Martial Artists and other Combatants

The varied peoples of Middle-earth at times found unity in their pursuits, and all too often experienced deep rifts. Engage in lively conversations as we banter about the differences between the Alliances, and recruit for our People as well. Remember, keep it friendly.

Postby TarAlderion » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:19 pm

Lord_Morningstar wrote: Are you sure that you don’t do martial arts? Based on that I would certainly consider you to be a martial artist, and a quite proficient one at that.


I suppose that depends on one's defination of "martial arts." I personally tend to think of martial arts as the sport and stylized movement portion. And as you said, this does not have any practical combat uses in an actual given situation, but rather focuses more on form of movement. I would also characterize all of the choreographed "martial arts" in movies and such in this category as well. Now, Combat, in my defination, is a practical use, efficient and effective form of fighting. So, in my way of defining things, I do combat and not "martial arts."

I have never had any interest in the sport type of martial arts and can see very little usefull to my own applications. But, I will not discount that it does serve a purpose to many others and has very good traits such as its physical/exercise values, it helps to develope coordination and muscle skill, it developes strong dedication, determination, and patience. Which I would much rather have people devoting their time to sport styled marital arts than sitting exposing their lives to the corruption of the world and contributing to it.

I agree exactly with you Witchwench. Many people are decieved into believing that just because they can spar in a controled situation, they can successfully fight in an actual situation. What they fail to realize is in an actual real life combat/fight situation you are facing an opponent who has the intention to seriously injure/kill you, unlike sparring or competition where injury is not the ultimate goal. In a sparring or competition scenario the main goal is to use your mental and physical skills to best the skills of your opponent, in a fight the goal is (depending on the side you stand on) to either survive and limit injury to yourself, and/or injure and harm your opponent to such an extent that they can no longer fight against you, flee, or in an extreme, cease to live. In competition and sparring there are rules which the participants are required to follow and the motive is different, if one were to try and go into a fight situation with rules, you will give serious advantage to your opponent, who probably wont be following any rule but one, bring the most harm to you as possible. The other difference between a fight and a controled situation is that everything will happen faster, harder, and with more detriment. In a fight you will not have as much time to react to the situation, if you are struck it will be more damaging as there is no restraint, and in return your strikes will be the same, and above all else the situation is completly unpredictable. I have heard of many cases where 5th degree black belts in various martial arts have gotten the living hell beaten out of them by street thugs for these very reasons. And probably some of the other reason for this type of occurance is arrogance and over confidence. Some of these experienced and high ranking martial artists, who are very skilled and capable of fighting well, have gotten to the point where they think that they can beat anyone, so they let down their guard a bit, and learn the hard way, I suppose you could say.

Now, what I have developed and the combat that I teach does not revolve around a series of learned moves, but rather is essentially developed by the individual in order to maximize their own efficiency and strengths, and minimize their weaknesses. There are some learned skill movements, but they are completly adaptable for the individual. I do not focus on form, save what is the most effective and efficient form of movement that can be achieved, which vaires per individual. Also I developed my combat to act on different levels either defensivly or offensivly and based on the degree of harm one wishes to cause. It kind of follows some of the medieval combat principles (which I am sure there is something like it in the other martial arts as well) being that there are three main types of blows/strikes, those which kill, those which disable, and those which just injure (and I suppose you could throw in those which miss or do nothing :wink: ) and according to efficiency, if presented with an oppertunity to kill, you take it, or your enemy will, other wise go for disabling blows which will prevent your opponent from successfully fighting against you, and finally if you dont get either, you are left with blows which cause injury, which can affect the performance of your opponent and bring oppertunity for the other types of blows. What I did was take this and incorporate it into my combat, first on the level of the degree of action you wish to take. If you want to disable your opponent with out injury, disable your opponent with injury, and finally kill or seriously injure your opponent (as in hospitialization). Then this is also engrained into the actual fighting, what strikes to take in order to obtain the most efficient and effective result desired. I dont have all sorts of fancy aesthetically pleasing and cool looking kicks and flips and spins and what not, just what works. And it is like you stated Witchwench, if someone were to try and pull out a fancy kick, flip, or spin they make themselves venerable, and an opponent will instantly take advantage of such venerability. True combat is not about the fancy form or moves, but about effect and efficiency. You must have no hesitation in harming your opponent, blowing out joints, breaking bones, choking to unconsciousness, and all of the other weak points. Knife combat is even worse as far as that goes, since it all of the offensive actions envolve serious injury with lots of blood, bio mechanical cutting, aterial cutting, and things of that nature, which most people cant even comprehend what that would actually be like to do to another human.

