The Rise and Fall of Calimendil, Fifth King of Cardolan

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Postby Valandil3430 » Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:58 am

Celebrimbor... who me? busy?

Not really - although I do have a full-time job that requires some overtime, a family with wife, 3 small boys and a dog, a house, church activities, school council, Cub Scouts - and try to find spare time for scads of little writing projects I try to do. I have avoided the use of the word 'busy' for several years though - it is overused, and some people tend to use it as a boast. But my days are filled, and I like it that way. If they were not, I'd find something to fill them with. :)

I have not only Kings of Rhudaur, but my account of Cardolan's kings works with it, although it's far different from yours of course, since I came up with it independently. It's in what I consider a 'working document' and I have some hesitations about posting it - but I will post those parts if you'd like to see them. I also hesitate to clutter your thread with it though - especially since it disagrees with the body of your story. Shall I though, or shall I start a separate thread on it?

As for a collaborative writing project, I had best decline. I don't want to take on too much - and there would probably be times I would have to set it aside for long periods. That's fine for a solo project, but not when others are counting on you.

As to discussion on governments and peoples: I think some governments can be far worse than others - to the point of being excessively oppressive - and I think people can be led astray by living in such places. Think of communist regimes, or Nazi Germany (that last certainly an example of both). I think it would be misplaced to romanticise the 'evil' kingdoms of Middle Earth - particularly when they worship the darkness and practice cruelty as a matter of course. I also think it's possible to objectively make value judgments about governments and the actions of people.

But that's me...
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Postby Gordis » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:45 am

Hail, Celebrimbor.

Now I have finished reading your story and I loved the end.
I want to congratulate you again on your style, you have managed to keep it old-fashioned and chronicle-like all through the story.

The end is very touching, as well as the fate of Iliandor himself, who decided to die in Cardolan, instead of going to hide n Arthedain. It added much to his characterization. It sounded so true, that Iliandor's book didn't find favor not only with Orodril, but with Amariel as well.

Calime's suicide attempt provided an excellent reason for Amariel to resign. By the way, poor Calime loved a married man, so, even without Telcaran's death her love was doomed anyway.

Where do you get all these names for your story? I loved all of them, Telcaran, Iliandor, or Orodril, for instance.

Your list of rulers is a great asset to the story. And it looks so authentic! I was happy to find the new Queen there. As you asked, I checked all the dates carefully, but I have found no problems- everything fits perfectly now. The only date that I would have changed (shifted slightly earlier) is this one:
"The lands became divided into quarreling fiefdoms until c. 1356, when Taranbar, the son of Halcar, son of Prince Telcaran, was granted the status of Ruling Prince of Cardolan by his liege-lord, Argeleb I, King of Arthedain."
Argeleb claimed Arnor overlordship in 1349, and was not resisted by Cardolan. So it seems reasonable that the appointment of the new ruling Prince should have followed shortly, around 1350-1352. But that is a very minor nitpick. All the rest seems perfect.

Here is the part that interests me greatly:
Orodril’s greatest contribution to Cardolan was the construction of the mighty Hedgewall; an immense structure of thick and thorny brambles and vegetation that ran in an unbroken line from the Nen-I-Sul, near the South Downs, to the river Gwathlo. He ordered it built by his engineers to fence out enemy invaders, whether they be from Angmar or Arthedain, and prevent them from marching on his abode in the south. Yet in later years, well after his death, its walls were breached by the great host of the Witch King in the war of 1409, and much of its length was razed to the ground. The smoke and reek of it was said to have been seen as far away as Fornost Erain.


The Hedgewell is a great idea, but its site seems wrong to me. The line from South Downs to Gwathlo doesn't cover Tyrn Gorthad neither from the invasion from the North-East (Angmar), nor from the North (Arthedain).
Actually I was immediately reminded of this place in LOTR, where the journey from the Barrow-Downs to Bree s described:
They went forward steadily, but they soon saw that the Road was further away than they had imagined. Even without a fog, their sleep at mid-day would have prevented them from reaching it until after nightfall on the day before. The dark line they had seen was not a line of trees but a line of bushes growing on the edge of a deep dike with a steep wall on the further side. Tom said that it had once been the boundary of a kingdom, but a very long lime ago. He seemed to remember something sad about it, and would not say much.
They climbed down and out of the dike and through a gap in the wall, and then Tom turned due north, for they had been bearing somewhat to the west. The land was now open and fairly level, and they quickened their pace, but the sun was already sinking low when at last they saw a line of tall trees ahead, and they knew that they had come back to the Road after many unexpected adventures.


