Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby Storyteller » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:23 am

Minardil wrote:
Minardil wrote:
It's also kind of funny to see Bush being accused of withdrawing troops from Iraq


I am not "accusing" Mr. Bush of withdrawing troops, merely reminding those currently demanding action in Iraq that it isn't Mr. Obama's fault (alone) that we don't have forces there now.



More importantly, thought, the major "miss" (or rather, another monumental foreign policy screw-up which by now is routine) for the Obama administration is failing to realize that on its own, the Iraqi army is about as battleworthy as the Ukrainian one. The reason ISIS is moving so fast is because they're not encountering much opposition except from the Kurds.


So, just to be clear, you now want the US to go to war with Russia over Ukraine, and to stage a full-scale re-invasion of Iraq.

Sorry, but that is just bat-shhhh crazy.

Of course it would be, had it been something I wanted. But you are, as usual, substituting imaginary arguments in place of the uncomfortable real ones.
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby portia » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:05 pm

Storyteller wrote:
portia wrote:The core principal is that a country needs to be able to take care of its own defense. Something an Israeli--of all people-- should understand.

Except Iraq's army was supposed to be rebuilt by the US. A country whose army has recently been wrecked and hasn't been properly rebuilt can hardly be faulted for failing to defend itself.

And another principal that Israelis should understand: There are a lot of non-jews in israel who need to be remembered, or there could be a similar sitution of internal non-support.

I'm not even going to comment about the degree of ignorance about the inner workings of Israel specifically that this comment shows. The degree to which you don't understand how nations in general work is just plain astounding.

in 2011 Iraq had a chance to be stable, but not running a government for all the people does tend to undermine that chance (something the Ukrainians haven't understood, either).

As many office holders in the US (NOT all, unfortunately) have stated: "I was elected to be the (fill in the blank) of all the people."

You need to have a people first though. Has there ever been an Iraqi nation in the Westphalian sense?


The easiest way to avoid a conversation is to insult the person you do not want to discuss it with.

Hindsight is always 20/20, isn't it?. A lot of people thought that the Iraqi Army was reasonably well rebuilt. Well, they are still at it, and seeing some successes. To paraphrase a line from a movie "it may all work out in the end, and if it hasn't worked out, yet, it isn't the end, either."
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby Storyteller » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:13 am

portia wrote:The easiest way to avoid a conversation is to insult the person you do not want to discuss it with.

Well my apologies, but I was not given any substantial argument to engage, only vague generalities that indeed showed nothing but ignorance. Not to mention that you appear to dismiss pretty much anything I say on the basis of my national origin. There's a word for that approach, and it's not a nice one.

Hindsight is always 20/20, isn't it?. A lot of people thought that the Iraqi Army was reasonably well rebuilt. Well, they are still at it, and seeing some successes. To paraphrase a line from a movie "it may all work out in the end, and if it hasn't worked out, yet, it isn't the end, either."

And if you take a long enough view, you can justify just about anything.
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby portia » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:03 am

Storyteller wrote:
Hindsight is always 20/20, isn't it?. A lot of people thought that the Iraqi Army was reasonably well rebuilt. Well, they are still at it, and seeing some successes. To paraphrase a line from a movie "it may all work out in the end, and if it hasn't worked out, yet, it isn't the end, either."

And if you take a long enough view, you can justify just about anything.


History IS the long view. Nothing is forever, and if you do not like the current regime, somewhere, wait a while. One of our failings is an inability to take a long view.

By the way, Israel is in a unique position in the world, in many ways. It should not be too much of a surprise if Israelis have an unusual perspective. No need to get carried away with suspecting motives.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby The Heretic » Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:40 pm

And 45 years ago yesterday, the beloved Democrat saint, worshipped by liberals, the progressive lion of the Senate, drunkard and abuser of women, Teddy Kennedy, driving on a suspended license, left a party with Mary Jo Kopechne. Fleeing when he saw police, he drove off a bridge and managed to escape the car. But Kennedy fled the scene, leaving Kopechne behind to suffocate over the course of hours. Rather than reporting to the police, this great Democrat tried to set-up an alibi for himself. Tried to cover it up. Tried to get others to take the blame. When finally forced to fess up, got away with a slap on the wrist.
Last edited by The Heretic on Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby portia » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:01 am

Some things are relevant to the long view, and some are relevant only to the haters. The Kopechne death was relevant to that family and to Ted Kennedy, both are gone now. To whom else is it relevant? I cannot think of anyone, well maybe you, who seem to have nothing else to rant about.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby portia » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:08 am

I will post this in the Dem. thread and the Repub thread, as they both contributed.

45 years ago today, there was something that was a real part of history, in what led up to it and what has--and has not--followed. That is the Moon Landing. A lot of engineering went into it, and it had led to a lot of engineering. My Smart phone" which I cannot operate well, has, I am told a lot more computing power than everything on the moon rocket. We still need to go to other planets, but I guess they would not take me, as there are just too many pills that would have to come, too.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby Minardil » Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:11 am

Hmm, okay, now that Islamic Extremism has knocked Russian Imperialism back off the front pages, can we all agree that Mitt Romney really WAS wrong when he claimed the Russia represented the greatest threat to US National Security?