Anyways, I have been at this for entirely to long and I think its best if I cut it off here, otherwise I could be going on all night.

~The Lord Tar Alderion~
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Postby Lord_Morningstar » Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:56 pm

Tar Alderion wrote: I suppose that depends on one's defination of "martial arts." I personally tend to think of martial arts as the sport and stylized movement portion.


I would define a martial art as any sort of fighting art. As such, I consider things like boxing, krav maga or other military combat styles, sword and staff styles, ect, to be martial arts.

Tar Alderion wrote: I have never had any interest in the sport type of martial arts and can see very little usefull to my own applications.


I do see a role for sparring, even if a fairly limited one. Sparring teaches you to pit your skills against a thinking, reacting person. It teaches that there is a difference between moves practiced on a willing partner and on a resisting opponent. It forces the development of speed, strength and stamina. This was the logic behind kickboxing – it was created by practitioners of traditional karate who did not feel that they were developing effective skills simply by practicing point-sparring. I think that the logic is good – I would gladly pit a kickboxer against a traditional karateka anyday. It also explains the spread of things like San Shou, which is the sparring form of Wushuu, or the spread of Wing Chun and Jujitsu and even Hapkido into the ring.

That being said, I do understand martial artists who chose to avoid sparring. It can train people to get into patterns, and it is impossible to make sparring both very safe and very realistic. I have seen plenty of martial artists who do get too used to playing a game rather than learning to fight. And as you said, it can create false expectations. I would say that sport has ‘ruined’ many styles of Taekwondo and Judo. Still, when I become an instructor I will make sparring part of the training (I’ll probably teach Hapkido).

Tar Alderion wrote: It kind of follows some of the medieval combat principles (which I am sure there is something like it in the other martial arts as well) being that there are three main types of blows/strikes, those which kill, those which disable, and those which just injure (and I suppose you could throw in those which miss or do nothing ;)) and according to efficiency, if presented with an oppertunity to kill, you take it, or your enemy will, other wise go for disabling blows which will prevent your opponent from successfully fighting against you, and finally if you dont get either, you are left with blows which cause injury, which can affect the performance of your opponent and bring oppertunity for the other types of blows.


I would also add the need to consider legality in all of this. In medieval times, killing an opponent may have been appropriate. These days, it tends to be frowned upon ;). This is why I believe a good martial artist (or anyone out to defend themselves) will keep an eye on how much damage their moves will inflict. Ideally, you try to fight in such a way that you leave your opponents unmarked. In many cases that would be impossible, but I think that it is still an ideal worth working towards. There are plenty of cases where heavy force is justified and necessary, but others where a pressure point strike, lock or other move that will cause pain and immobilize without injury would be more appropriate (eg: a drunk guy at a party).
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Postby TarAlderion » Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:50 am

Lord_Morningstar wrote:
Tar Alderion wrote: I have never had any interest in the sport type of martial arts and can see very little usefull to my own applications.


I do see a role for sparring, even if a fairly limited one. Sparring teaches you to pit your skills against a thinking, reacting person. It teaches that there is a difference between moves practiced on a willing partner and on a resisting opponent. It forces the development of speed, strength and stamina. This was the logic behind kickboxing – it was created by practitioners of traditional karate who did not feel that they were developing effective skills simply by practicing point-sparring. I think that the logic is good – I would gladly pit a kickboxer against a traditional karateka anyday. It also explains the spread of things like San Shou, which is the sparring form of Wushuu, or the spread of Wing Chun and Jujitsu and even Hapkido into the ring.

That being said, I do understand martial artists who chose to avoid sparring. It can train people to get into patterns, and it is impossible to make sparring both very safe and very realistic. I have seen plenty of martial artists who do get too used to playing a game rather than learning to fight. And as you said, it can create false expectations. I would say that sport has ‘ruined’ many styles of Taekwondo and Judo. Still, when I become an instructor I will make sparring part of the training (I’ll probably teach Hapkido).