So here is the wall of Cardolan, lying parallel to the east-west road at a distance from it. It clearly protected Cardolan from the North and North-West - both from Angmar and Arthedain. I Believe, you should "incorporate" this canon part of the wall into Orodril's Hedgewell, making it practically encircle Cardolan West - Eas, from the Old Forest to the South Downs, and from there South to Gwathlo.

I also checked the Hedge of Buckland. It is written that it was made by hobbits. But, perhaps they only renewed the older structure - another, western, part of the Wall of Cardolan?

All this is very exciting.
By the way, do you remember our talk about the maps of Rhudaur? I have found some on the net, have a look:
http://hobbitale.iespana.es/mapas/rhudaur.jpg
http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/doc/images/rloadblock.jpg
http://formenos.iespana.es/formenos/runas/tierra_m/mapas/rhudaur.jpg
Do they correspond with your story? I have found Cameth Brin, but nothing else.

Is Carn Dum a 'city' in the traditional sense of the word? I thought that Carn Dum referred to the actual tower, and/or the network of caves and caverns in the mnts. Perhaps it is both. In any case, yes, they were certainly once the home of a dwarven colony. I can't recall right now why they were abandoned, though.
I checked again, and found that in Tolkien's own writings the term "city" was not used. Neither was "fortress". Nor there is anything about dwarves and caverns. It is all conjecture (sigh).

But I still wonder how much the Witch King would make himself visible to his subjects.
. He will not make motivational speeches from atop his tower, for sure! :lol: I don't think he will be drinking beer in the taverns of Carn-Dum city either. He will be living in his castle, seen by selected few, or leading his host to battle, mantled, helmeted and masked. Some public appearences are inevitable for a mortal king. Sauron was not trying to appear human, but the Witch-king was.
And how he can make himself visible, if at all, is a very difficult question, it can be discussed for days on end. I have some ideas... but canon tells us nothing.

Thank you again, Celebrimbor, for posting your story and bringing it to the end so brilliantly.

Gordis
Last edited by Gordis on Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gordis » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:45 am

Pity, Valandil, that you will not be able to participate in Celebrimbor's rpg.

I hope you will at least post your work on rulers of Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur here, in a separate thread, so it cold be discussed. :)
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Postby rowanberry » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:49 pm

I've also read the last part now, and it sounded quite realistic. :( And, the list of the kings and queens was nicely compiled. :thumbsup: I haven't had time to check the little what exists in the canon so, I can't say yet if there's anything that could be corrected; I'll get back to it if I find something.

Gordis, the maps you found were interesting; only, Angelfire doesn't allow direct linking so, one has to get there by detour through the main site.

Valandil, it is a pity that you won't have time for a RPG, because your fanfic is really good. But, having a job and a family myself, I can well understand it.
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Postby Valandil3430 » Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:42 pm

Gordis wrote:...I hope you will at least post your work on rulers of Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur here, in a separate thread, so it cold be discussed. :)


OK - I have done so - although I don't know if anyone has seen it yet. :)
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Postby Celebrimbor32 » Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:53 am

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to read and make comments on my lengthy tale. :) Your advice is greatly appreciated! Sorry I've been a way lately - the hardrive on my PC went out last week. :(

Gordis, thanks very much for posting the links to the Rhudaur maps!! Those are the very same maps that are inside the RP module by ICE that I used to have a long time ago, but lost them, alas! I almost forgot how wonderful all of the ICE maps were. I wish that company was still around. Thankfully I still have quite a few of them still in my possession (including some rare ones such as Mordor, the Grey Mnts., Cardolan and Mirkwood).

Where do you get all these names for your story? I loved all of them, Telcaran, Iliandor, or Orodril, for instance.


> Thanks. Actually these three names are my own inventions, but a number of others I use in the tale I 'borrowed' from names included in the old ICE modules.

As for Orodril's Hedgewall I now think that you are right about that. As soon as I have time I will go back into the canon and edit, per your suggestion :)

Seriously, I do hope you find the time at some point to turn your ideas on Angmar into an actual story. And if you decide you want to try coming up with a new Arnor RPG together just let me know when you think you might have enough time to do so. :)
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Postby Gordis » Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:32 am

Hail, Celebrimbor!

