Annotation Project, a new chapter: Council of Elrond

Discuss Tolkien's masterpieces within the walls of this forum.

Postby MithLuin » Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:28 pm

Question - when does Frodo refer to the Ring as Precious (before the Council)? I am not trying to gainsay you, Roac, I just honestly don't remember.
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby roaccarcsson » Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:39 pm

It's internal monologue, not spoken, after Gandalf challenges him to destroy the Ring: <em>The gold looked very fair and pure, and Frodo thought how rich and beautiful was its colour, how perfect was its roundness. It was an admirable thing and altogether precious.</em>
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby roaccarcsson » Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:49 pm

<strong>It was Radagast the Brown, who at one time dwelt in Rhosgobel, near the borders of Mirkwood.</strong><BR><BR>Radagast is mentioned in <em>The Hobbit,</em> in the chapter "Queer Lodgings," when Gandalf introduces himself to Beorn: <em>"I am a wizard," continued Gandalf. "I have heard of you, if you have not heard of me, but perhaps you have heard of my good cousin Radagast who lives near the southern borders of Mirkwood?"</em><BR><BR>Accounts of pre-Christian Slavic mythology refer to a god named Radegast or Radigost, after whom a Czech brand of beer is named. David Salo, the noted scholar of Tolkien's languages, believes that the similarity of names is probably a concidence:<BR><BR><a href='http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/messages/Vol19/19.11' target=_blank>http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/messages/Vol19/19.11</a>
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby roaccarcsson » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:54 pm

Bumping this up, to bring to everyone's attention that I have started editing the contributions in together. (If I haven't gotten to yours yet, be patient - though there are a few that I think really belong in other chapters.)<BR><BR>(BTW, I don't think we've exhausted this yet, not nearly.)
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby MithLuin » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:10 am

Minor point, <strong>roac</strong>:<BR><em>The linguist Helge Fauskanger, on his "Ardalambion" website, analyses this verse as follows:</em><BR><BR>I didn't take Fauskanger's translation exactly. The meaning of <em>-ûk</em> I took from Alexandre Nemirovsky, also presented on Fauskanger's website. Since the book uses the word "all" in the translation, Fauskanger translates <em>-ûk</em> as an ending meaning "all," which would be unusual. The other guy, an historian familiar with the languages of the Hittites and Hurrians, suggested that it might be a verb ending suggesting that the action is full or complete, as seen in those languages. That's why I credited the site <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>. You may credit it however you like, I just wanted to make you aware of this subtle difference. <BR><BR>Also, would you prefer we not imbed web links, to make it easier for you to copy them?
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby roaccarcsson » Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:09 pm

Yes, Mith. Thanks. I am going to do a post requesting that links be naked URLs.<BR><BR>I will make the edit to your post about the Ring verse.
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby Queen_Beruthiel » Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:18 pm

<strong>The Nine the Nazgul keep.</strong><BR><BR>But in <em>Letters</em>:<BR><BR><strong>"...their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills."</strong><BR><BR><em>Letter 246</em>
User avatar
Queen_Beruthiel
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 2921
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2002 12:28 pm
Top

Postby roaccarcsson » Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:14 pm

We could use a linguist here, to chip in some Elvish etymologies: E.g., Erestor, Galdor, Iarwain Ben-Adar.
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby roaccarcsson » Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:21 pm

