby Cranthor » Sat Sep 02, 2000 10:32 pm

I'm sorry i got away from the topic on this but it's not all Feanor's fault. Melkor decieved everybody, not just Feanor. First he tricked the other Valar into believing that he had repented then he tricked them in thinking that the dissension amongst the Noldor was cause solely by Feanor, when in truth he was only partly responisble. The Sil says that Feanor "first spoke openly against them (the Valar), being emminent in self-will and arrogance, though all the Noldor had become proud" Feanor was just the only one that let what he thought be known. So we was falsely accused and humiliated by the Valar for no reason. He did pull a sword on Fingolfin his brother but the Sil also says concerning the two elder sons of Finwe, "but now THEY grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possesions," so again, as before, Feanor got in trouble for simply making known his thoughts. When you think about it Fingolfin would have been more to blame on this because what would Feanor have had to be jealous of Fingolfin? Finwe loved Feanor more, Feanor was better looking, more skillfull, was the elder child, and pretty much had everthing on Fingolfin, so it is likely that Fingolfin was the one putting the pressure of the bit about the rights and possesions and the like. All of this came down on Feanor's shoulder's and the blame was laid solely on him, when it wasn't all his fault. I agree that the Valar should have helped Feanor instead of cursing him. What was Feanor supposed to do? think about it, first you are accused falsely and put into exile. Then you are summoned by these false accusers, made to apologize to your jealous brother and during the summons, your father,whom you love about anything, is slain, and your most prized possesions are taken. It's in this state, "distraught with grief for the slaying of his father, and with anguish from the rape of the Silmarils" that Feanor compelety turns on the Valar. What did they expect him to do? This is when the Valar should have stepped in directly and helped Feanor. But the didn't and things turned out the way the did..<BR><BR>Also, everybody is always saying that when Feanor burned the ships of the Teleri he was leaving the rest of the Noldor to die. He just left them to go back to Valinor in humiliation, they are the ones that chose to follow him, none of the had to. It's not like if they didn't allow him to be humiliated when we was exiled even though it was partly their fault as well.
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Postby Mithfânion » Sun Sep 03, 2000 3:45 am

Masteryoga, just thought I should alert you to a typo in your username <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Morgoth_Bauglir » Sun Sep 03, 2000 11:46 am

Feanor did not envy the light of the trees. He created the Silmarils before ever he listened to the words of Melkor; he expected to live in Aman until the end of the world; that light would be his, to the best of his knowledge, as well as everyone else's there. How could he envy what he already had. He made the Silmarils for the joy of making them, and also (it hints) because he had a feeling that the Trees would not last forever.<BR><BR>But as for the Oath; I have known some people to be misled about it; the Oath is binding only to those who take it. Just because Feanor takes an oath to pursue Morgoth does not mean that he will fulfill it, only that he will try. The Valar hoped that the Teleri would withstand them, or else aid them, or that hte Exiles would find another way; they could not have expected the Kinslaying.<BR><BR>Beyond that......Mitheradan hits the nail on the head, and I feel no need to add to his answer, except that the Valar did not curse the Exiles, per se. Saying that Mandos has the power to put a curse upon the Noldor is like saying a meteorologist can make it rain by predicting rain. He is but a prophet; he says something because it will come true, but it will not come true merely because he says it, if you understand me.
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Postby Dk_Strider » Sun Sep 03, 2000 3:35 pm

He was a Valar, he had the power to make many things happen.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>strider
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Postby Morgoth_Bauglir » Mon Sep 04, 2000 9:32 am

Yes, he had power to make many things happen, but this was not moving rocks or raising mountains. Mandos was talking about the doom of one of the fairest peoples in all the world, and events that would shape the entire world. Just because Mandos can do some things, doesn't mean that he can go back in time and change the Song of the Ainur to allow for the deaths of a lot of Elves, and the Song determines anything so large-scale.<BR><BR>Now, be that as it may, hte more you read the Silm the more you realize that the Valar and Maiar are themselves bound within the Song, such that their actions are doomed to bring about the events in the Song. So it is possible that the Song could have constrained Mandos to doom the Noldor, and thus Mandos is responsible. But if you think about it that way, it's like the old puzzle, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" The Song caused Mandos to do it, but perhaps Mandos sung that part of the Song for all we know? None of this can be proven, and I for one do not believe it.<BR><BR>But we do not know, and can never know. Bottom line is that the Song is responsible to some degree for any such large event with the Elves, and not Mandos.
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Postby Mitheradan » Wed Sep 06, 2000 11:31 am