I do not discount sparring. Most of the way I teach is through a form of sparring. Granted it is much faster and more "brutal" than typical sparring. It is not safe by any means (but not excessivly dangerous either). I use full speed, full contact in my training exercises for the majority of things, but restraint is used of course on things which can cause injury greater than some bruises, scratches and what not. Though, these things arent reckless and the worst one usually gets is some brusing, maybe some scratches and what not, and occasionally a bloody nose from a miss deflected blow. But like you said, repitition in sparring can create patterns which seriously inhibit reactions in an actual situation. I try to avoid excessive repitition in any form of training for that part. Instead of ingraining moves into a student, I believe that skills should be taught, skills which allow a person to assess the situation, utilize their strenghts and their opponents weakness in order to gain the advantage, then use the advantage with adaptable skill based moves. This would differ from the typical sport marital art style of repeat moves over and over, then you know how to do that exact move, but that doesnt help if the situation calls for something else that is slightly different.
What I ment by not having use for the sport martial arts is the competition and strict "form" of a specific art.

Lord_Morningstar wrote:
Tar Alderion wrote: It kind of follows some of the medieval combat principles (which I am sure there is something like it in the other martial arts as well) being that there are three main types of blows/strikes, those which kill, those which disable, and those which just injure (and I suppose you could throw in those which miss or do nothing ;)) and according to efficiency, if presented with an oppertunity to kill, you take it, or your enemy will, other wise go for disabling blows which will prevent your opponent from successfully fighting against you, and finally if you dont get either, you are left with blows which cause injury, which can affect the performance of your opponent and bring oppertunity for the other types of blows.


I would also add the need to consider legality in all of this. In medieval times, killing an opponent may have been appropriate. These days, it tends to be frowned upon ;). This is why I believe a good martial artist (or anyone out to defend themselves) will keep an eye on how much damage their moves will inflict. Ideally, you try to fight in such a way that you leave your opponents unmarked. In many cases that would be impossible, but I think that it is still an ideal worth working towards. There are plenty of cases where heavy force is justified and necessary, but others where a pressure point strike, lock or other move that will cause pain and immobilize without injury would be more appropriate (eg: a drunk guy at a party).


But of course, definately, one always must be aware of the legality and legal consequences of any action. I teach how to kill and seriously injure so that such abilities are available if the situation one is placed in warrents such action. But, the first and foremost thing I teach is that one should never act excessivly in such manners. The only time I would kill or condone someone else using their skills to kill is if there were no other course of action which could have been taken. Moderation in action basically, use the least amount of force required to disable your opponent, and avoid injury if possible. But I can see some situations where more drastic amounts of force would be warrented, like some one attacking you with a knife or other deadly weapon (I would probably blow out a joint to disarm, then subdue until the authorities could arive. But if I could do that with out the injury I would, but thats an ify situation, and one you dont want to play with). But, in all likely situations, how often would one be presented with a situation which would warrent such actions anyway? Either way though, I believe it is important to have the skills and be able to use them, and understand the consequences of such action, even if you never have to use them. Better to be prepared than to be caught without.
And as for the medieval order of strikes, I was attempting to say that I designed my combat so that there are different degrees of force which one can choose to use, and within those degrees comes the priority of different strickes, not that every time you get an oppertunity to kill, you do :wink: . For example, if you are presented with a situation where someone has challenged you to a fight in order to boost their ego, and they throw the first blow. In this situation, one would determine that small force is needed to subdue the opponent, not deadly or injuring, so then all of the actions taken would not exceeed into injuring or deadly force. So, then under this if one recieved an oppertuinty to lock the opponent up in a hold and stop the fight very quickly, you take that first, if there is an oppertunity to create some amount of non injuring pain which would deter the opponent from future action, this would then come next in line, and finally any other blow or strike which would just result in some pain but not necessarily bring the conflict to an end (or something to that effect if you will, just for an example). Then under the different degrees of force would be the priority of strikes, ect. And the only time the killing blows would come into play would be if you were in a situation which warrented deadly force. So, that is what I ment by that.