[Note under construction, for insertion in the Many Meetings" chapter when we get to it]<BR><BR><strong>Earendil was a mariner</strong><BR><BR>"Earendil" is an Old English name for the morning star. IT is the point of origin of Tolkien's entire mythology, as he related in Letter 297:<BR><BR><OL><em>The most important name in this connection is <strong>Earendil</strong>. This name is in fact (as is obvious) derived from A-S <strong>earendel</strong>.</em></OL><BR><BR>* * *<BR><BR><em><OL>To my mind the A-S uses seem plainly to indicate that it was a star presaging the dawn (at any rate in English tradition): that is what we now call Venus: the morning-star as it may be seen shining brilliantly in the dawn, before the actual rising of the Sun. That is at any rate how I took it. Before 1914 I wrote a "poem" upon Earendel who launched his ship like a bright spark from the havens of the Sun. I adopted him into my mythology - in which he became a prime figure as a mariner, and eventually as a herald star, and a sign of hope to men.</em></OL><BR><BR>The line:<BR><BR>"Hail Earendel, brightest of angels, over Middle Earth sent to men."<BR><BR>comes from the A-S poem Crist. Here it is in OE:<BR><BR><em>eala! earendel engla beorhtast ofer middangeard monnum sended.</em><BR><BR>The star-name <em>Earendil</em> evidently derives from an obscure Germanic myth, found only in Snorri Sturluson's <em>Prose Edda</em>, in an account of how Thor called for help to remove a whetstone that had become stuck in his head:<BR><BR><em>Then there arrived a sorceress named Groa, wife of Aurvandil the Bold. She chanted her spells over Thor until the whetstone began to come loose. . . . He told her these tidings that he had waded south across Elivagr carrying Aurvandil in a basket on his back south from Giantland, and there was the proof, that one of his toes had been sticking out of the basket and had got frozen, so Thor broke it off and threw it up in the sky and made out of it the star called Aurvandil's toe.</em><BR><BR>Trans. by Anthony Faulkes, Everyman ed. (paperback, London, 1987), pp. 79-80.<BR><BR>A similar name recurs in the twelfth-century legendary chronicle <em>Gesta Danorum</em> ("The Deeds, or History, of the Danes" ) by the writer known as Saxo Grammaticus:<BR><BR><em>Horwendil, King of Denmark, married Gurutha, the daughter of Rorik, and she bore him a son, whom they named Amleth. Horwendil's good fortune stung his brother Feng with jealousy, so that the latter resolved treacherously to waylay his brother, thus showing that goodness is not safe even from those of a man's own house. And behold when a chance came to murder him, his bloody hand sated the deadly passion of his soul.</em><BR><BR>The full translation of the story is found here: <BR><a href='http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/amleth.html' target=_blank><BR><BR>http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/amleth.html</a><BR><BR>It is universally accepted that this is the source - by way of a lost play by another author - of Shaekspere's <em>Hamlet</em>. In a sense, therefore, Hamlet and Elrond are brothers!
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby MithLuin » Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:39 pm

thief-such was his word
The messenger from Sauron has gotten his information about the hobbits from Gollum. Gollum repeatedly refers to Bilbo Baggins as a "thief." (see Prologue 4: Of the Finding of the Ring) Bilbo was also "hired" by the dwarves as a burglar, so this name is (accidentally) appropriate. In reality, Bilbo did not steal the Ring from Gollum.

EDIT: And he asked urgently concernning hobbits, of what kind they were, and where they dwelt.

We know that Sauron learned the words Baggins and Shire from Gollum. Radagast reported that the Black Riders were asking for the Shire, and Farmer Maggot reported that they were asking for Baggins. Apparently, he also learned the word hobbits, as Gandalf had warned Frodo ["I believe that hitherto - hitherto, mark you - he has entirely overlooked the existence of hobbits"]. Gollum's information came from his conversations with Bilbo as well as his spying in Laketown. Though Gollum doubtless knew that the Shire was somewhere in the West, the messenger was looking for some more detailed directions.
Last edited by MithLuin on Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby MithLuin » Sun Mar 14, 2004 8:46 pm

We need some language annotations!<BR>I am no expert, but I poked around on Ardalambion, and here are my (scant) preliminary findings.<BR><BR><strong>Erestor</strong> ?-lord(?)<BR><strong>Galdor</strong> 'light-lord' or 'mighty light'<BR>Also the name of the father of Hurin and Huor, son of the man Hador Glorindol.<BR><em>gal</em> 'light' see 'Gil-galad'<BR><em>dor</em> is the lenited form of <em>taur</em> <TUR 'mighty, vast, high, sublime' or <em>taur</em> <TAR '(legitimate) king, lord'<BR>Here ‘t’ mutates to ‘d’ and the diphthong ‘au’ contracts to ‘o’ in words with more than one syllable.<BR>Annotation provided by: <strong>Breogán</strong>, from the Language Forum<BR><BR>See the note on 'Gildor' <BR><em>"The uninformed have sometimes assumed that a name like <strong>Gildor</strong> means "Star-land", sc. that the final element is the same as in country-names like Gondor, Mordor etc., but "Star-land" does seem like a strange name for a person. The final element of Gildor is actually <em>taur</em> "king, master", blended with an identical adjective meaning "lofty, noble". In <strong>Gildor</strong>, <em>t</em> becomes <em>d</em> by lenition, and unaccented <em>au</em> becomes </em>o</em>. The name is better interpreted "Star-lord"."<BR>source: Ardalambion <a href='http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm#nasal' target=_blank>http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm#nasal</a></em><BR><I'll move this to the right thread when it opens><BR><BR><strong>Cirdan the Shipwright</strong> see below<BR><strong>Legolas</strong> - done<BR><strong>Thranduil</strong><BR><BR><strong>Boromir</strong><BR><em>bór</em> "trusty man" Sindarin <em>mîr</em> "jewel" Sindarin<BR>I thought <em>bor</em> meant 'war' and <strong>Boromir</strong> meant 'war-jewel', but I need to find a reference for that.<BR><BR><strong>Eregion</strong> see below<BR><strong>Celebrimbor</strong> see below<BR>Gwaith-i-Mírdain "People of the Jewel-Smiths"<BR><a href='http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm#nasal' target=_blank>http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm#nasal</a><BR><BR><strong>Iarwain Ben-adar</strong><BR><em>Oldest, Fatherless</em><BR>"It so happens that we may also have the superlative form of iaur "old"; during the Council of Elrond, the Sindarin name of Tom Bombadil was given as Iarwain, meaning "Eldest". The ending -wain would seem to be the superlative suffix. Why not *Iorwain, with the normal monophthongization au > o? (David Salo answers, "Because you are looking at the direct descendant of a form like *Yarwanya (perhaps, I am not sure of the exact form of the final element) in which the vowel was in a closed syllable." I don't feel much wiser, but then I am not so deep into Eldarin phonology as David is.)"<BR><a href='http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm#Heading16' target=_blank>http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm#Heading16</a><BR><BR>Any help here would be appreciated!<BR><BR>Edit: Thanks, <strong>Eluchil</strong>!
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby scirocco » Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:24 pm

