The Writer's Shrine: The Boys are Back

[Jilbo_Baggins]

The question we ask is, were we this person in this predicament at this time with this history, what would we do next?

That's the problem with Martin, he pays no attention to the rules on what any of his characters will do next. He breaks all the rules. Martin makes it darn impossible for me to enjoy some of his most interesting characters since he is more interested in making them dead... and yet he is still able to write from within 'them' long enough for me to grow attached and root for them. Growing attached to any of his characters is a worthless cause wrought only with pain and self mutilation.

Last night I was quite surprised by a sudden idea for a poem. I don't know if I will write it down eventually or not, but a line suddenly came into my head that I think is worth putting to paper at some point.

“We die containing a richness of lovers and tribes, tastes we have swallowed, bodies we have plunged into and swum up as if rivers of wisdom, characters we have climbed into as if trees, fears we have hidden in as if caves.

I wish for all this to be marked on by body when I am dead. I believe in such cartography - to be marked by nature, not just to label ourselves on a map like the names of rich men and women on buildings. We are communal histories, communal books. We are not owned or monogamous in our taste or experience.”

Oh, do write it down, Silwen. Always act on your inner writer intuition - Also add to the list as 'best ever quotes'. Gives me chills!

And how's this for blasphemy - there's nothing great about Tolkien's writing either, but I still admire every word.

Now you've gone and done it.

Throws two armfuls of squids at Will

Ok...so, I have very small arms.

One of my strengths and failings as a writer is that I chose to write from character perspectives first and foremost. This is a strength because it supports the shaping of solid characters and, I am pleased and relieved to say, I've shaped a number of characters over the years that have been solid enough for people to engage with. Real, breathing, human beings that identify, wonder about and invest time in these imaginary characters of mine. There, I feel, is the magic of writing.

Very eloquently said, Wilding Elora. It must be that 'hobbit wizard' within

[LalaithUrwen]

Well, allow me to add a few more then for you:



Tolkien's writing is great. I would say this messageboard and others like it are a testament to that.

Now, Martin, otoh, I haven't even been able to get beyond the first few chapters of Game of Thrones. I thought it was just meh. I suspect it would improve as I went along or if I was in the right mood, though.

Silwen, you should write it down. <poke>

Will, yes, now you know me.

So, um, serious writing stuff.... Nope, I still haven't done anything.

[PatriotBlade]

I've done no real writing, but I have decided to scrap a couple chapters and a month's worth of work on one of my stories because it was throwing off the feel I was going for in the story. The problem is, I actually LIKED the work, it just wasn't right for that particular story. *grumble, grumble, pout, grumble*

[A_Simple_Poet]

Honestly, I wish there wasn't an ocean between us! I bet we would have some good argu-... erm, discussions.

I'm sure it's better for my health this way. But I'd still like to meet you after all these years. Wow, I sound profound and nostalgic. And I thought we had rules about quoting Ondaatje ... oh, never mind.

The flaw my approach is that any tale needs more than one character. As the cast grows, my focus becomes fractured and I find I am often caught by my slavish bond to my character. They determine the next steps, the twists and turns, at a rate they choose.

This is not a flaw. What you describe is merely a protaganist point of view. Other than static exposition and abundant cliches (aside from butchering grammar) there are no flaws in crafting fiction. Don't hold yourself to such a SERIOUS standard. At least not in the first manuscript. What you describe is every Charles Bukowski novel I've ever encountered. He ended up famous, posthumously (after drinking himself to death) because his long obscure work was real, gritty, and has merit. The style of Legacy, from what I have read, also has merit.

At that point, realising that I have been hijacked by imaginary characters and in sheer desperation, I ruthlessly kill them off - usually employing deus ex machina to achieve my ends.

Killing them off is actually quite daring but, yeah, deus ex machina is probably not. It didn't work for Shakespeare in Measure for Measure or Papa Hem in To Have or Have Not. Endings are tough which is why none of mine have meaning. In the Modernist school of literature, many endings are left unresolved and "open" or, I just go out of my way to make them sad. Or horror movie-like where the antagonist gets one last stab (whether it's the character or their machinations) that usually does in the protagonist as well. I hate endings. It's why I haven't finished writing a book in 25 years. Ask me why some time, if you must.

That's the problem with Martin, he pays no attention to the rules on what any of his characters will do next. He breaks all the rules.