~The Lord Tar Alderion~
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Postby Elemir » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:49 am

Lord_Morningstar wrote:
I would also add the need to consider legality in all of this. In medieval times, killing an opponent may have been appropriate. These days, it tends to be frowned upon ;). This is why I believe a good martial artist (or anyone out to defend themselves) will keep an eye on how much damage their moves will inflict. Ideally, you try to fight in such a way that you leave your opponents unmarked. In many cases that would be impossible, but I think that it is still an ideal worth working towards. There are plenty of cases where heavy force is justified and necessary, but others where a pressure point strike, lock or other move that will cause pain and immobilize without injury would be more appropriate (eg: a drunk guy at a party).


Remember the 12/6 Rule:

It is better to be tried by 12 than to be carried by 6!
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Postby Witchwench » Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:01 pm

Elemir, that is one of our favorite quotes at the cop shop! :D

But LMS does have a point, if one is getting into a bar room brawl and seriously maims or kills a person that is just being drunk or stupid, well the fact that he is a black belt is going to come into play, as it should. A Black Belt should know about control.

On the other hand, if some guy approaches me and tries to grab me in a parking lot, I am going to assume right away he is going to kill me and I am going to fight as if my life depended on it and I am going to kill him if I can. Seriously, if a man attacks me, I'm assuming the worst, if it is a drunk biker-chick, well, I'm not going to go to this extreme at all and would do just what I could to disengage from the situation.

Best defense of all really is to pack a gun :D
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Postby GwenElf » Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:36 pm

Witchwench wrote:Best defense of all really is to pack a gun :D


Somehow I think that defeats the purpose of this thread. ;):D True, though.

TarAlderion wrote:I have never had any interest in the sport type of martial arts and can see very little usefull to my own applications.


Pray tell, what exactly, in this day and age, are your applications for the type of combat you've been describing, other than self defense?
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Postby TarAlderion » Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:06 pm

GwenElf wrote:
Witchwench wrote:Best defense of all really is to pack a gun :D


Somehow I think that defeats the purpose of this thread. ;):D True, though.

TarAlderion wrote:I have never had any interest in the sport type of martial arts and can see very little usefull to my own applications.


Pray tell, what exactly, in this day and age, are your applications for the type of combat you've been describing, other than self defense?


As for using a gun, there is no honor in that (this being my own opinion, so no one get overly excited if you disagree, everyone is entitled to their own views). It takes no skill to kill with a gun, anyone can kill with a gun, and guns make those who would usually be unable to personally inflict damage, leathal. I do not like guns and never will. I will never carry one, own one, or use one (though I have shot before). Anyways, just my view on guns.

As for what applications I have for my combat, there are many, though the probibilty of the situations occuring in which I would use the more leathal combat, is not high. Likely, I will never be placed in a situation which I will have to use my combat, but never the less, that does not mean it can not happen, and does not warrent being unprepared if such a thing were to occur. The most likely use of my skills would be, as you said, self defense. But, if I were to be placed in a military situation where my duty envolved killing enemy targets, I would of course make good use of what I know. I dont plan on any military career in the future, but one never knows with the way the world has become now days. Basically I train in combat so that I have the skills, whether I use them or not. And as a side note, the comment which you quoted was said in relation to the fact that I do not participate in or care much for the sport styled martial arts, but instead favor practical, efficent and effective, combat, designed for real use applications. I don't care too much for the stylized movement and "form" portion of martial arts due to the fact that if one were to attempt to use such things in reality, you would put yourself in serious disadvantage. This refers to all of the fancy flips, kicks, spins, and what not. They look very impressive and take a great deal of skill and ability to execute, but if you were to attempt such a thing in a true fight, you would probably be laid to waste. And this ties in to some of the other reasons I dont care for sport martial arts, they tend to give people a false sense of being. Most who participate in such things don't understand that it is indeed a sport, and just because you participate in that sport, does not mean you have the ability to fight, you just have the ability to be a "martial" "Artist" (emphasis on "Aritst"). To know how to fight one must study a "combat." A combat is designed specifically for real usage in a practical situation and therefore uses only what is effective, not necessarily aesthetically pleasing.
Well, enough of that. See you all later.