I thought we were going to keep references to the chapter in which they first appear (not that I think that's necessarily the best idea.) Earendil is first mentioned (briefly) three chapters back by Aragorn in <em>A Knife In the Dark</em>, but for my money, the place to put the discussion of his name would have been in the previous chapter to this one <em>(Many Meetings)</em> with the <em>Lay of Earendil</em>.<BR><BR>However, if we're off on the Earendil trail, we could append the following to <strong>roaccarcsson's</strong> discussion of the older myths:<BR><BR>"While Tolkien knew of the <em>Aurvandil / Horwendil</em> myths, he does make it clear (in Letter 297) that the direct source of Earendil's name and "astronomical" motif in LOTR is the Old English poem <em>Crist</em> by the eighth century poet Cynewulf:<OL><BR>Éala Éarendel engla beorhtast<BR>ofer middongeard monnum sended...<BR><BR>(Hail Earendel, brightest of angels,<BR>above the middle-earth sent unto men!)</OL><BR>The Anglo-Saxon usages of <em>Earendil</em> add the concept of Venus, the Morning Star, presaging the dawn, to the older myths. In 1914, Tolkien wrote a poem based on the <em>Crist</em> verses, <em>The Last Voyage of Earendel</em>. (Christopher Tolkien believes this poem to have been the "first of the mythology" ). The character Earendel forms an important part of <em>The Silmarillion</em>, as a mariner, a figure of hope to Men <em>(a distant flame before the Sun)</em>, and the father of Elrond.<BR><BR>Tolkien explains the Quenya (Elvish) meaning of Earendil as "Sea-lover" in the same Letter, glossing the elements as "(a) the C.E. stem *AYAR 'Sea' , primarily applied to the Great Sea of the West, lying between Middle-earth, and Aman the Blessed Realm of the Valar; and (b) the element, or verbal base (N)DIL, 'to love, be devoted to'."
User avatar
scirocco
Ranger of the North
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 6:12 am
Top

Postby roaccarcsson » Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:10 am

As noted, the Earendil note is "under construction." The material in my post is meant to be appended to a discussion of the OE poem, which is certainly of greater significance.<BR><BR>At this point, I think I agree with Scirocco that the place for a discussion of Earendil's literary antecedents is with Bilbo's poem. (That will be a long long note, as the descent of the poem from "errantry" also needs to be set out.)<BR><BR>I think though that the present chapter is an appropriate spot for a discussion of Earendil's <strong>descendants</strong> pegged to Elrond's "Earendil was my sire."
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby MithLuin » Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:48 pm