There be no rules in the noble craft of fiction, mate. He's only doing what Ezra Pound told him. When he cut off Boromir's ... er ... Ned's dome (again, the Sean Bean curse) I said good show. That took major stoneage and yet it was just as necessary for that guy to die as it was for Gandalf to die. Again, ask me why sometime, if you must.

Growing attached to any of his characters is a worthless cause wrought only with pain and self mutilation.

Indeed. But Martin is about the "powerful play going on and the characters contributing a verse" (Dead Poet Society reference but you all knew that right? RIGHT????). It's the opposite model of what Elora espouses. Getting cozy with your character is, frankly, a girl thing to do. More about relationships and all that jazz whereas guys are about the action. Now whether this blatantly (and possible offensive) stereotype holds true or not with writing in general is open for debate (ding ding ... I've just rung the bell) though it seems to fit Martin's pattern even though all his characters are developed so richly that a reader can fall deep for them.

Whacking characters is part of life, folks. No one wants a loved one to die in real life. We are attached to them. Their death "breaks our rules" but is every bit as real as life itself. Again, major stoneage on Martin's part to risk alienating a reader but he's gambling that his action in the plot is enough to keep the powerful play going - and us buying his sequels. So far he's been right and it appears to be successful given the cat has a show on HBO.

So, um, serious writing stuff.... Nope, I still haven't done anything.

How about NON SERIOUS stuff? I'm giving you a week to write a limerick or a haiku and present it here. Or a paragraph piece of light prose before the guild enforcers at Parm's thread come and cite me from stealing their thunder by encouraging poetry here. If not, I'm doubling down on the squiddage you threw at me here AND in the real world. BECAUSE I KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!! You've been warned.

I've done no real writing, but I have decided to scrap a couple chapters and a month's worth of work on one of my stories because it was throwing off the feel I was going for in the story. The problem is, I actually LIKED the work, it just wasn't right for that particular story. *grumble, grumble, pout, grumble*

NO! Don't EVER do that. I once scrapped 70,000 words for the same reason. A near-Novel. And by scrapped I mean delete off all the drives and throw away the paper copies scrapped. Jack Kerouac advises to "accept loss forever." He may be right about that. But Baron Prometheus (a.k.a. Will the formerly Simple Poet) advises "don't lose it in the first place." You never know what you can mine from that writing at some point. Put it on a thumb drive and "keep it secret, keep it safe".

Tolkien's writing is great. I would say this messageboard and others like it are a testament to that.

Now you've gone and done it. Throws two armfuls of squids at Will.

Sir, my noodle is soaked. In what, you shall find out for yourself...for I am a Wilding!

Tolkien's writing style is great, eh? Do tell me why?

There. I've given y'all much to ponder. I expect a flurry of response. Or at least a squid a la mode. Raw and wrigggggggling.

[PatriotBlade]

Oh I had no intention of totally getting rid of it. Just because it's not working in one story, doesn't mean it won't work in another. I just mean that I'll stop working on this version and try again.

[LalaithUrwen]

How about NON SERIOUS stuff? I'm giving you a week to write a limerick or a haiku and present it here. Or a paragraph piece of light prose before the guild enforcers at Parm's thread come and cite me from stealing their thunder by encouraging poetry here. If not, I'm doubling down on the squiddage you threw at me here AND in the real world. BECAUSE I KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!! You've been warned.

Yessir!

[elora]

EUREKA!

A break through!

At last, I have it! The secret to success....

He ended up famous, posthumously (after drinking himself to death)...

I need to drink more!

Thanks, Poet!

[Silwen]

Ai, Lali, I think your poking me was the reason for my not receiving thread notifications once again. I keep wondering why it is so quiet here.

Still haven't written down that poem. It needs to percolate a little more so I can flesh it out. So far all my ideas point towards an erotic poem. I am trying to resist that a little bit though one of my favourite poems is an erotic one and fairly recent (considering when I last wrote a poem). it could still turn out to be something great in the end.

Will, I didn't know I couldn't quote Ondaatje. All I know is you don't like him. How could you!

Some of you who are in the UK (Or am I only talking to Americans here?I have no idea.) may know The Big Fat Quiz of the Year. It was on at the end of last year again and I thoroughly enjoyed the very SERIOUS (i.e. comic) reading of 50 Shades of Grey. The only good thing that ever came of this book. If you are in need of a good laugh, watch this bit here. I am still laughing!

[Jilbo_Baggins]

Still haven't written down that poem. It needs to percolate a little more so I can flesh it out. So far all my ideas point towards an erotic poem. I am trying to resist that a little bit though one of my favourite poems is an erotic one and fairly recent (considering when I last wrote a poem). it could still turn out to be something great in the end.