~The Lord Tar Alderion~
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Postby GwenElf » Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:23 am

I pretty much agree with you about guns, but you can't deny that for someone who needs to defend him or herself, a gun is the best way. Not everyone is competent in the combat skills area. But yeah... guns.. :P

So! How about those martial arts? Kung Fu should be starting up again in a few weeks--yay!!
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Postby Lord_Morningstar » Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:54 am

Bump. Anyone here? Or have you all given up ? ;)

I went for a grading in Hapkido yesterday – black tip. I was very suspicious of the Hapkido syllabus at first, but looking back through it it makes a lot more sense. The black tip grading was mostly about applications of throws and defences from sitting on the ground. It was fairly short, although the next grading – provisional black belt – has a lot more stuff in it. There’s a lot of techniques using a short stick (dan bong if we want to get technical), some more applications of throws, and a lot of grappling. I can see how it’s all coming together now.
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Postby GwenElf » Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:37 am

I'm still here! Back at Kung Fu, knees are acting up, I may have a shin splint.. good times!! I tell ya, I'm so out of shape... :roll:
Anyhow, it's going well, all minor pains aside; learned a new form (which I should review) and, since it's the start of a new semester, we got a bunch of new students! When I joined, I think there were maybe 6 new students, not all of whom stayed. We had about 20 this semester, and though the number of people sticking it out is significantly less, we still have a good-sized group. :)

L_M-- I'm not quite sure I know what a black tip is. Is that like a stripe, or something totally different?

~Sil
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Postby Lord_Morningstar » Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:16 am

GwenElf wrote:L_M-- I'm not quite sure I know what a black tip is. Is that like a stripe, or something totally different?


Basically a stripe - an intermediate rank between red belt and black belt. It's meant to be a red belt with a black tip, but mine will be a half red/half black belt.
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Postby GwenElf » Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:37 am

Ahhhh, gotcha. Thanks. And extremely belated congratulations on getting it! :clap:

So, I hope the deadness of the thread is a sign that everyone is out practicing all day, every day. :D (Except, ya know, me...) Our KF class was filmed Wednesday evening by a guy who has to do a little video project for some class. Way to make you aware of everything you're doing wrong. :D
Still working on those forms and some new punching and kicking drills. I partnered up with a guy in my class who is a great deal taller and stronger than I am (then again, that applies to most everyone in that class) and the result was kind of amusing. Good practice for me, though.

~Sil
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Postby Lord_Morningstar » Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:42 am

Can you describe the drills? I know it's hard, but I'm curious about what Kung Fu drills look like compared to the Taekwondo/Karate style ones I'm used to.
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Postby GwenElf » Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:06 am

Well, lesse. Punching drills are a series of four punches (at least, the two I know so far are four-punch sets) strung together that get us to work on transitioning between stances as well as between different types of punches and blocks. Drill one starts with a straight horizontal punch (there're Chinese names for the punches, but I don't know how to spell them... :P) with the right hand while lunging into right front stance . Left hand is blocking across the chest. From there, you bring your left hand back to your hip (chambered) and your right hand comes across the front of your chest in a downward block while you transition into left cat stance, then lunge into left front stance and bring the left fist up in an upper cut. Right hand returns to chamber and left hand blocks across the chest, shift to right cat stance and lunge into right front stance while throwing a hook punch with the right arm. I'm not going to even try to describe the last one, but it's called a dragon strike. You twist into another cat stance and step through, throwing a sort of hammer fist strike with the right arm. I tried to find a diagram of all this and didn't have any luck. :P

Kicking drills just combine different types of kicks and (sometimes) punches. Kicking drill two, for example, is two front snap kicks, two rocket kicks, two inside crescent kicks, two outside crescent kicks, then an inside crescent which spins into an outside crescent and finishes with another inside crescent and a signature 'long fist' stance.
The other night we did some punch/kick combinations... two quick punches, a front snap kick, then another punch while settling into front stance (a front snap kick brings the knee up, strikes with the top of the foot (usually meant for the groin area) then returns to the knee-up position before returning back to whatever stance comes next, in this case, front stance.) Repeat on the other side.

Yeah, that was probably all really vague and confusing. :D

And then of course we have forms, but I won't even try to describe those.....

Your turn!! What's a Karate or Taekwondo drill look like? :D
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Postby Lord_Morningstar » Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:06 pm

GwenElf wrote: Yeah, that was probably all really vague and confusing.


No – it all made sense.

Your turn!! What's a Karate or Taekwondo drill look like?