I got an error while trying to edit my post on page 1, so I'll just repost the relevant annotation here. Sorry about that!<BR><BR><strong>Earendil was my sire, who was born in Gondolin before its fall; and my mother was Elwing, daughter of Dior, son of Luthien of Doriath.</strong><BR><BR>See the second page of Appendix A. <BR><BR>Earendil – see other note already written <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> [actually, though, shouldn’t the main Earendil note show up when Bilbo sings his song in <em>Many Meetings</em>?]<BR><BR> - Gondolin – <BR>Also called "the Hidden City," Gondolin was built by Turgon ('Stone-lord'???), the second son of Fingolfin, a prince of the Noldor, in the Encircling Mountains ('Echoriath'). The men Huor, Hurin and Tuor, and the elves Eol and Maeglin, were the only outsiders to enter Turgon’s realm while it endured. Earendil was the son of Tuor and Idril Celebrindal ('Silver-foot'), Turgon’s only child. Morgoth, the first Dark Lord, discovered the location of Gondolin by treachery, and sacked the city. Turgon and many of the people perished, though Idril, Tuor and their young son Earendil escaped. The story of the founding of Gondolin is told at the beginning of Chapter 15: 'Of the Noldor in Beleriand' in <em>the Silmarillion</em>. The story of the Fall of Gondolin is told in Chapter 23 of <em>The Silmarillion</em>; a more detailed version from 1920 is published in <em>HoME II: The Book of Lost Tales 2</em>. <BR><BR>Bilbo's sword Sting and Gandalf's sword Glamdring come from Gondolin. <BR><BR><em>etymology of Gondolin? Does it mean "City of Singing Stone?" or is that one of its other names...Oh, yeah, and we should have a list of all the names of the city with their meaning.</em> <BR>Gondolin is the Sindarin form of the Quenya <strong>Ondolindë</strong>, meaning "Stone-song." source: Ardalambion: entry "stone" <a href='http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/eng-quen.rtf' target=_blank>http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/eng-quen.rtf</a> <BR>But also in the Index of <em>the Silmarillion</em>; the text of <em>the Silmarillion</em> translates <strong>Ondolindë</strong> as 'The Rock of the Music of Water' <BR>Both the text and the Index of the <em>Silmarillion</em> translate <strong>Gondolin</strong> as 'The Hidden Rock'.<BR><BR> - Dior, son of Luthien of Doriath – <BR>Doriath ('The Land of the Fence') was a guarded woodland realm of the Sindar (Grey Elves) ruled by Elu Thingol and his wife Melian the Maia. Their only child was Luthien, who married the mortal Beren and "died indeed," or became mortal. Dior, son of Beren and Luthien, was thus Thingol’s heir ('Eluchil'). His wife Nimloth ('White Blossom') was an elf of Doriath, though he lived in Ossiriand prior to the death of Thingol. Dior and Nimloth had one daughter, Elwing ('Star-spray')and two sons, Elured ('Heir of Thingol(Elu)') and Elurin ('Rememberence of Thingol'). Doriath also was eventually destroyed, before the fall of Gondolin; Nimloth and Dior were slain, and Elured and Elurin were lost. Elwing escaped from Doriath, and met the refugees from Gondolin. Elwing and Earendil had two sons, Elros ('Star-foam') and Elrond. <BR>The end of Chapter 10 of <em>The Silmarillion</em>: 'Of the Sindar' tells of the beginning of Doriath. Chapter 22: 'Of the Ruin of Doriath' tells the full tale of Dior and the destruction of the Hidden Kingdom. Translations of names are taken from the Index of <em>the Silmarillion</em>.<BR><BR>This inter-marrying of Men and Elves is actually highly unusual, so Elrond has a unique family tree. Only four known elf-human marriages occured; only two were during the First Age: Beren and Luthien, and Tuor and Idril. Note that Elrond refers only to his Elvish ancestors in this example, and does not mention the Men (Beren and Tuor). <BR><BR>For more information on Beren and Luthien, see the note in <em>A Knife in the Dark</em>. (hey, I’m sure we’ll write a long one!)
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby Eluchil » Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:55 pm

