Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby portia » Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:38 am

The Heretic wrote:
WASHINGTON (AP) — Confronted with missteps in his own administration, President Barack Obama has frequently pleaded ignorance — suggesting he could not be at fault about things he did not know.

It’s an argument with clear benefits but also inherent risks for the White House. Used too often, the tactic emboldens critics who claim the president is incompetent, detached and not fully in control.

http://www.boston.com/2013/10/30/for-ob ... story.html


Who on Earth is claiming that? We have all heard him take responsibility.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby Minardil » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:24 am

While these problems with the website are certainly very embarrassing and maddening, when it comes down to it, they are nothing more than system integration and programming problems, which can be solved and rectified with nothing more exotic than a little time and effort. What will the Right spend their time frothing at the mouth about when the problems are fixed and the website is up and running? I imagine they'll circle back around to Benghazi, or Birtherism, or just go back to repeatedly screaming SOCIALISM at the tops of their lungs. . . . It is really quite entertaining, watching them melt down like this. . .
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby Minardil » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:34 pm

So just for fun, I went to the healthcare.gov website, to see how cludgy it is for myself.

As I type this, it is 2:59 PM in the afternoon. I started my visit at about 2:25 pm, a little over half an hour ago.

First, the website is currently up and running. I received no error messages, and it didn't crash while I was visiting. Nor did it seem to be running particularly slow. As I entered information or clicked on buttons in response to prompts from the system, the site updated without perceptible delay. Update speeds may well be slower during higher volume hours, but at least in the middle of the afternoon, it seemed to be running smoothly.

The application process begins with an "account creation" process, where you set up an account, and they send you an email with a link, from which you get back into the system. This is pretty standard for lots of websites. After that, there were a few simple questions about residency. It isn't stated specifically, but I assume this is to direct users to either their individual state sites (for those states like California that have opened their own exchanges) or to the Federal Site. Since I live in Pennsylvania and we don't have our own exchange, I was ushered on into the main Federal website.

I was asked several questions about my family, the name of my spouse, kids, where I lived, my address and phone number, etc. There were quite a few questions on how various members of my family were related to each other, including what relationships my kids had to each other. Some of these questions struck me as redundant, or circular. For example, I had to answer the question about what state I lived in twice, and I had to answer several "security" questions, and I after answering several optional questions about my ethnicity and that of my spouse and children, I had to answer questions about whether or not any of us were members of any recognized Native American tribes, which frankly had the system been paying attention to my answers to the questions about ethnicity, it would have known the answer and not needed to ask.

I was also asked if I intended to apply for any financial assistance in purchasing insurance. Since my family income was well above the cutoff level for assistance for a family of 4, I answered NO. Had I been seeking assistance, I assume there would have been a long list of questions about income in order to verify my qualifications for assistance or subsidies. But as I said, I answered NO, so I bypassed all of that, and was able to submit my application for enrollment, which wasn't an application for “insurance”, but really an application to be enrolled in the website (or something like that, I wasn’t taking notes and this might bit garbled). Anyway, I was directed to a link with my personal “eligibility statement” which was a PDF of a letter which basically said, hey, yeah, you and your wife and kids are eligible to buy insurance on the exchange.
After that, I was able to start browsing plans. They have five levels of coverage, described below:
Catastrophic (Pays less than 60% of estimated total costs of treatment)
Bronze (Pays about 60%)
Silver (Pays about 70%)
Gold (Pays about 80%)
Platinum (Pays 90% or more)