I was actually thinking along the lines of One-Step Sparring, where one person punches or kicks, and another defends. Generally, the moves are sharp and linear, and the stances fairly deep. In general, the defender first steps out of the way of the attack – either to the left, to the right, or forwards to smother it. At the same time, they block in, out, up or down. They then follow up with strikes or kicks, and on a more advanced level, takedowns and throws.

Most people take some time to get the distance right – the biggest problem I see with it is people either doing their attacks and defences from unrealistically far away, or doing techniques that can’t reach (for example, not noticing that their arm from shoulder to elbow is not two feet long). You also often get people making them too complex – three to five moves all up should be enough, and probably the maximum you could hope to get in in an unplanned situation.
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Postby GwenElf » Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:44 pm

Lord_Morningstar wrote:I was actually thinking along the lines of One-Step Sparring, where one person punches or kicks, and another defends.


Oh. Well don't I feel stupid. :roll:

I've never actually done one-step sparring. We have done three-step sparring though, where the attacker is allowed three offensive moves; the defender can defend in any way s/he sees fit, but cannot make an attack until the attacker has put in his/her three attacks. Probably just like one-step sparring, only in triplicate. Steve was always telling me to move around more.. "We're not fencers, we don't have to stay on a straight line!" :D There's not really any special description I could give you of that, but it sounds like we have the same problems doing it that you've seen.

We also do punching circles (I don't think that's the right name, but I can't remember what they're really called), where about 6 people form a circle and one person gets in the middle. Someone in the circle attacks the person in the middle with a punch, and they block, then the next person in the circle attacks, and so on. It makes you utilize different blocks based on what's coming... unless you're me. I tend to use the same two blocks the whole time. :P We got really into it one time, and the person in the centre was using other people as shields, grabbing them when they punched and throwing them in the way of the next attacker. :lol: Good times.
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Postby Witchwench » Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:54 pm

Good to see people still here!! :D :D :D

LMS we do one step drills as well as two and three, I personally prefer just to spar, but the drills definitely have their place.

Okay, I think I have the videos finally up and running on our website.

If anyone would like to take a gander and let me know how they load for you and such I would appreciate it very much.

My lovely husband got into the website the other day and messed with all the colors and layout..grrrrr, it's especially grrr since this is my Christmas website he altered, not the regular one! It's like someone came in and rearanged my kitchen..ohwell, its the videos I want you guys to check out.

http://www.ntischools.com
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Postby SmogsFlame » Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:02 am

Hi. I'm very interested in different styles of Martial Arts, but sadly I'm not taking classes in any of them (yet). I prefer Ninjistsu and TaeKwonDo, I also think that Drunken Boxing is a very unique style.

But the real reason I posted was because I wanted to know what you (experienced fighters) guys think about UFC? I have a friend who is in training for it, and I wanted to know what other Martial Artists thought about it.
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Postby gimli_axe_wielder » Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:37 pm

looks good witchy!


Well I no longer practice any arts but I have a black belt in Kung Fu San Soo. I practiced for about 13 years. Unfortunatly due to injuries I've had to give up any sort of contact arts at this point. I bought a book on bushido and bought a sword to practice with and such. I specialized in weapons while doing Kung Fu so I know how to use one, but I find I always find something else to do once I get home from work and going out and practicing is the last thing on my mind!

Unfortunatly there aren't any schools near by that teach sword arts.
Actually that's a bit of a lie! I did find a place down the street that teaches I guess its the equivilent of Korean Bushido so I am going to take a look at that at some point soon.
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Postby Luthien79 » Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:08 pm

I started training in Wing Chun about a year ago.

I'm currently on Sui nim Tao level 2 and will, hopefully, be assessing for this in April and moving onto level 3.

Btw, I haven't visited this site or posted for a few years, lol. I used to be a member ages ago. some people may remember me. :)
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Postby GwenElf » Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:59 pm

Hiya Luthien!! Welcome back and welcome to the group!

Hiya to SmogsFlame, too! I know absolutely nothing about UFC--I had to look it up to even see what it was!--so I've got nothing for you there. If you stick around, though, I'm sure someone will have some thoughts for you.