I just had an interesting thought. The Valar and the Maiar are the Ainur that came to Arda to dwell, but what about the other Ainur that stayed with Illuvatar? Could it be that the song is not done and that they are still singing and adding in new themes? Could it be that as the Doomsayer of the Valar, only Mandos has access to what those new themes may be and how they will affect the future? <BR> <BR>Another possibility in this universe of endless posiibilities.
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Postby Telperion » Thu Sep 07, 2000 2:55 am

Thing is.. Feanor refused to give the Silmarils to Yavanna and the Valar BEFORE he found out that Melkor had killed his dad and stolen them. Things might have been different if he had said yes... even though the Silmarils were already lost. Melkor might have spread the original lies... but everyone in Valinor found out what he had done. Feanor knew that everything was set up by Melkor... he knew that Melkor was working evil to cause stife, but he rebelled anyway. <BR> <BR>And also, Mandos did not change fate... the rebelion of the Noldor was already written down... it's just that Mandos has more access to the original Vision of the history of Ea then the rest of the Valar. Even though Mandos was the chief herald of the Valar and was supposedly speaking their proclamation, he knew already that this was going to happen... or something very similar. <BR> <BR>Fate in Middle-earth is like eddies and currents that pull and push events and people according to the original Plan/Music... but it's not always permanent... especially with Humans...who are made separate from the restrictions of the fate of the Music. <BR> <BR>The Valar, even though they probably knew that most of what they would do in the Universe they themselves had already written in the Music, could not see (except for Mandos) what that future would be. So they could only act in the present...so while they might curse the Noldor/Feanor for rebellion thinking they are independent...it is actually ment to be that they will curse them. But only Mandos knows this...but he never tells the whole truth and never all at once.
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Postby Cranthor » Thu Sep 07, 2000 2:46 pm

I dislike Mandos. He is a punk. He could have avoided a lot.
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Re: Why do the Valar curse Feanor, when he was tricked into

Postby Billobob » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:42 am

The thing is even though Melkor stoked the flames of rebellion Feanor still went along and he had always had the seed of pride all it took for it to get out of hand was a couple of rumors started by Melkor. So over all I think that Feanor deserved to be doomed because while Melkor started it Feanor went with it to the bitter end.
Last edited by Billobob on Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do the Valar curse Feanor, when he was tricked into

Postby Morwenna » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:49 pm

Billobob, did your auto-correct mangle Melkor's name? :)
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Re: Why do the Valar curse Feanor, when he was tricked into

Postby Billobob » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:28 am

Morwenna wrote:Billobob, did your auto-correct mangle Melkor's name? :)


Yeah Ill edit it now
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Re: Why do the Valar curse Feanor, when he was tricked into

Postby Morwenna » Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:15 am

Feanor was responsible for all that grief. He could have used the jewels to rejuvenate the trees; he could have resisted the urge to take vengeance; he could have avoided the kinslaying; all those things he could have done and did not, preferring to nurse his anger. (Nurse it? He fed it into obesity!!) It's not what you have, it's what you do with it. He had a bad situation, yes, but without the pride and selfishness he could have made it a lot better, and averted generations worth of tragedy. That would have been the proper way to resist Melkor.
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Re: Why do the Valar curse Feanor, when he was tricked into

Postby ngaur » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:24 am

Feanor was responsible for all that grief.


Him and all of his sons, and those that followed them.

He could have used the jewels to rejuvenate the trees


He could have intended it, though I think they were stolen before it could have been put in effect. The trees were doomed.

he could have resisted the urge to take vengeance; he could have avoided the kinslaying; all those things he could have done and did not


True, and the kinslaying had nothing to do with Melkor. That was the feanorians own initiative and the deed that more than anything else gained them the wrath of the Valar.
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