<strong>Earendil was my sire, who was born in Gondolin before its fall; and my mother was Elwing, daughter of Dior, son of Luthien of Doriath</strong><BR><BR>Earendil was the son of the Man Tuor and Elf princess Idril Celebrindal. He was seven years old at the Fall of Gondolin (see Sil. ch 23). Luthien (another Elf princess) was the wife of the Man Beren so Dior and thus Elwing were also of mixed blood (see Sil ch. 19 and Aragorn's story in 'A Knife in the Dark'). The story of Earendil himself and the breaking of Thangorodrim in Silmarillion ch. 24. <BR><BR><strong>we spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor</strong><BR><BR>Denethor's full title, of course, is Steward of the King. His name, like several born by Gondarians is taken from the lagendary histories of the First Age (ie the <em>Silmarillion</em>). Denethor was the name of the King of the Nandorian elves of Ossiriand and was slain in the First Battle of Beleriand (Silmarillion 88-90). Tolkien translated the name as "lithe and lank" (WJ:412)<BR><BR>Minas Tirith ("Tower of the Guard"<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> is also an ancient name reapplied. In the First Age it was given to the watch tower of Finrod Felagund in the river Sirion, which was after taken by Sauron and used as a fortress of werewolves (Sil. 114,152).<BR><BR>The name Boromir is borrowed from an obscure ancestor of Beren (Sil. 144)<BR><BR><strong>Little do I resemble the figures of Elendil and Isildur as they stand carven in their majesty in the halls of Denethor.</strong><BR><BR>These are described by Tolkien in the chapter Minas Tirith as <strong>a silent company of tall images graven in cold stone.</strong><BR><BR><strong>'But I will tell the true story, and if some have heard it otherwise' - he looked sidelong at Gloin - 'I ask hem to forget it and forgive me.'</strong><BR><BR>This is explained in section 4 of the Prologue and refered to in 'A Shadow of the Past' as well. It should be noted that the false story is actualy the text of the first edition of <em>The Hobbit</em> which was altered by Tolkien in preparation for <em>The Lord of the Rings</em>. (See Douglas Anderson <em>The Annotated Hobbit</em> pp. 90, 325-326)<BR><BR><strong>He that breaks a thing to find out wat it is has left the path of wisdom</strong><BR>In the drafts of this passage Gandalf says, "For white may be blended of many colours but many colours are not white." (TI:133)<BR><BR><strong>But such falls and betrayals, alas, have happened before.</strong><BR><BR>Notably in the case of history Elrond knew well Gorlim the Unhappy who betrayed Barahir the father of Beren and Maeglin who betrayed Gondolin to Morgoth (Sil. 159, 240). <BR><BR><strong>Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, Oldest and Fatherless</strong><BR><BR>For an alternate veiw of Iarwin see(<a href='http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/642' target=_blank>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/642</a>). Ben-Adar is uncontroversially 'lacking a father' (from Sindarin <em>pen</em> mutated <em>ben</em> 'lacking, without' and <em>adar</em> father) and so 'fatherless'.<BR><BR>[Edit to discuss etymolygies]<BR><BR>Gondolin is a primordial (c. 1914) name and meant "Hidden Rock" in the Gnomish lanuage as Tolkien imagined it at that time. Later Gnomish became transformed into Sindarin and the origin of the name became more complicated. It becomes the Sindarinization of the original Quenya <em>Ondolinde</em> "Sing Rock", but the form is influenced by the folk etymolyg <em>gond dolen</em> "Hidden Rock", otherwise the correct Sindarin would have been <em>Gonglin</em>. <BR><BR>I mentioned Denethor and Minas Tirith up above. Imladris of course means Rivendell ie "Cloven valley". Legolas is Greenleaf (or according to Letters "Green foliage" ). <BR><BR>Galdor might be "Light Lord". Just a guess.<BR><BR>Cirdan means "shipwright".<BR>Celebrimbor means "Silver fist".<BR>Eregion means 'Hollin' ie "the land of Holly". If you want a source all three of these are mentioned in the Silmarillion index.
User avatar
Eluchil
Mariner
 
Posts: 6151
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 8:47 pm
Top

Postby -Rómestámo- » Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:04 pm

<strong>Sam sat down, blushing and muttering. `A nice pickle we have landed ourselves in, Mr. Frodo!' he said, shaking his head.</strong><BR><BR>This line has been inadvertently omitted from the large format hardcover three volume edition (illustrated by Alan Lee) published by Houghton Mifflin Co. in 2002. <a href='http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/061826051X/ref%3Dnosim/mikestolkienreso/103-3738555-6071834' target=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/061826051X/ref%3Dnosim/mikestolkienreso/103-3738555-6071834</a>
User avatar
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:54 am
Top

Postby MithLuin » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:45 pm

<BR>These threads are getting harder to find! Where's that Index thread?<BR><BR>Anyway:<BR><BR>More about the name <strong>Galdor</strong><BR><BR>Ruth S. Noel says that Galdor = Shining Lord<BR>That doesn't really matter, since her work is generally considered not to be any more scholarly than posters' here. But "gal" is from the root "kal", which is "shine" in the etymologies. Galdor's name is mentioned in that entry...I should probably add it here. So, yeah, light-lord, or shining lord - the same sort of thing. <BR><BR>But anyway, I am just writing this because Noel also says that "Galdor" is OE for "enchantment". Is she right? Can anyone else confirm that?
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby Eluchil » Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:26 pm

I do believe that she is correcton that score. roac or someone with an AS disctionary can confirm but CJRT mentions <em>galdor</em> as a root behind thename Stángaldorbug which JRRT used as an Anglo-Saxon equivalent for Gondolin and Nargothrond in HoME V (it recently made an apperence in ME trivia).
User avatar
Eluchil
Mariner
 
Posts: 6151
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 8:47 pm
Top

Postby roaccarcsson » Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:28 pm

Eluchil is right about the meaning of <em>galdor</em> in OE. Here is what I said on the subject:<BR><BR>"It is presumably a concidence that <em>galdor</em> in Old English means "sorcery" or "enchantment." The dative singular form of the word appears in line 3052 of Beowulf: <em>iumonna gold galdre bewunden</em>, literally "of-ancient-men gold with-enchantment wound-about." This phrase, referring to a dragon's hoard, was used by Tolkien as the title of a poem first published in a magazine 1923, and later collected in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil."<BR><BR>This is tagged onto a longer annotation on the name "Galdor" in which I have combined various people's contributions. (I see I missed Eluchil's HoME cite - I'll go back and stick it in when I get time.<BR><BR>Note that we have outgrown the first post on this one.
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby Luinnenion » Sat Apr 10, 2004 12:01 am