Well, I'm developing shin splints--yay. One of my KF classmates recommended a technique for treating them, so I've been doing that, and I really need to get a new pair of shoes. I know the best way to get rid of them would be to take a break, but.... :(

On the upside, I learned the tornado and lotis kicks and definitely need to work on my jump-height for both. :P

~Sil
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Postby Lord_Morningstar » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:09 am

SmogsFlame wrote: But the real reason I posted was because I wanted to know what you (experienced fighters) guys think about UFC? I have a friend who is in training for it, and I wanted to know what other Martial Artists thought about it.


I’ll come out and say that I support MMA (Mixed Martial Arts). I think that the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship) itself can get a bit showy and try to appeal too much to the monster trucks and pro wrestling crowd, but the idea was an excellent one.

An eye operation that I had some years ago has more or less excluded me from full-contact sparring (a direct hit would destroy my right eye). I would love to train for and practice MMA sparring, though, even if I never set foot in the Octagon (which, even in perfect health, I probably wouldn't). I think that having to pitch your skills against anything thrown at you, standing up or on the ground, is excellent training, even if very intense.

Of course, MMA can be taken too far. Some people take the results of MMA as gospel about what works and doesn’t work on the street. They don’t notice that MMA matches are 1 v 1 on mats with a fight ending when a player taps out. Still, it comes closest to the real thing of any form of sparring.

ETA: I now have a provisional black belt in Hapkido.
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Postby Witchwench » Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:04 pm

That is great LMS, Hapkido is such a cool MA! How long do you have to stay in provisional status before moving up in rank/testing?

Thanks gimli for taking a look at the videos :) (I'm still grumbling over what my honey did to the site....sighhh) I'm sorry you are not still in it(martial arts, not the website :shock: ), but I think your desire for weapons training may fulfill the need :D :D

Waves at GwenElf, Hi Luthien (nice to have you back) and nice to meet you SmogsFlame :D
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Postby Lord_Morningstar » Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:06 pm

Witchwench wrote:That is great LMS, Hapkido is such a cool MA! How long do you have to stay in provisional status before moving up in rank/testing?


At least six months, and then until I can get myself down to the head school in Sydney (I live in Brisbane). The test looks hard, though, and will be difficult to train for, so I might give it a while and work on going over the syllabus and getting everything else right. I might also go 3rd Dan in Taekwondo before I go 1st Dan in Hapkido.
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Postby GwenElf » Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:28 am

Witchwench wrote:Waves at GwenElf, Hi Luthien (nice to have you back) and nice to meet you SmogsFlame :D


*Waves a very bruised arm back* Hiya! I've been meaning to watch your videos, but it seems that whenever I remember, I'm at school in a place where excess computer sound would be a bad idea. :P Maybe I'll just watch them muted.

Edit: Watched! Very cool--I especially liked the last three, where you could take a good look at the form. That'd be a great way to get students to see what they're doing right and wrong--record them and force them to watch themselves. =:)

Congrats to LMS on the provisional bb! :clap:
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Postby SmogsFlame » Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:42 pm

I’ll come out and say that I support MMA (Mixed Martial Arts). I think that the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship) itself can get a bit showy and try to appeal too much to the monster trucks and pro wrestling crowd, but the idea was an excellent one.

An eye operation that I had some years ago has more or less excluded me from full-contact sparring (a direct hit would destroy my right eye). I would love to train for and practice MMA sparring, though, even if I never set foot in the Octagon (which, even in perfect health, I probably wouldn't). I think that having to pitch your skills against anything thrown at you, standing up or on the ground, is excellent training, even if very intense.

Of course, MMA can be taken too far. Some people take the results of MMA as gospel about what works and doesn’t work on the street. They don’t notice that MMA matches are 1 v 1 on mats with a fight ending when a player taps out. Still, it comes closest to the real thing of any form of sparring.


Thank you LM. That pretty much sums up my thoughts about it. I did a search on UFC rules and regulations, and what I found was that they banned all types of hits, kicks, ect ect... that you would most definitely have to employ in the event of a fight for your life against 1+ people. But still the physicall training is extremely good (I thought).
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Postby Lord_Morningstar » Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:20 pm

SmogsFlame wrote:
I’ll come out and say that I support MMA (Mixed Martial Arts). I think that the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship) itself can get a bit showy and try to appeal too much to the monster trucks and pro wrestling crowd, but the idea was an excellent one.