There is nothing wrong with erotic poetry, especially when crafted in good taste. Even naughty limericks can be noteworthy

Or is that not worthy of being considered SERIOUS writing?

Thanks for the squid-tossing backup, Lalaith. I wasn't sure how much squidding was considered appropriate in a serious writing thread.

I hadn't thought about the consequences of tossing a squid either - I got ink everywhere. Now I know how Gimli felt

[Silwen]

But the ink is great for writing! It's all got its advantages.

All the writing I have been doing today was tax related for setting up my business properly. There's so much information to keep in mind - now I know why people keep moaning about it.

Last night I continued reading The Children of Hurin and it took me a while to get back into the rhythm of the language. It doesn't always scan well and at times I just drifted off and couldn't remember what I had just read. I blame it on Tolkien's writing style and concur with Tolkien. It may not be perfect, but the stories just draw you in nonetheless and the world he has created is a beautiful place to escape to.

[LalaithUrwen]

Thanks for the squid-tossing backup, Lalaith. I wasn't sure how much squidding was considered appropriate in a serious writing thread.

Anytime! Especially if it's in defense of the Great Tolkien.

Okay, so I've been writing. This has not been pretty. I have been an emotional basket case, bleeding feelings everywhere. It may just be bad timing; I have some big things going on IRL.

In any case, I was working on revising something I wrote several years ago. It was just a short piece written after a very painful conversation with an ex-friend. This friend had been my dearest friend and then stopped talking to me out of the blue. I could never figure out why, and I definitely tried to talk to her. Anyway, about 7 years later, she finally confessed that she had fallen in love with my husband and had severed the friendship for that reason--a noble reason, yes, but still dang painful.

But, um, do I share it here? It's still rough. Of course, if you think this version is bad, you should see the original! I don't know that I want to share it, but I did want to say that I've been writing.

Thanks for making me a nutjob, Will.

[elora]

Some of you who are in the UK (Or am I only talking to Americans here?I have no idea.)

I am so uncouth as to have the temerity to not hail from any Northern Hemisphere or Western Hemisphere nation.

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA- *yawn* I have to yawn, as my nation views with deep suspicion and scepticism any obvious display of national pride. Can you guess???? Southern Stars....under the Milky Way tonight....?

[Silwen]

as my nation views with deep suspicion and scepticism any obvious display of national pride

Well, if you are in the south, then it can't be Germany! (I speak from experience.)

[A_Simple_Poet]

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA- *yawn* I have to yawn, as my nation views with deep suspicion and scepticism any obvious display of national pride. Can you guess???? Southern Stars....under the Milky Way tonight....?

New Zealander. Because their flag has stars and Australia would be way too predictable. If, however, you are Australian ... I'm guessing you are from Perth. Because such is my ego that I want to know somebody from Perth.

Okay, so I've been writing. This has not been pretty. I have been an emotional basket case, bleeding feelings everywhere. It may just be bad timing; I have some big things going on IRL.

In any case, I was working on revising something I wrote several years ago. It was just a short piece written after a very painful conversation with an ex-friend. This friend had been my dearest friend and then stopped talking to me out of the blue. I could never figure out why, and I definitely tried to talk to her. Anyway, about 7 years later, she finally confessed that she had fallen in love with my husband and had severed the friendship for that reason--a noble reason, yes, but still dang painful.

But, um, do I share it here? It's still rough. Of course, if you think this version is bad, you should see the original! I don't know that I want to share it, but I did want to say that I've been writing.

I've been writing too. But unless I share it that officially proves nothing. I'm not calling you a liar. I am calling me one. I've only "written" journal notes. (more on that in a bit) But if it is something you choose not to share on emotional sensitivity grounds then I respect that and can by no means enforce it. You are, however, not so easily let off the hook. I still want an original Lali limerick.

Thanks for making me a nutjob, Will

You're welcome. It's what Wills do best. Free of charge. And know that all writers worth their salt are a little nuts. I mean we have over 70 posts of that sort of insane diversity at the Shrine so far. Seventy posts, people. The Writer's Cafe would kill for that kind of activity - or that many crickets. Well done. But I digress.

I blame it on Tolkien's writing style and concur with Tolkien. It may not be perfect, but the stories just draw you in nonetheless and the world he has created is a beautiful place to escape to.