A little late to the party, but I think I may add something of interest. Radagast's name, like Saruman's and Beorn's, is of Old English origin. "rada-" is, I believe, almost certainly from Old English <em>rædda</em>, 'robin'. "-gast" is a little more complicated. An interesting possibility is that it comes from OE <em>gást</em> which includes among its meanings 'soul', 'spirit', and 'angel'. This would fit very well with Tolkien's concept of the Istari as angels. However, I don't know if Tolkien had intended this particular origin of the wizards when he introduced Gandalf and Radagast in the Hobbit. If not, it's likely that "-gast" is simply OE <em>gast</em>, <em>giest</em>, meaning "guest". These definitions may be found in the Clark Hall <em>Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary</em>.<BR><BR>(Note: the 'æ' in <em>rædda</em> should be long, but I'm having difficulty encoding that particular character.)
User avatar
Luinnenion
Ranger of the North
 
Posts: 1553
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 1:12 am
Top

Postby Gil-Estel » Sun Apr 11, 2004 5:58 pm

I'm not exactly certain how the bits of info in the annotation are to be brought together cohesively so I shall just add what I have to offer on this chapter and let someone younger and less techno-challenged explain it.<BR><BR><strong>Galdor</strong> - in OE has the following five meanings <em>sound, song, incantation, spell, and enchantment</em>. <BR><BR><strong>orthanc</strong> in OE has the following meanings: <em>intelligence, understanding mind: cleverness, skill: skilful work, mechanical art</em> when used as a noun. As an adjective <em>ingenious, skilful</em><BR><BR>I have a very good Anglo-Saxon dictionary; feel free to ask about any words and I will check them. (Yes, and I'm a dinosaur: there are probably online sources also <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> )
User avatar
Gil-Estel
Rider of the Mark
 
Posts: 609
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 7:42 pm
Location: Vingilot
Top

Postby MithLuin » Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:04 pm

Updated annotation:<BR><BR><strong>a hundred and ten days I have journeyed all alone</strong><BR>Boromir set out from Minas Tirith on July 4, 3018. (App. B: Tale of Years)<BR>He gives more details of this journey to Celeborn when the company departs Lothlorien. See p. ***
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby Queen_Beruthiel » Tue Apr 13, 2004 3:07 pm

A bit more backstory as regards Boromir's journey is given in UT. While the Nazgul are on their back from searching the area around the Gladden Fields they receive news of Sauron which:<BR><BR><strong>...filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay. For Sauron had now learned of the words of prophecy heard in Gondor, and the going forth of Boromir, of Saruman's deeds and the capture of Gandalf.</strong><BR><BR><strong>The Hunt for the Ring, UT</strong>
User avatar
Queen_Beruthiel
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 2921
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2002 12:28 pm
Top

Postby MithLuin » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:29 pm

<strong>the keepers of the gate</strong><BR><BR>Clearly, these gatekeepers were men, not orcs or half-orcs. Gandalf would never have entered Isengard, otherwise. This is confirmed by Merry and Pippin in 'Flotsam and Jetsam'.
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby roaccarcsson » Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:37 pm

OK, I have bitten the bullet and reformatted to BBCode. I have also folded in some of the material that was pending, and also some new stuff on my own. I will continue to work on it as I have time.

Still waiting for somebody to talk about the Breaking of Thangorodrim, etc.
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby MithLuin » Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:48 pm

I editted my post of March 15th. I'm not really sure why, when I could have just posted this as its own entry....

And he asked urgently concernning hobbits, of what kind they were, and where they dwelt.

We know that Sauron learned the words Baggins and Shire from Gollum. Radagast reported that the Black Riders were asking for the Shire, and Farmer Maggot reported that they were asking for Baggins. Apparently, he also learned the word hobbits, as Gandalf had warned Frodo ["I believe that hitherto - hitherto, mark you - he has entirely overlooked the existence of hobbits"]. Gollum's information came from his conversations with Bilbo as well as his spying in Laketown. Though Gollum doubtless knew that the Shire was somewhere in the West, the messenger was looking for some more detailed directions.
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby Mahima » Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:15 am

The Nine the Nazgul keep.

Around 2 and a half years after Tolkien started working on Lord of the Rings, he decides on the history of the Rings. So far, the number of Rings had been more or less clear, but Tolkien had not decided who had made them. The earliest draft of "Council of Elrond", still has all the Rings of Power made by Sauron; therefor the Three cannot be used, since they are evil in origin.
Tolkien explores ideas of the rings having been made by Fëanor and stolen by Morgoth, like the Silmarils, or all the rings being made by Sauron in the First or Second Age. When Tolkien reached the stage at which Frodo sees Nenya, he made up his mind to the Status quo we know right now.

