Excerpts from my "Annals of the Northern Kings"

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Postby Valandil3430 » Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:37 pm

Oh - and then this note rightly goes after the whole:

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* some dates differ from those shown in ‘The Peoples of Middle Earth’. In the dates there, Elendil was born in 3119 SA, and Isildur in 3209 SA. The alternate dates in this account support the tales that Amandil was Ar-Pharazon’s contemporary (Ar-Pharazon having been born in 3118 SA). The other difference is for Aranarth – the text cited gives his birth in 1938 (PoME), but all accounts agree that his parents, Arvedui and Firiel, were wedded in 1940 – so the date of 1942 as a birth year seems more logical.

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Enjoy! :)
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Postby RavenTinuviel » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:47 am

By saying "all" accounts, what exactly do you mean? You note that in 'PoME', it gives Aranarth's birth as 1938. I assume when you say "by all accounts" you mean this to be Appendix A in Return of the King:

"It was at this time that Arvedui, heir of Araphant wedded Fíriel daughter of Ondoher (1940)"

So your claim of changing the date of the birth of Aranarth as "more logical" is really your way of making the story more moral for your consumption. With these actual published dates, it is more logical that during a visit in late 1937 or early 1938 by Prince Arvedui to the palace of King Ondoher, Arvedui and Fíriel were smitten by the first sight of each other, and they talk and they spend time together and they fall in love, even while discussion of an arranged marriage are being discussed between Kings Ondoher and Araphant. Before Arvedui leaves for the north, they unwisely have a rendezvous in the night, maybe rationalizing it in the heat of the moment by thinking that with dark times ahead and war looming on the horizon, they would be bringing the lineage of Elendil back together with a common heir. So when Fíriel is found to be with child, she proclaims it to be the child of Arvedui, but instead of bringing unity, it brings scandal. The marriage is arranged to take place as soon as possible afterward.

Yes, the published dates do lead one into writing up a great dramatic fanfic.
=:)
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Postby Valandil3430 » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:53 pm

RavenTinuviel wrote:By saying "all" accounts, what exactly do you mean? You note that in 'PoME', it gives Aranarth's birth as 1938. I assume when you say "by all accounts" you mean this to be Appendix A in Return of the King:

"It was at this time that Arvedui, heir of Araphant wedded Fíriel daughter of Ondoher (1940)"

So your claim of changing the date of the birth of Aranarth as "more logical" is really your way of making the story more moral for your consumption. With these actual published dates, it is more logical that during a visit in late 1937 or early 1938 by Prince Arvedui to the palace of King Ondoher, Arvedui and Fíriel were smitten by the first sight of each other, and they talk and they spend time together and they fall in love, even while discussion of an arranged marriage are being discussed between Kings Ondoher and Araphant. Before Arvedui leaves for the north, they unwisely have a rendezvous in the night, maybe rationalizing it in the heat of the moment by thinking that with dark times ahead and war looming on the horizon, they would be bringing the lineage of Elendil back together with a common heir. So when Fíriel is found to be with child, she proclaims it to be the child of Arvedui, but instead of bringing unity, it brings scandal. The marriage is arranged to take place as soon as possible afterward.

Yes, the published dates do lead one into writing up a great dramatic fanfic.
=:)


"More moral for my consumption"? Maybe. But I can address a further point about the inconsistency, AND give a second source. Maybe there are no others, so perhaps I shouldn't have said "all" - but there's probably some information in PoME for the year of the wedding.

In Appendix B, entry for 1940:
"Gondor and Arnor renew communications and form an alliance. Arvedui weds Firiel daughter of Ondoher of Gondor."

If Arvedui had indeed visited Gondor in 1937 or 1938 as you suggest, it would CERTAINLY have been an earlier "renewal of communications" than 1940 - wouldn't it? :wink:

I tend to think the "1938" date for the birth of Aranarth was just from a draft on a slip of paper - or that otherwise JRRT overlooked the inconsistency. And as for being a "published date" - along with other information from the HoME series, I think it should be taken with some amount of reservation - due to the nature of the material.

Perhaps the only other real possibility is that Aranarth was a son of Arvedui, but not of Firiel - which I also find hard to believe - especially since that would have severely undermined any attempt Arvedui might make on Gondor's crown (to the extent I doubt he'd bother).

Besides - the Elves always "saved themselves for marriage" - and stayed totally faithful to those they did marry. I think the Dunedain emulated this - at least those who clung to the branch known as "Faithful".

I've seen the observation... that in all his accounts of stories from Middle Earth, Tolkien doesn't give a single episode of marital unfaithfulness. Offhand, I can't even think of any premarital activities. Even a second marriage was almost unheard of...

:)



:)
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Postby RavenTinuviel » Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:09 pm

Valandil3430 wrote:In Appendix B, entry for 1940:
"Gondor and Arnor renew communications and form an alliance. Arvedui weds Firiel daughter of Ondoher of Gondor."