Veep - You meant to say concur with Will. And may I add, rightfully so for the very reasons you gave. The Professor is a great storyteller and excellent with description, backstory, etc. His dialogue weirds me out as inconsistant. We can pick up on that if anyone brings the calamari.

Even naughty limericks can be noteworthy

Lali, take note.

Or is that not worthy of being considered SERIOUS writing?

Does it say SERIOUS in the marquee any more? No. Because you people MOVED me and I'm not so easily mutable. I've conceded that "devoted" may be a better choice then "serious". I'm sure I'll catch all kinds of monkey poop for that one too.

Do any of you keep a writing journal? I know this is a boom boom, kindergarten, pixie dust writing kind of question but I wonder what the structure (or lack thereof) and/or binding of a DEVOTED fiction/poetry/whatever writer's journal looks like. Is it artsy? Does it boast doodles? Bullet points? Note that I've gone NINE DAYS WITHOUT INKING AN ELLIPSES!!!!!!!

Just thought I'd ask.

[LalaithUrwen]

Curse you!

I am supposed to be writing answers to my essay questions on a midterm exam for a class. Instead, I am writing limericks!

[PatriotBlade]

I have actually done a little editing of a story and have started typing up the parts of it that I worked on in notebooks. Maybe I'll get some new work done on it soon!

[LalaithUrwen]

That's encouraging, PatriotBlade! (You have a nickname, right? I just can't remember it right now.)

[LalaithUrwen]

Okay, here's my terrible limerick written while I should have been taking a midterm:


A hard task from the poet named Will
Made Lali regret posting here still.
But the squid did feel naughty
As it wrapped 'round her body--
A writer thrilled with ink on her quill.

[PatriotBlade]

Most folks on here call me PB or Heather.

That limerick was amusing. I used to write them sometimes, but my subjects tend to be too serious for the limerick format.

[elora]

Oh, bravo Lali!

Melikes! Serious- oops, devotedly! Yes, indeed!

New Zealander. Because their flag has stars and Australia would be way too predictable. If, however, you are Australian ... I'm guessing you are from Perth. Because such is my ego that I want to know somebody from Perth.

NEW ZEALAND!?!?!?

Them's fighin' words! I suspect you know that already, naughty Poet. I knew there was a I reason I liked you. Naughty people are much more fun than nice ones.

I am Australian...but I have some dear friends in Perth...so you might be able to count that in, Poet, if living vicariously appeals.

New Zealand! HARUMPH!

That's only marginally better than mistaking me for a Briton!



Do I keep a writing journal? Egad, no! I'm flat out keeping a journal! Much less one dedicated to writing! For a devoted writer, I have little interest in writing about my life and thoughts and doings. I'm much more interested in the made up stuff. I'm a fictionist through and through.

But I am forcing myself to keep a journal, for several reasons. Mostly, as an experiment to see if I can do it...and if I can make myself do it (a test of my authority over myself).

[Silwen]

Woops, yes, of course I meant I concur with Will - not Tolkien.

I never kept a writing journal, only a normal journal though that's gone out the window now. I briefly had a sketch journal when I studied art and am now thinking of starting a knitting journal. You can see my priorities of late.

What's wrong with New Zealand? I liked it there. I was ready to base my entire academic career on that country till I left uni.

[Jilbo_Baggins]

The most devoted thread at TORC!!

No wonder I keep losing track of postings since someone keeps changing the name of the thread.

Nice one Lali!

Speaking of midterms...I am already stressing out about them now that I have made the very questionable choice of going back to school at the ripe old age of *coughs* and I only just started

I realize now that time management is not my forte which goes to great lengths in explaining why I can't seem to get anything published. As for journaling I ceased that nonsensical chattering years ago when I realized how much I actually whined about anything and everything. I have been instructed that I must begin this hateful process again for an assignment and I am not looking forward to it. And whats with all this new fangled discussion board monstrosity? Why does everything have to be shared by every member of the class for grading purposes? I don't understand it at all. One professor even has us creating powerpoint documents of chapters for instructional purposes. Last I checked I was the student

Not meaning to offend any teachers but its just weird...

Ok, now that I got that rant off my chest, any advice from recent graduates or attendees would be greatly appreciated

That's only marginally better than mistaking me for a Briton!

Can't imagine what might have unfolded had you been mistaken for an American!

[LalaithUrwen]

Thanks, guys!

Jilbo, I am on a break from college at the moment, but I'm about 5 classes out from my next degree. It's all online, so that was weird. I know what you mean about the discussion boards. Odd. However, spending as much time as I have (and do) on messageboards, it wasn't too odd.