It was a pleasure to read and review your tale. I hope to read your next one now.

So the maps are the same? Great! only it's a pity that the names of some of the fortresses are not there.


And if you decide you want to try coming up with a new Arnor RPG together just let me know when you think you might have enough time to do so.

The gigantic Rpg on Entmoot has just crushed in smoke and flames, leaving a distinct smell of sulfur behind. :evil:

So, I guess, I will have more time now, perhaps it applies to Val as well, and to some other very good players there.
In a week or two, I will be missing role-playing terribly, I think. One gets too drawn to it. :)

So, if you come up with a more detailed outline of your RPG-proposal, it might work, I believe.

Gordis
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Postby Wand*of*Death » Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:10 pm

Hey there, Celebrimbor32! Have a moment for an old fan? Email or message me and check the BELERIAND Word Aside thread. Hope to hear from you soon!
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Postby RavenTinuviel » Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:19 pm

This is an excellent story! I have been reading Valandil's stories, adn I saw this one and skimmed through it. I will definitely read it in depth. I noted the discussion on Annuminas, one of my favorite cities of the Middle Earth mythos. On its abandonment, I have weighed the possibility of an early abandonment not long after the War of the Last Alliance, and a late one around the time of fragmentation. In the outline of my fanfic I have it being slowly abandoned over the centuries, when finally more people lived in Fornost than in Annuminas, and the ruling seat was moved then to Fornost, for Annuminas had fallen into disrepair. I agree there was a tower, but it possibly fell with the harsh elements beating on it year after year with no upkeep. If I get my story into a somewhat finished state, I may post it but I am sure it will pale in the shadow of this one and Valandils.
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Postby Celebrimbor32 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:11 pm

Hail, Raven! Thanks for dropping by. I appreciate your compliments on my tale and would welcome any constructive criticism you might have. I too have always loved the idea of Tolkien's Annuminas. If I were to live anywhere in Arnor it would certainly be there! I spent over two years on this lengthy Cardolan tale of mine and, looking back on it now nearly a year after its completion, wish I would have done a few things differently. Speaking of Annuminas, the one big goof I made with this story is my treatment of this city. When I wrote the Annuminas section in the first half of the canon I have it still being inhabited by the lords and ladies of Arthedain almost up to the time of the war of 1409! Ugh! I now agree with Gordis and Valandil - Annuminas was almost certainly abandoned long before T.A. 1409. I thought seriously about rewriting the entire first half of the story but I just don't have the time these days. I will leave it as it stands for now - errors and all. I will move on to my next literary project instead :) At any rate, I agree with you about Val's story: he has a really good start thus far. His tale has lots of potential!...If you decide to post your Arnor story at some point by all means announce it here or elsewhere in this forum. I will be happy to read it!

Happy writing to you!
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Postby Gordis » Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:03 am

Hey there, Celebrimbor!

How are you? I have not heard from you for a very long time. Valandil also misses you.

How are your new stories going? We have relocated our Arnor RPG to the new site here:

http://www.northernkingdom.proboards98.com/index.cgi

You are always welcome - as are all those interested in Arnor history!

Cheers,
Gordis.
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The next story?

Postby Edmund the Scholar » Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:50 pm

I have been reading Celebrimbor32's epic and following the treads. I see that they are old by a year, but I was wondering...and eagerly waiting... to see if he has picked up his pen and written the second story to which he eluded.

Has anybody seen it? I know that he writes under a different moniker, perhaps it is posted under one of these.

-A new fan.
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Postby Celebrimbor32 » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:23 am

Greetings all! It's been a while since I've had much time for TORC these days so I haven't been able to post in here lately. Anyway, Thank you for reading my story, Edmund. I sure did put in a lot of time on it (about 2 and a half years!) so I hope it paid off. After re-reading parts of it I feel like I could do better now in certain sections. Particularly in the first half. But that's okay. I'll leave it as it is for now. Perhaps someday I'll go back and revise it...As for my second ME story, well, it will have to wait a while. I still have a good idea for a Numenor epic that I want to work on at some point but that, too, will have to wait. Right now I am busy at work attempting to write an actual historical fiction piece that I hope to (or should I say 'dream' about) publishing. It's great fun, I'll tell you, but I dread the actual process of luring an agent and publisher my way! But first I have to actually write the darned thing :)

Thanks for the invite, Gordis, but I am far too busy with real life to do much RPing. But I'm glad your Arnor RPG is a success :)

Cel ~
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Postby Arassuil » Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:57 pm

Celebrimbor, this must be the tale you you said you were re-writing in Valandil's thread? No matter. It's an interesting read as-is. I've been searching out and bookmarking all the good tales of Arnor and the Dunedain I'm finding here in Scriptorium. Its an area that seems to get passed over since it didn't have movies to glorify it.