I ask this, because just a few weeks ago, Conservatives in the US were recycling that old Presidential Debate from the 2012 Campaign, where Romney claimed that Russia was our biggest threat, and President Obama answered "Mitt, the 1980's called, they want their foreign policy back", and they were doing this to show that, HEY, Romney was RIGHT ALL ALONG ABOUT RUSSIA. But now that Conservatives are screaming mad about ISIS and demanding military action against in Syria (which Pres. Obama started delivering today), while they are largely ignoring Russia, does that mean the Conservatives now recognize that Islamic Extremism is a bigger threat than Russia.\, which is what Obama said during that debate?
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby Storyteller » Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:41 am

ISIS is the new Al Qaeda, it seems. Once they are the enemy, they are the only enemy.
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby The Heretic » Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:04 am

The most open, honest, transparent administration ever...
Exclusive: 50 Spies Say ISIS Intelligence Was Cooked

It’s being called a ‘revolt’ by intelligence pros who are paid to give their honest assessment of the ISIS war—but are instead seeing their reports turned into happy talk.

More than 50 intelligence analysts working out of the U.S. military’s Central Command have formally complained that their reports on ISIS and al Qaeda’s branch in Syria were being inappropriately altered by senior officials, The Daily Beast has learned.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... ooked.html

But hey ISIS is just the JV team and all..
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby portia » Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:15 am

I am sure you could find as many "intelligence experts" who would say that the danger is overblown, but that would not be news, would it?
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby The Heretic » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:53 pm

portia wrote:I am sure you could find as many "intelligence experts" who would say that the danger is overblown, but that would not be news, would it?

Notice how cleverly the actual substance of the article is avoided.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby portia » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:50 am

The substance of the article was avoided???
Please enlighten me: what was the substance of the article?
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby The Heretic » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:02 pm

times 17.3.84 bb speech malreported africa rectify

times 19.12.83 forecasts 3 yp 4th quarter 83 misprints verify current issue

times 14.2.84 miniplenty malquoted chocolate rectify

times 3.12.83 reporting bb dayorder doubleplusungood refs unpersons rewrite fullwise upsub antefiling
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby portia » Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:09 pm

Your reply(?) makes no sense.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby The Heretic » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:59 pm

It makes perfect sense, and unlike yours was completely on point to the subject:
Winston dialled 'back numbers' on the telescreen and called for the appropriate issues of The Times, which slid out of the pneumatic tube after only a few minutes' delay. The messages he had received referred to articles or news items which for one reason or another it was thought necessary to alter, or, as the official phrase had it, to rectify. For example, it appeared from The Times of the seventeenth of March that Big Brother, in his speech of the previous day, had predicted that the South Indian front would remain quiet but that a Eurasian offensive would shortly be launched in North Africa. As it happened, the Eurasian Higher Command had launched its offensive in South India and left North Africa alone. It was therefore necessary to rewrite a paragraph of Big Brother's speech, in such a way as to make him predict the thing that had actually happened. Or again, The Times of the nineteenth of December had published the official forecasts of the output of various classes of consumption goods in the fourth quarter of 1983, which was also the sixth quarter of the Ninth Three-Year Plan. Today's issue contained a statement of the actual output, from which it appeared that the forecasts were in every instance grossly wrong. Winston's job was to rectify the original figures by making them agree with the later ones. As for the third message, it referred to a very simple error which could be set right in a couple of minutes. As short a time ago as February, the Ministry of Plenty had issued a promise (a 'categorical pledge' were the official words) that there would be no reduction of the chocolate ration during 1984. Actually, as Winston was aware, the chocolate ration was to be reduced from thirty grammes to twenty at the end of the present week. All that was needed was to substitute for the original promise a warning that it would probably be necessary to reduce the ration at some time in April.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby portia » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:59 am

No: it was not to the point.
The comments are not being altered after the fact to conform to what happened. They are being soft-pedalled before the "fact," to conform to what the higher ups are saying publically, supposedly. And, of course, the fact that some people are making those charges doesn't mean that they are true.

There was a bit on the PBS Newshour that the IG is investigating. So, it may be true that evaluations are being changed, or it could be that the evaluations are not supported by the evidence or that they are opposed by an equal number of "experts" ("intelligence experts" is an oxymoron, anyway).
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby The Heretic » Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:46 pm

portia wrote:No: it was not to the point.
The comments are not being altered after the fact to conform to what happened. They are being soft-pedalled before the "fact," to conform to what the higher ups are saying publically, supposedly. And, of course, the fact that some people are making those charges doesn't mean that they are true.

There was a bit on the PBS Newshour that the IG is investigating. So, it may be true that evaluations are being changed, or it could be that the evaluations are not supported by the evidence or that they are opposed by an equal number of "experts" ("intelligence experts" is an oxymoron, anyway).

Yes, it was to the point. You are merely indulging in hypotheticals (woulda coulda shoulda) to distract away from the fact that the analysts are reporting that their work is being altered by officials to suit the administration.
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