Based on the other information I had provided, I was able to compare several plans at once, just by clicking a button next to whatever level I wanted to shop in. For instance, clicking on the Silver Level plan button pulled up about 12 plans from several Pennsylvania Insurance Companies. Silver plans ran about $546 to about $850 per month, Gold plans ran about $650 to $1000 per month. To put this into context, my wife gets insurance for herself and our two kids through her employer, and pays about $700 a month. I get insurance for myself from my own employer, and I pay $160 a month. So, between the two of us we’re paying about $860 a month, for coverage I’d characterize as high level Silver, not quite Gold. Based on these numbers, the lowest cost Gold Plan I browsed on the exchange would save my family about $200 a month, and would provide slightly better coverage than we’re getting now. Note, my wife works for a small dental office, with a small employee pool, her group coverage is probably higher than most other employer based coverage owing to the small number of employees in the pool, and the fact that they are all women, who tend to have higher health care costs. My own employer does not offer coverage for dependents, only employees. I also realize that the rates offered by the browser may not be the same rates that I would get if I tried to buy one of the plans. I would not be surprised to see my actual premium payment be higher. But again, that wasn’t the point of this exercise, I wasn’t trying to sign up for insurance, I was looking to get some personal experience with the website, so I could see how fudged up it is.

My personal take away is that it didn’t seem to work all that terribly to me at all. It worked much better than the website that the Pennsylvania Dept of Transportation forces you to use to renew or update the credit card information you use to pay for your Turnpike EZ-Pass account, for example. THAT was maddening and took me an HOUR. But there were, as I said, a bunch of questions that I did not see the need for (though I’m not an insurance actuary), and there were some redundancies. AND, I didn’t actually try to finalize a purchase of a policy. Still, in about half an hour, I was able to set up an account, load much of my family’s personal information, and browse several plans. Not at all something I’d call disastrous.

I invite other posters here to try it for themselves, to form their own opinions based on their own experiences, rather than spin from either camp.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby portia » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:40 pm

Yes, Min, I agree. Social Security, Medicare, Income tax and endless numbers of computer changeovers have not gone well. No one likes that, but they are glitches and bumps in the road. A year or two onward and people will be asking what was that all about? There are STILL other glitches with the existing programs, but they have become established and people understand that there are merely issues that need to be fixed. Panic is neither necessary, nor an option.

This kind of reaction is not new; the only thing that is new is the subject that creates it. My USMC father used to joke that there was a poem written on the cover of the Navy Deck Officers' Manual:

"When in trouble
or in doubt,
run in circles,
scream and shout."

None of which does any good, of course, but it fools the participants into thinking that they are accomplishing something.

I'd like to try out my own experience, but I am on Medicare and supplements, so I have no idea if my situation would be relevant.

Mybe our own skeptics would like to try it out, and stop accepting questionable experiences from the web.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby Minardil » Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:04 pm

I make no statements or representations whatsoever with regard to whether or not my experience on the site was in any way typical, it was just my experience. And I allow that things might have gotten much cludgier had I tried to actually purchase a policy. I don't know.

But, looking at the rates I was being charged (possibly teaser rates, I know), I think it might be worth further investigation on my part. If I can really get slightly better coverage and pay slightly less, that seems like a good deal.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby The Heretic » Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:11 pm

portia wrote:Who on Earth is claiming that? We have all heard him take responsibility.

Looks to me as though it is "JOSH LEDERMAN" in an Associated Press article via the Boston Globe.

Similar to the NBC article in the same post. I think the NYT did a similar article as well.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:04 pm

Last Year President Obama Reportedly Told His Aides That He's 'Really Good At Killing People'

This will not go over well for the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize winner.

According to the new book "Double Down," in which journalists Mark Halperin and John Heilemann chronicle the 2012 presidential election, President Barack Obama told his aides that he's "really good at killing people" while discussing drone strikes.

Peter Hamby of The Washington Post noted the moment in his review of the book.

The reported claim by the commander-in-chief is as indisputable as it is grim.

Obama oversaw the 2009 surge in Afghanistan, 145 Predator drone strikes in NATO's 2011 Libya operations, the May 2011 raid that killed Osama bin Laden, and drone strikes that killed the Pakistani Taliban leader and a senior member of the Somali-based militant group al-Shabab this week.

His administration also expanded the drone war: There have been 326 drone strikes in Pakistan, 93 in Yemen, and several in Somalia under Obama, compared to a total of 52 under George Bush.