;) I do not have a problem on how you read it Valandil since anything is possible in fanfic, but I have to ask: Do you assume that Prince Arvedui just up and made the trek to Gondor and married, or Firiel trekked to Fornost and married without any communication?? How do you see it happening?

Valandil3430 wrote:If Arvedui had indeed visited Gondor in 1937 or 1938 as you suggest, it would CERTAINLY have been an earlier "renewal of communications" than 1940 - wouldn't it? :wink:

I tend to think the "1938" date for the birth of Aranarth was just from a draft on a slip of paper - or that otherwise JRRT overlooked the inconsistency. And as for being a "published date" - along with other information from the HoME series, I think it should be taken with some amount of reservation - due to the nature of the material.

:shock: Take what was actually written by Tolkien as reservation??? ;)

Valandil3430 wrote:Perhaps the only other real possibility is that Aranarth was a son of Arvedui, but not of Firiel

This makes for another good fanfic possibility! :)

Valandil3430 wrote:Besides - the Elves always "saved themselves for marriage" - and stayed totally faithful to those they did marry. I think the Dunedain emulated this

Yeah, but then there is the whole 'fall of man' aspect that can come into play, especially in fanfic. ;)

Since we are talking fanfic here, so one can make up a 1942 date or make up an unofficial stealth visit by Arvedui. I got little started on a story of my own of this and I will post it when its done.

Again, thanks for sharing your work!
:)
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Postby Valandil3430 » Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:44 am

RavenTinuviel wrote::
:
... How do you see it happening?
:
:


You read my "Letters of Firiel"... right? :wink:
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Postby RavenTinuviel » Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:57 pm

Yes I have, but letters to mother does not tell how Firiel was promised in marriage or how "renewed communications" was first initiated between the north and south. I will quit asking. Again, thank you for sharing your fanfics.
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Postby Valandil3430 » Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:33 am

RavenTinuviel wrote:Yes I have, but letters to mother does not tell how Firiel was promised in marriage or how "renewed communications" was first initiated between the north and south. I will quit asking. Again, thank you for sharing your fanfics.


See Letter #3 again... palantiri. :)
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Postby RavenTinuviel » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:59 am

Like I said.... I read it, and since that is all you have to say on the subject, I retract my questions. :P
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Postby Valandil3430 » Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:33 am

:?

I thought the use of the palantiri answered the "how" questions very well. Doesn't it...???
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Postby Arassuil » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:58 pm

Interesting reading you have here Valandil3430 even if its somewhat wooden in places.

On the part on Arassuil (I tried to quote that part but the site told me I used a forbidden word, which was contained in the part I quoted that was already posted. Go figure), I like the idea of time in Gondor. And yes, the Long Winter was merely a time of deeper freeze that lasted longer in the north, which we we're able to cope with. But the freeze further south caused much hardship to those not so used to it.
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Postby Valandil3430 » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:53 pm

Hi Arassuil - and Thank you! :)

I suppose this is "wooden" in places because it was really just intended as an outline. I literally started with the list of names, added the dates, added the information Tolkien gave us on each one... then added my own story germs. It's a "working document" that still has a long way to go. That is to say - each entry could become its own story! :)

And - I see I need to clarify my entry under "Arassuil"... When I say that the people of Eriador were "less troubled" during the Long Winter than those in Gondor or Rohan, I meant "less troubled by Orcs/Wars/(or whatever of that nature)". I imagine it got pretty cold up there in the north though - worse than usual. Brrrrr! :wink:
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Postby Arassuil » Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:38 pm

I have one of these chronos myself. I copied the Encyclopedia of Arda, and added my own notes.

Actually, Arassuil's reign as Chieftain was quite filled with troubles. The worst was passed though by the time of the Long Winter. By that time there were some small skirmishes as opposed to the full out invasion that was occuring in Gondor, and especially Rohan during that time. But ten or so years earlier we were hard pressed. Even the hobbits got into a bit of a scrape with the orcs then.
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Postby Arassuil » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:46 am

Had to find this as a point of reference in a story I'm collaboratively writing. Good work Valandil!
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Re: Excerpts from my "Annals of the Northern Kings"

Postby Arassuil » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:03 pm

I have found this as a fairly thorough summary of the Line of Elendil!
What source material did you use? I'm guessing HoME #12 in part?
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Re: Excerpts from my "Annals of the Northern Kings"

Postby Valandil3430 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:05 pm

Arassuil wrote:I have found this as a fairly thorough summary of the Line of Elendil!
What source material did you use? I'm guessing HoME #12 in part?


I started with that, and expanded on it - so it's definitely a work of fan-fiction. But I tried my best not to contradict anything. I believe I pulled from any other pertinent sources: LOTR text, Appendices, UT, Silmarillion, etc. I worked into it a number of "story germs" which I want to someday turn into full-fledged stories.
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