This information is taken from a paper, "The Lord of the Rings: Genesis", which is in turn based upon Vol. 6-9 of HoME. Weirdly, Author's name not mentioned in the paper
User avatar
Mahima
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 3532
Joined: Thu May 02, 2002 10:04 pm
Top

Postby -Rómestámo- » Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:40 pm

There was a younger dwarf at Glóin's side: his son Gimli.

Gimli was born in T.A. 2879. At the time of the Council of Elrond, this made him 139 years of age.

Within Middle-earth, Gimli may mean 'star', as "gimli = star" in Adûnaic (Sauron Defeated), and that that presumably led David Salo to speculate for the movies that "gimli = star" in Khuzdul, since Khuzdul was a major influence on Adûnaic.

However Tolkien discusses the meaning of 'Gimli' in Letter 297, (1967).
As stated in the Appendices the 'outer' public names of the northern Dwarves were derived from the language of men in the far north not from that variety represented by A.S. [Anglo-saxon], and in consequence are given Scandinavian shape, as rough equivalents of the kinship and divergence of the contemporary dialects. A-S will have nothing to say about Gimli. Actually the poetic word gim in archaic O.N. [Old Norse] verse is probably not related to gimm (an early loan < Latin gemma) 'gem', though possibly it was later associated with it: its meaning seems to have been 'fire'.

So Gimli is a Old Norse 'translation' of the 'actual' Outer name in the same way that the other Dwarven names are Old Norse representations of their 'actual' outer names. As a Norse name, Tolkien probably understood 'Gimli' to mean "fiery-lea" or "lea of fire".

Gimli is commonly mistakenly translated from the Norse as the 'highest heaven' after an assumption by Grimm and the appearance of 'Gimli' in the account of the aftermath of Ragnarökk:
64.More fair than the sun,----a hall I see,
Roofed with gold,--------on Gimle† it stands
;
There shall the righteous----rules dwell,
And happiness ever--------there shall they have
    Snorri [in the Prose Edda] makes Gimle into a hall's name, while here it is the name of a mountain that houses this hall.
*The Poetic Edda* http://www.northvegr.org/lore/poetic/001_01.php

The later meanings are all influenced by the Latin gemma, a gemstone or by Grimm's assumption.
Gimli : Cognate with gimr, gimsteinn, a gem, sparkling stone (Alemannic gimme; AS. gim, gymstán; Lat. gemma; Engl. gem.), and thus denoted "The Shining Abode." When Grimm assumes that Gimli is a dative form of gimill (which he takes to be the same as himill, an older form of himinn, heaven), because Gimli is used only in the dative (Deut. Myth. p. 783), he errs, as Gimli occurs twice in the nominative form (Gylf. 3 and 17).

*Northvegr*. http://www.northvegr.org/lore/northmen/014.php

In an ?1874 Old Icelandic-English dictionary, the two readings are evident:
GIM, n. [in A.S. gim is masc., and so it seems to be used in Vkv. 5 ; A.S. gim from Lat. gemma'] :—in poetry a gem, a jewel; the sun is called fagr-gim, the fair gem; gims gerðr, a lady, Lex. Pout. 2. in poets metaph. fire, Edda (GI.) : never used in prose.

G-imli, a heavenly abode, sal sá hón standa sólu fegra gulli þakðan á Gimli, Vsp. 63 [Voluspa]; it occurs only there, whence it came into Edda i 2 ; even the gender is uncertain, whether n. or perhaps better dat. of a masc. gimill = himill = himin, n. heaven.

*An Icelandic-English Dictionary, by Richard Cleasby and Gudbrand Vigfusson*. http://penguin.pearson.swarthmore.edu/~ ... b0200.html

The fact that this Old Norse word is also to be found in Adûnaic is presumably just a coincidence, as the meanings are dissimilar.
User avatar
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:54 am
Top

Postby MithLuin » Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:12 pm

They pay a tribute of horses
Gwaihir’s information is a false rumour. Boromir is correct. This rumour is repeated to Eomer and refuted by him. See p.
426 of 'The Riders of Rohan'. In a very early draft of the story, it is possible that Gwaihir's news was intended to be the truth. (see Wilko's comment)

a hundred and ten days I have journeyed all alone
Boromir set out from Minas Tirith on July 4, 3018. (App. B: Tale of Years)
He gives more details of this journey to Celeborn when the company departs Lothlorien. See p.
365 of 'Farewell to Lorien'
(also Queen B's quote from UT)

Loth was my father to give me leave
Both Faramir and Denethor give their opinions on this decision later. See p.
656 of 'The Window on the West' and p. 795 of 'The Siege of Gondor'

Hador, and Hurin, and Turin, and Beren himself

Turin, the son of Hurin, was sent to Doriath to be raised by Thingol after his father's capture. A proud and brave man, he did many heroic deeds, but his life was cursed by Morgoth and was tragic. He slew Glaurung, Father of dragons, but took his own life. His tale is told in 'Of Turin Turambar' in The Silmarillion and the Narn in HoME III: Lays of Beleriand.

