M-E & Tolkien Trivia (Third Continuation Thread)

[Denethor]

No, the eye-colour is explicitly described in The Lord of the Rings.

Additional hint: the character is male.

[Voronwe_the_Faithful]

Ah, it is Théoden.

From the king’s hand the black staff fell clattering on the stones. He drew himself up, slowly, as a man that is stiff from long bending over some dull toil. Now tall and straight he stood, and his eyes were blue as he looked into the opening sky.

[Denethor]

Correct, sir.

(I decided to go for a seems-easy but deceptively tricksy question).

[Voronwe_the_Faithful]

That was deceptively tricksy!

I'll be back.

[Voronwe_the_Faithful]

I'll go with something easy.

What is the one specific contribution to the text of the published Silmarillion that we know that Guy Kay made?

[Voronwe_the_Faithful]

[Denethor]

I know he helped advise Christopher, and that the major "bridging" editorial inclusion was an updated Ruin of Doriath chapter. I always thought that was Christopher, rather than him though.

[scirocco]

It would help if there was some sort of reference book that we could look at for questions like this, that would list where all the various parts of the Silmarillion came from...

It was the insertion of part the Lay of Leithian into The Tale of Beren and Luthien, when Felagund and Sauron struggle together. One of the better "editorial interventions" in the Sil IMHO.

CT reads this aloud in the Tolkien Audio Collection and does it very well.

[Voronwe_the_Faithful]

It would help if there was some sort of reference book that we could look at for questions like this, that would list where all the various parts of the Silmarillion came from...

I'll get right on that! (As an aside, there is new massive four volume collection from Routledge’s Critical Assessments of Major Writers series bringing together "the best and most influential critical assessments" of Tolkien's work scheduled to come out next year, which includes the introductory chapter of Arda Reconstructed link).

Denethor, I and others have speculated that Kay is likely largely responsible for the (in my opinion very well done) Ruin of Doriath chapter, since he has shown much more aptitude for creative writing in his life than Christopher has, but there is no indication by either man that confirms that that is the case.

Your turn, scirocco!

[scirocco]

Okay. Tolkien was reportedly slightly miffed that C.S. Lewis dedicated one of his books to him, on the grounds that it was a bit too "lightweight'.

What was the book?

[solicitr]

The Screwtape Letters

[solicitr]

FWIW, Kay was also largely responsible for persuading CT to present the Silmarillion as we have it, as a constructed narrative, as opposed to CT's original idea which was to present it in a sort of Unfinished Tales or greatly compressed HME mode, incomplete texts connected by notes and commentary emphasizing the development of the legend over time.

[scirocco]

I wonder if CT now wishes he'd followed his own instincts.

Screwtape Letters is correct.

[solicitr]

I wonder if CT now wishes he'd followed his own instincts.

He wound up doing both.

[Voronwe_the_Faithful]

FWIW, Kay was also largely responsible for persuading CT to present the Silmarillion as we have it, as a constructed narrative, as opposed to CT's original idea which was to present it in a sort of Unfinished Tales or greatly compressed HME mode, incomplete texts connected by notes and commentary emphasizing the development of the legend over time.

Indeed, which is why I put it as "specific contribution to the text." Kay spoke at some length about this in a talk he gave back in 1988, as reported by Charles Noad in an article entitled "A Tower in Beleriand: A Talk by Guy Gavriel Kay, which was published both in Amon Hen and Mythprint, and as definitely worth tracking down. Personally, I am glad that Kay convinced him that a single continuous text without annotation was the way to go, though like scirocco I wonder whether CT regrets the decision. It sounds like the Beren and Luthien book that we are getting is more in line with Christopher's original vision for the Silmarillion. Is that your sense as well, soli?

[Galin]

Back up the wain here... how do we know that the unidentified golden-haired Lorien Elf was an Elda? Appendix F: "Elves has been used to translate both Quendi, the speakers', the High-elven name of their kind, and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there are the beginning of Days (save the Sindar only)."

Just sayin'

[scirocco]

That was also my initial thought, but Tolkien used "Eldar" so widely and inconsistently that you can pretty much make out any of the Fair Folk to be Eldar if you want to.

[Voronwe_the_Faithful]

Besides, the question wasn't about golden-haired Eldar, it was about golden-haired Elves, as it started "In Appendix F, Tolkien tells us of the Elves ..." not "In Appendix F, Tolkien tells us of the Eldar ... ."

[scirocco]

Well, it might be, and it mightn't be, either. Tolkien's exception "save in the golden house" is about the Eldar, not elves in general. One could therefore assume that the overall question was also making the same fine distinction between Eldar and Elves (this is the ME and Tolkien Trivia thread, after all!) but I agree that it's only an interpretation.

[Galin]

(...) Tolkien's exception "save in the golden house" is about the Eldar, not elves in general.

Yep, so we can't change it to "all Elves" to ask about golden-haired exceptions, especially when the paragraph that raises the matter distinguishes the Eldar from among the Quendi, twice. Technically Soli has asked the question correctly, since Elves can be used to translate Eldar, but in this section the exception refers to the Elves as in Eldar, distinguished from among the Quendi.

In my opinion

[Voronwe_the_Faithful]

Well, it might be, and it mightn't be, either. Tolkien's exception "save in the golden house" is about the Eldar, not elves in general.

True enough, but soli's question was clearly about elves in general.

The Authorities, it is true, differ whether this question was a ‘question’ according to the strict rules of the Game; but all agree that, after accepting it and trying to guess the answer, I was bound to give the answer soli was looking for.

[Galin]

In that case... Nimrodel, string, or nothing!

Or something!

[solicitr]

Of course, depending on which Tolkien statement one wishes to believe, the Nandor were Eldar as well, certainly People of the Great Journey.

I don't think Tolkien ever quite felt up to writing Avari into his stories-- from the eerie Ilkorindi of the Lost Tales right up to the Silvan Elves, all the Elves that appear on stage wound up eventually getting promoted to Eldar.


----------------------

Okay, I guess it's my turn.

While there were other trivial differences between hardback editions of the LR and the Ballantine paperbacks, for many years there was one rather significant difference (aside from the maps). What was it?

(No, I don't mean the "only authorized edition" blurb on the back cover. I mean in the text itself)

[Galin]

Erm, I smell my toast burning regarding what Tolkien published about the term Eldar, compared to... oh well... okay then... I'll shaddup for now

[solicitr]

Any takers?

[scirocco]

Erm, I smell my toast burning regarding what Tolkien published about the term Eldar, compared to... oh well... okay then... I'll shaddup for now

Could be worth its own thread...

Any takers?

Was it the Appendices that were omitted? I seem to recall some old paperback versions not having them but I could not swear as to the publisher.

[solicitr]

Was it the Appendices that were omitted? I seem to recall some old paperback versions not having them but I could not swear as to the publisher.

That was the old A&U one-volume paperback, which included The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen but nothing else.

[scirocco]

Apparently Ballantyne Books omitted the Index, according to Hammond and Scull.

[Morwenna]

All I can think of is Frodo's greeting to Gildor's company that uses the word "omentielvo" which in the Ballantyne was "omentilmo." But it's only a guess because I never saw the early hardback editions; I only know what was later said to be a misprint.