An eye operation that I had some years ago has more or less excluded me from full-contact sparring (a direct hit would destroy my right eye). I would love to train for and practice MMA sparring, though, even if I never set foot in the Octagon (which, even in perfect health, I probably wouldn't). I think that having to pitch your skills against anything thrown at you, standing up or on the ground, is excellent training, even if very intense.

Of course, MMA can be taken too far. Some people take the results of MMA as gospel about what works and doesn’t work on the street. They don’t notice that MMA matches are 1 v 1 on mats with a fight ending when a player taps out. Still, it comes closest to the real thing of any form of sparring.


Thank you LM. That pretty much sums up my thoughts about it. I did a search on UFC rules and regulations, and what I found was that they banned all types of hits, kicks, ect ect... that you would most definitely have to employ in the event of a fight for your life against 1+ people. But still the physicall training is extremely good (I thought).


Here are New Jersey’s MMA rules. The relevant section is this -

(a) The following are fouls and will result in penalties if committed:
1. Butting with the head;
2. Eye gouging of any kind;
3. Biting or spitting at an opponent;
4. Hair pulling;
5. Fish hooking;
6. Groin attacks of any kind;
7. Intentionally placing a finger in any opponent’s orifice;
8. Downward pointing of elbow strikes;
9. Small joint manipulation;
10. Strikes to the spine or back of the head;
11. Heel kicks to the kidney;
12. Throat strikes of any kind;
13. Clawing, pinching, twisting the flesh or grabbing the clavicle;
14. Kicking the head of a grounded fighter;
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded fighter;
16. Stomping of a grounded fighter


I would probably be willing to use (1), (4), (8), (9) and (12) on the street, and in desperate circumstances, (2), (3) and (6). In general, unless you’re willing to face manslaughter charges, you’re probably best off avoiding things like striking the back of the head or stomping on the head of a fallen opponent anyway.

Kicks to the groin, eye gouges and other ‘dirty’ fighting techniques are actually not that easy to pull off. In addition, they’re almost impossible to train ‘live’, reducing their effectiveness. Too many people expect to be able to rely on them to win fights. There’s certainly chances to use them, but they aren’t always as decisive as many people make out.
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Postby Witchwench » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:12 am

I am so stressed out right now...

Take deep breaths, tries not to worry about something that cannot be changed.

We have our inner-school tournament tomorrow..we have 190 participants (pre-registered) and we are supposed to have a ice/snow storm starting this evening and going through Saturday (the tournament day!)

So many of our students have already made plans, so we don't want to cancel until the last possible moment, just incase mother nature pushes this further north...but that means ...what a mess, it is going to take some serious rescheduling to get the facility (where we hold the tournament) again and then our inner-schooll tournament will start bumping into other tournaments that our students are planning on attending...

AAAAaaaaaaaargh~~~ just needing to vent.

This will be a first time for this happening to us, and it is better that it is an inner-school tournament, since we will be working on rescheduling w/only our students (who will less put-out since they are all located in S. MN)instead of a massive open and trying to make contact with everyone from other states and schools... sighhhhh, okay not to worry not to worry not to worry...just keep swimming, just keep swimming...

Edit: yep we had to cancel, so it is on for 3/3 ...what a pain :P
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Postby GwenElf » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:01 pm

3/3 would be tomorrow! Didn't see your message the first time, WW, but good luck with the tournament!!! :hug: I hope the weather where you are is better than it is here. :shock:

So, I've started to learn the first "real" Bei Shaolin Kung Fu form, Lin Bo Kuen. Dunno what the first 7 I learned were... :P
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Postby Witchwench » Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:15 pm

Thanks GwenElf, everything went off without a hitch :)

We do 3 tourneys a year, 1 inner-school and 2 open tournaments, one in spring and one in fall. We have it down pretty smooth at this point, but this was a first having to cancel and reschedule..oh well, everyone pre-registered showed with the exception of two people and we got 40 more signing in at the door. Overall it was a good turn out w/a little over half our students participating. We keep our inner-school tournaments low cost and use it as a learing-tournament, they are alot of fun, relaxed atmosphere.

I don't know much about Kung Fu, but I really think the Forms are beautiful. So now what, you are learning the "traditional" forms?
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