(The midterm is for a course of study I'm doing to be a family herbalist.)

I don't keep a writing journal. I do, however, keep a journal. Does that make sense?

[PatriotBlade]

The midterm is for a course of study I'm doing to be a family herbalist.

That is so cool! I too would like to become a certified herbalist!

[LalaithUrwen]

I am learning a lot, and I might go further at some point to be certified as a clinical herbalist. Right now, I just have to squeeze study into family responsibilities and a busy life, so it's been slower going than I would like. (Obviously, though, I'm halfway through! )

[A_Simple_Poet]

A hard task from the poet named Will
Made Lali regret posting here still.
But the squid did feel naughty
As it wrapped 'round her body--
A writer thrilled with ink on her quill.

Best. Limerick. EVER! Deliciously naughty indeed. Very Well done. We don't have a positive equivalent for the squid. This will have to do:

Them's fighin' words! I suspect you know that already, naughty Poet.

Yes I did. Sheer numerical odds were in favor of Australia. So naturally, to provoke you, I went the other way.

I knew there was a I reason I liked you. Naughty people are much more fun than nice ones.

Not as naughty as Lali. That limerick is still slithering around in my head. Calls to mind Lovecraft for some reason.

No wonder I keep losing track of postings since someone keeps changing the name of the thread.

If you're gonna tread here you have to earn it.

One professor even has us creating powerpoint documents of chapters for instructional purposes.

This seems a bit over the top. I would think that most journaling is of the pen and paper variety. I employ such a notebook which is more an amalgamation of lists and bullet points then a true journal. These ink scribbled notes are then transferred into MS Word in a more structured format for easy reference. I print them out and then ink those copies up too. In short, my journal process is a messy substitute for a fleeting memory but I find it crucial not only to abandon my long time disdain of journaling but to keep every note scrap I've composed. At this point, there are more notes in a journal than story on a manuscript, but then again I am building a universe.

Can't imagine what might have unfolded had you been mistaken for an American!

Ahem.

I don't keep a writing journal. I do, however, keep a journal. Does that make sense?

Sure. In my mind they are two different things. I tried combining them once upon a time only to find that (for me) I gravitated towards one side or the other.

I've heard it said that writing fan fiction isn't "real" fiction. For example. My fantasy stories that I write are based on the Warhammer Game world setting. My Space Opera stories are original inspiration. I've seem "serious" and successful writers handsomely paid for both. I'm interested in a group opinion on the matter. For my part, I enjoy reading "fan fiction" in pre-established worlds where my brain doesn't have to work so hard to dream up and/or interpret new realities or characters as opposed to new worlds (unless they are done up very well). So. Whatcha all think?

[Silwen]

Fan fiction is rubbish. Discuss.

[PatriotBlade]

A lot of the fan fiction I've read has been horrible, but there have also been some jewels in all that muck. I mostly write originals because should I ever get them finished, they'd be be publishable, where as most fan fiction isn't, except on fan sights and there's no money in it. I do have a few fan-fics in the works, but I mostly only work on those when I'm blocked up on everything else (so rarely).

[LalaithUrwen]

[

Best. Limerick. EVER! Deliciously naughty indeed. Very Well done. We don't have a positive equivalent for the squid. This will have to do:

Yay! Glad you liked it! (I have a whole different side off of Facebook. )

I don't keep a writing journal. I do, however, keep a journal. Does that make sense?

Sure. In my mind they are two different things. I tried combining them once upon a time only to find that (for me) I gravitated towards one side or the other. [/quote]

I should consider adding a writing journal into the mix. I say I should, but I know I probably won't.

As for fan fiction, I've written some in my day, and it was probably crap. However, I've read some good stuff that others have written, so I don't think it's all trash. (That being said, I'm really not interested in reading a story that imagines a love affair between Legolas and Aragorn. )

Legolas and Faramir, otoh.... (Just kidding!)

[A_Simple_Poet]

Yay! Glad you liked it! (I have a whole different side off of Facebook. )

Clearly, I need to get to know this person better. And incidentally, I'm ready for a limerick sequel.

Legolas and Faramir, otoh.... (Just kidding!)

Again - Though I would dig an Eowyn and Goldberry faerie romp.

Fan fiction is rubbish. Discuss.

Wrong.

Or perhaps I will contend with your argument if you can state your grounds on what fan fiction is EXACTLY?