I hope you find the time and muse to write more or re-write what you want.
:)
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Postby Celebrimbor32 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:31 pm

Greetings, Arassuil! Thanks for stopping by. Yes, that's right. I am rewriting this entire story from start to finish. Looking back on this thread (which I started several years ago now) I have always thought that it could be improved upon and it has been nagging at me for a good while now. At first I told myself that I wouldn't give in to the temptation to do so, but I ultimately caved. However, I am only doing so on condition that some of it may be interchangable with a historical fiction piece I am trying to write on the old Welsh legend of Madoc ap Owain Gwynedd. So I decided to try my hand at my old Cardolan tale again after I ran into a nasty brick wall of writer's block with the latter story. Hopefully rewriting this piece will give me the momentum I need to get me past that wall! Afterall, if I ever want even the slightest shot at being published one day I have to stop writing Tolkien fan-fic, which is very hard since I love it so much, and also because I have a lot of ideas I want to try out with Tolkien.

As for my new version of my Cardolan tale I think it is safe to say that it will far surpass my old original model. I can tell that already even though I am at present barely 25% of the way through it right now. It will be a lot different from this version, I can tell you that much. I'm eager to begin posting it here but I want to have more stock material composed first before I do that. I hope to start posting it sometime before the major holiday season begins. Thanks for your interest, though!

Also, I every intention of reading your Arassuil's Journal thread very soon. I should have some more time to catch up on it next week :)
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Postby rowanberry » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:04 pm

I'm eagerly anticipating to see the rewritten version. I'd recommend even the current one to anybody who's interested in stories about the North Kingdom. :)
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Postby Celebrimbor32 » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:57 pm

Thanks for that, rowanberry! Long time no speak! It's not that I necessarily dislike my first version of my tale but have always felt that it could be improved upon. Especially the first half. I think you will find little that remains unchanged in my new version. Indeed, Calimendil isn't even the star character in my new tale anymore (though he is still unavoidable as a key player in the narrative). I have cut a few unnecessary characters out and included a new hero that I have wanted to try out for a while now and decided the best way to do it was to incorporate him into this story. In fact, he is my substitue character for Iliandor, who has also been cut. The basic underlying plot of Calimendil waging war on Rhudaur and being slain in battle, thus ending the true line of Isildur in Cardolan, remains intact, but other than that - not much remains from before. I'm having a blast writing it right now and, thankfully, my muse has not deserted me thus far! I'll try to start posting in here sometime before the winter holiday season. Until then I'll just be lurking around the forums :)
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Postby Arassuil » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:20 pm

Its good to hear your re-write is going well Celebrimbor. I know what you mean about how re-writes can be quite different from the original draft. I usually give my re-writes different names when they get so different. I do look forward to your postings!
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Postby Celebrimbor32 » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:44 am

I've been on vacation, but I'm back. Phew! It's always good to be back home again :) Anyway, you're right, Arassuil. My re-written story is just that - re-written. In fact it is so different that it will be almost unrecognizable to those who may have read the first version. It will certainly have a different title. Dare I to say that this version is a dramatic improvement on the former, but I'll let whoever has the time to read my upcoming tale be the judge. I'm afraid it is going to be quite long (the way it is progressing up to now). It's seems to me that revising a previous work actually takes much longer than I thought it would. Plus, I have found it somewhat useful to compose the first few chapters out of numerical order - something I have never done before. I have chapters two and three nearly finished but can't seem to get chapter one the way I want it to be (ie. I am working on my fifth attempt at the first chapter!). I think I might have developed a bad habit of over-editing over time, alas :( Bearing all this in mind I think I might go ahead and post the Prologue very soon. Maybe in a week or so. I've got so many other things going on in RL right now that I feel if I don;t get on with this I'll never get in completed!
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