Don't know why I left out Turin before...I guess I spent too much time talking about Huor instead. Should anything else go in the brief synopsis, such as his friendship with Beleg, his marriage to his sister, or even the Black Sword? Maybe his epitaph - Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered would fit...

Non-italicized part is newly edited.
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby MithLuin » Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:01 pm

Seek for the Sword that was broken:
In Imladris it dwells;
There shall be counsels taken
Stronger than Morgul-spells.
There shall be shown a token
That Doom is near at hand,
For Isildur's Bane shall waken,
And the Halfling forth shall stand.


The Sword that was broken was Narsil, the sword of Elendil that broke beneath him when he was killed by Sauron during the Last Alliance. It was brought back to Rivendell by Ohtar, the esquire of Isildur, and has been an heirloom of the House of Isildur. It was not reforged, but usually kept in Rivendell. Aragorn received it on his 20th birthday.

Imladris is Rivendell. The name is Sindarin and means 'Deep-cloven valley'.

The counsels are given at the Council of Elrond and concern what will be done with the Ring.

Morgul-spells refers to black magic, such as the knife that was used to stab Frodo on Weathertop.

The token is the reappearance of the Ring after thousands of years.

Doom in this case refers to fate. The fate of many will be determined in the War of the Ring.

Isildur's Bane is the Ring. A 'bane' is an object that results in someone's death. Isildur was slain by arrows in an orc-ambush, but the orcs were only able to see him because the Ring slipped off his finger as he tried to escape by swimming away. Thus, the Ring betrayed Isildur to his death, though few know this obscure tale.

In Gondor, the hobbits are known in old tales as 'Halflings.' See note below. Frodo is the Halfling the dream referred to.

All that is gold does not glitter,

The usual statement is that 'all that glitters (or glisters) is not gold,' and is meant as a warning that not all is as fair as it seems or appears.
Here, Tolkien has reversed the saying to describe Aragorn as a 'diamond in the rough,' someone who 'look[s] foul and feel[s] fair.'
(perhaps this note should go in 'Strider,' with just a reference here?)

EDIT: How silly of me! See Wilko's March 8th post for a discussion of this line.

This same poem appeared in Gandalf's letter (p.167), but here we find that Bilbo claims to have written it. It is possible that Bilbo merely translated it (?).

It was that very night of summer

Gollum escaped from the Wood-elves around June 20th, 3018 (see Appendix B).

I came at long last to the dwelling of Saruman

July 10, 3018 TA. The journey took 10 days by horse and covered approx. (how many?) leagues.

when summer waned, there came a night of moon

Sept. 17, 3018 TA. Gandalf actually escaped in the early hours of the next morning. (See Appendix B)

I will bear you to Edoras...for that is not very far off.

Gwaihir carries Gandalf from Orthanc to Edoras in about a day, setting him down before dawn on the 19th. It is forty leagues from Edoras to the Fords of Isen (p. 514), and ten leagues from there to Isengard (p. 535). Thus, Gwaihir travelled 150 miles in one day (~6 mph). Unfortunately, this was in the wrong direction, so Gandalf had to <A TITLE="Click for more information about travel" STYLE="text-decoration: none; border-bottom: medium solid green;" HREF="http://search.targetwords.com/u.search?x=5977|1||||travel|AA1VDw">travel</A> back the way he had come once he got a horse. The land west and north of Isengard is desolate, though, so he would not have found a horse if Gwaihir had carried him that way.

it grieves me more than many tidings that might seem worse to learn that Sauron levies such tribute.

Here, Aragorn seems to accept Gandalf's report. Later, he says that he did not believe it any more than Boromir did (p. 420 of 'The Riders of Rohan'). Perhaps we are hearing his gut reaction here, before he stops to consider.

I came to Hobbiton

September 29, 3018 TA. Frodo met Strider in Bree that evening.

towards Bree...I went

Gandalf arrived in Bree in the evening of Sept. 30th. Frodo had departed that morning.

I was beseiged on the hill-top

The evening of October 3rd. Frodo saw the lights from far away. See p. 178-9 of 'A Knife in the Dark'

I sent him back to his master; but a great friendship has grown between us, and if I have need he will come at my call.

Shadowfax obeyed Gandalf and returned to Rohan. See p. 493 of 'The White Rider'

It took me nearly 14 days from Weathertop...I came to Rivendell only three days before the Ring.

Gandalf reached Rivendell on October 17th. The Appendix reports the date as Oct. 18th, but this is an error.
Last edited by MithLuin on Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

PreviousNext

Return to The Books (Tolkien)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests