Who is your least favourite character?

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Postby TommyB » Tue Dec 05, 2000 10:38 am

Still pretty disappointing though. After Gil-Galad got worked over by Sauron it seemed that most of the elves somehow turned into a heap of pansies. Very disappointing...
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Postby cian » Tue Dec 05, 2000 10:58 am

Hmm, well JRR Tolkien himself described Legolas a 'immensely strong' -- <i>immense</i> is rather a strong choice of words, leaving little doubt.<BR><BR>I see no reason to cast any negative slant on fighting with a bow! Cf also the 'knife-work' at Helm's Deep for proof that Legolas can kill very effectively without one -- in any event.<BR><BR>As for fear, cf. <i>The Passing of the Grey Company:</i><BR> "... and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, ..."<BR>
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Postby TommyB » Tue Dec 05, 2000 11:07 am

Rubbish! Legolas completely shat at the sight of the Balrog. He turned and ran flat out like a lizard drinking.<BR><BR>I don't want to be harsh on him for that, but the elves of old would not have reacted like that. Feanor, Glorfindal, Etchelon (spelling), and many others during the siege of Angband all took on Balrogs. Fingolfin took on Morgoth for Chrissakes. <BR><BR>Gandalf knew Legolas to be a pansie hence the line about the Balrog being a "foe beyond any of you." Were Glorfindal there I think Gandalf would have said "There you are Glor, go be a good elf and kick that Balrogs ass for us!"<BR><BR>Seriously, the elves dipped badly after Gil-Galad went down.
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Postby cian » Tue Dec 05, 2000 11:49 am

Well, that's Tolkien's characterization of his own creation <shrug> <i>immensely strong</i> and very fearless!<BR><BR>Legolas reacted with dismay because he understood what a Balrog was, and what it could do, and in suprise that there simply was one in the hall! Gandalf's instructions to the Company in no way indicates that he thought Legolas a 'pansie', it wasn't even directed to him specifically! Gandalf was the most qualified there to battle it -- keep the Ringbearer safely on his mission no matter the outcome!<BR><BR>After the fall of Gil-galad there were numerically less Noldor in Middle-earth of course, but compare most TA warriors of any race to a reincarnated Noldo of Glorfindel's prestige and you might just come up short. Glorfindel 'empowered' & the power of the FA Amanyar is one thing, but this does not generally detract from Elven prowess as a high standard in itself (just as the Sindar were ~great~ warriors) -- and surely both an Elven-warrior and a Tark were two types of warriors that made any Third Age Uruk think twice!!!
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Postby Mithfânion » Tue Dec 05, 2000 1:06 pm

Tommy<BR><BR>Legolas'reaction was because he was very suprised because the Balrog was there I guess. Secondly, Gandalf's warning was not specifically directed to Legolas, in fact he spoke these words to Aragorn and Boromir who came running in.<BR><BR>Undoubtedly, Legolas would have been crushed by the Balrog, but both this power difference and the frightened Legolas tell us more about the immense Maiar-like power of the Balrog than about Legolas, who in all fairness was quite the warrior.<BR><BR>Compare him to the First Age Noldor like Ecthelion and Glorfindel and yes, he is nothing more than their shadow. But every race has that prblem, it's the decay over the ages that affects all living beings in M-E.
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Postby TommyB » Tue Dec 05, 2000 1:28 pm

Gentlemen, please...<BR><BR>You put forward strong, logical arguments supporting Legolas, whereas my arguments have been more in the form of somewhat mindless ridicule. I'm fully aware of what Legolas achieved in the LOTR. His moderate prowess as a warrior and his deep friendship with Gimli are commendable and show him to be far from the worst character in the books.<BR><BR>But... My disappointment with him cannot be argued against. Sure, he did well enough considering his meagre talents, but I think (as Gil-Galad points out) that he illustrates all too clearly the demise of the elves. The end of the third age brings with it the time of Men. The power of the 3 is gone and the elves depart middle earth forever. Legolas is just another vehicle for making this point. When all is said and done, the elves have become pretty useless compared to their days of their glory. <BR><BR><BR>
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Postby InnocentEvil » Tue Dec 05, 2000 6:39 pm

Up to this point, as the newby, I've been a good girl and not rocked the boat too much. However, on the question of my least favorite character(s) I think I'm going to get stoned by the masses.<BR><BR>I have always mistrusted and strongly disliked Boromir. I didnt' like his attitude at the council in Rivendell. He acted like only he and his people were fighting against the encroaching darkness, amongst other arogant behavior. I always thought he had no respect for the halflings, that he would have cast them aside from the start if given the chance. When his final moment of betrayal comes I want to shove the spear through his heart myself. I don't even care that in the end he acted bravely and may have gained some redemption. My indignation that he would jepoardize the mission for such a selfish and arogant reason makes it well nigh on impossible for me to forgive him. <BR><BR>There's one other character I always find whiney and sniveling, but I won't mention him because the reaction would be even more strong than that I fear will come from my choice of Boromir.<BR><BR>Having said that, I shall go arm myself against the coming onslaught,<BR>Evil
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Postby TheLadyEowyn » Tue Dec 05, 2000 6:44 pm

Don't worry. You're not alone in not liking Boromir. I never really liked him either, yet he's not my least favorite, because I think in the end, he realized his error and redeemed himself.
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Postby Eol_of_Nan_Elmoth » Tue Dec 05, 2000 7:09 pm

Okay, why don't we look at things from Boromir's point of view. Gondor has been struggling against Mordor for years. Sauron just seems to be getting stronger, Osgiliath is lost to his forces, and basically things are going very bad. The last bastion of ancient Numenor is in grave danger of falling. Then Boromir finds out about the ring. Boromir knows the danger Gondor is in, and here is an object that will throw down Sauron, and make Gondor even more glorious than Numenor ever was. And what is to be done with it? It has been entrusted to a little 3 foot high person with no experience in the wild to destroy. But the fact it is being destroyed is not the worst part. It is going to be taken right into Mordor. Into the realm of the one person you do NOT want to get their hands on it. Boromir realises the danger, and to save Gondor and stop Sauron getting the Ring he tries to take it. And I honestly can't really blame him for doing that.
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Postby Mithfânion » Wed Dec 06, 2000 1:46 am

Innocent evil(well hardly <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> )<BR><BR>tell me what that other person is
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Postby Lilystar » Wed Dec 06, 2000 2:03 am

My least favorite carachter is Saruman. He feeds human flesh to orcs, does a lot of weird breeding stuff, and lies to everyone. He has no honor.<BR>And even after he has been defeated, he cant just retire in peace, he has to go and do a lot of nasty things to the shire too.<BR>big jerk<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0>
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Postby Iman » Wed Dec 06, 2000 7:20 am

Oh dear Tommy B!<BR>Legolas was one of my favourite characters! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby TommyB » Wed Dec 06, 2000 8:04 am

Iman, Legolas was a big wussy!!! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby TheLadyEowyn » Wed Dec 06, 2000 8:04 am

I adore Legolas also!
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Postby Belegûr » Wed Dec 06, 2000 8:15 am

InnocentEvil: I want to know who the other one is!!! Frodo??? <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif"border=0>
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Postby TommyB » Wed Dec 06, 2000 8:16 am

Bah, you girls always go for the good looking elven princes.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby TheLadyEowyn » Wed Dec 06, 2000 8:25 am

I also adore Gimli too. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> But seriously, what about Legolas made him a wussy? It surely couldn't be his performance at The Paths of the Dead, Fangorn Forest, the battle of Helm's Deep or the Battle of Pelennor Fields. He wasn't all too thrilled with Moria, but look at poor Gimli in the Paths of the Dead, man he was completely frightened. I'm just curious to see why you think he is a wuss.
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Postby TommyB » Wed Dec 06, 2000 8:42 am

OK, let's start the "I love Legolas" fan club. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>This thread is about least favourite characters. I've expressed my disappointment in Legolas' bravery and fighting prowess as compared to the Elven Princes of the First Age in several different posts. No further comment is required in this matter. It started out being somewhat lighthearted and as I'm sure no one else could possibly agree with me, that's the last you'll all hear about it.<BR><BR>As for Gimli, he was one of my favourite characters. Cleaving orcs, threatening to dent Gandalf's hat. Gimli was cool. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> <BR>
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Postby cian » Wed Dec 06, 2000 9:30 am

And here's Tolkien's fuller description for the Legolas fans <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>"He was tall as a young tree, lithe, <i>immensely strong,</i> able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgûl, endowed with the <i>tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies</i>, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship." <BR><BR>I may have added some italic emphasis o me own <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby TommyB » Wed Dec 06, 2000 9:43 am

I think Tolkien was getting delirious on some strong tea when he wrote that. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Wonder why he didn't mention the "crapping of the pants at the sight of a Balrog" incident.<BR><BR>Seriously, I don't give a damn about these letters etc. I'm judging the evidence in the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion and I find Legolas sorely lacking in ticker and a pansy compared to his ancestors! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby cian » Wed Dec 06, 2000 10:20 am

The LotR evidence speaks to his un-fear rather <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> cf the Paths of the Dead for a specific ref. Heck, give the average Gondorian a knife to work with on Helms Deep and see how he fares <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> those Orcs pro'lly never saw what hit them half the time!
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Postby Mithfânion » Wed Dec 06, 2000 11:01 am

Tommy B<BR><BR>When you say you don't give a damn about Letters etc., that immediately tells us that you have a VERY narrow perceptive and are only willing to accept those facts that fit into your beliefs. <BR><BR>Letters gives great insight into what Tolkien himself thought about the characters. Since he is the creator of this world, I think his opinion is very canon don't you think. Therefore, NO ONE can discard Letters, whether or not you agree or disagree with the Prof.<BR><BR>
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Postby InnocentEvil » Wed Dec 06, 2000 1:43 pm

I know that every individual has his own motivations for why they do what they do. We're having a discussion about who we dislike in the LoTR and I picked Boromir. It's an opinion; you do not have to agree with it, and I'm certainly not lobbying to have him picked as Worst Tolkien Character of All Time. I understand that others will disagree with my choice and that I'll disagree with their's. I'm willing to accept each person's opinion for exactly what it is: personal preference.<BR>Tommy, I take exception the the "You girls always go for the Elves" thing. This lady, and I use that term loosely, because several of my friends would wet themselves laughing to hear me call myself a lady, prefers the company of Dwarves and possibly Hobbits if we're talking about good creatures.. oh.. and Beorn... Rowl!!<BR>As for the second character I can't stand; Belegur and Gil-Galad, you may email me if you're desperate to know, but I won't post it on the board. Judging from the reaction the Boromir's place here, I won't risk it (laughing quietly). The email on my profile is one I check daily.<BR>Just gotta say, I'm LOVING this message board, y'all are a kick!<BR>Evil Herself
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Postby Mithfânion » Wed Dec 06, 2000 1:47 pm

Evil Herself?<BR><BR>That's just too tempting <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Be prepared to be mailed
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Postby InnocentEvil » Wed Dec 06, 2000 1:58 pm

I would never have offered if I wasn't prepared to accept. Happy to talk to you about it, Gil-Galad<BR>Evil One
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Postby Gandalf_Grey-Storm » Wed Dec 06, 2000 5:45 pm

my least forite characters has to definitely be all the Sackville-Baggins's. they are so greedy all they care about is getting bilbo's house and treasure to bad gandalf didn't just make them into a doorknow or something.
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Postby TommyB » Wed Dec 06, 2000 5:52 pm

Come off it Gil-Galad, the books are THE canon. The books are Middle Earth. Of course Tolkien's opinions count, it's his world, but the opinions we form about his world and the characters in it come from the books. They don't come from having tea with the good Professor discussing his opinions.<BR><BR>If he wanted to show Legolas as "immensely strong" or "fearless" he could have done so in the books, not written about it in a letter years later. That is the point I was trying to make regarding the letters. What is in the books cannot be gainsaid by any letter. The books are higher level canon than letters!<BR><BR>This does not indicate narrow perception on my part, nor does it show that I'm refusing to accept what doesn't fit into "my sets of beliefs." My beliefs have nothing to do with this, I've only expressed opinions here, light-heartedly in the main. It seems some people are too ignorant to recognise what is said "tounge in cheek," and too craven to express any opinion they fear they might get flamed for.<BR><BR>And Cian, OK, OK, Legolas was a fairly handy guy to have around in a fight. He's an Elven Prince after all, he's got to be good for something! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby Cranthor » Wed Dec 06, 2000 6:02 pm

My least favorite character is Galadriel. She sat around during all three ages and did a whole lot of nothing. Where was she when all the great battles of the first age were happening? Sitting under the Girdle of Melian. The only time you hear her name mentioned in doing anything is when she is struggling with Sauron, and that's from afar with Celebrimbor's ring. Where was she when Cirdan, Elrond, Gil-Galad, and all the others went to battle Sauron? Or when the people of Earandil were attacked? Or even during the sack of Doriath where she herself lived? For someone blessed with so many great gifts she sure was disappointing.
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Postby InnocentEvil » Wed Dec 06, 2000 6:13 pm

Craven: very cowardly, abjectly afraid, a thorough coward. <BR>Webster's New World Dictionary<BR><BR>Hmm.. well THAT was painful<BR><BR>I chose not to post something because I'm new and I dont know everybody. I wanted to test the waters; get to know people before I began starting or ending fights. I've been banned from another private message board where the members simply didn't like my politely worded, respectful opinion. Pardon me for being cautious, not cowardly.<BR><BR>I dont like name calling. I won't do it on this board or anywhere. I'll read your 'tongue in cheek' opinion and probably giggle, even if I disagree. I won't lash out at people I dont know and who aren't involved in my dispute to satisfy my anger. Please try to do the same for me.<BR><BR>Evil<BR>
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Postby Denethor » Wed Dec 06, 2000 6:13 pm

To be fair on Galadriel- she certainly got enough punishment (look at the wally she was married to!)
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