In 2011 two of those strikes killed American-born al-Qaeda propagandist Anwar al-Awlaki and his American-born, 16-year-old son within two weeks.

Under Obama U.S. drone operators began practicing "signature strikes," a tactic in which targets are chosen based on patterns of suspicious behavior and the identities of those to be killed aren't necessarily known. (The administration counts all "military-age males" in a strike zone as combatants.)

Furthermore, the disturbing trend of the "double tap" — bombing the same place in quick succession and oftenhitting first responders — has become common practice.

Obama has also embraced the expansion of capture/kill missions by Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) after it developed into the primary counterterrorism tool of the Bush administration.

One JSOC operator told investigative journalist Jeremy Scahill, author of "Dirty Wars: The World Is A Battlefield," that global operations under Obama became "harder, faster, quicker — with the full support of the White House."

Scahill, who also made a "Dirty Wars" documentary, told NBC News that Obama will "go down in history as the president who legitimized and systematized a process by which the United States asserts the right to conduct assassination operations around the world."

Needless to say, a lot of innocent people have been killed along with combatants.

So although President Obama has proven to be "really good at killing people," the demonstration has not necessarily been noble.


And yet, in 2008, it was the peace vote that helped propel him to victory. Even I thought he was better than the alternatives, first Hillary then McCain. It turns out he IS the alternatives.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby GlassHouse » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:04 am

How Insurers Are Hiding Obamacare Benefits From Their Own Customers


.....Across the country, insurance companies have sent misleading letters to consumers, trying to lock them into the companies' own, sometimes more expensive health insurance plans rather than let them shop for insurance and tax credits on the Obamacare marketplaces -- which could lead to people like Donna spending thousands more for insurance than the law intended. In some cases, mentions of the marketplace in those letters are relegated to a mere footnote, which can be easily overlooked.

The extreme lengths to which some insurance companies are going to hold on to existing customers at higher price, as the Affordable Care Act fundamentally re-orders the individual insurance market, has caught the attention of state insurance regulators.
...





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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby GlassHouse » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:06 am

GlassHouse wrote:How Insurers Are Hiding Obamacare Benefits From Their Own Customers


.....Across the country, insurance companies have sent misleading letters to consumers, trying to lock them into the companies' own, sometimes more expensive health insurance plans rather than let them shop for insurance and tax credits on the Obamacare marketplaces -- which could lead to people like Donna spending thousands more for insurance than the law intended. In some cases, mentions of the marketplace in those letters are relegated to a mere footnote, which can be easily overlooked.

The extreme lengths to which some insurance companies are going to hold on to existing customers at higher price, as the Affordable Care Act fundamentally re-orders the individual insurance market, has caught the attention of state insurance regulators.
...




Not that I don't think that insurance companies don't have our best interests at heart......(choke, cough, sputter....) Nope, can't even say that as sarcasm.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby The Heretic » Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:48 pm

Obamacare Paper, Phone, Web Apps ‘Stuck in the Same Queue,’ Memos Note

A series of internal Obama administration memos obtained exclusively by ABC News reveal for the first time how dysfunction with HealthCare.gov has upended the entire Affordable Care Act enrollment process, including applications by paper and phone that officials have been pushing as more reliable alternatives.

While President Obama and other top aides have publicly reassured frustrated consumers that they can bypass the troubled website and apply by phone in as little as 25 minutes, those working most closely with the rollout acknowledged privately that even the nonelectronic avenues would be no more efficient or guaranteed, the documents show.

“The same portal is used to determine eligibility no matter how the application is submitted (paper, online),” reads a Center for Consumer Information and Insurance Oversight memo from Oct. 11.

“The paper applications allow people to feel like they are moving forward in the process and provides another option,” it says. “At the end of the day, we are all stuck in the same queue.”


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/20 ... emos-note/

Obamacare: Memo reveals health care adviser warned W.H. was losing control 3 years ago
(CBS News) CBS News is learning the Obama administration knew of the risks associated with the Obamacare rollout well before last month.

Three years ago, a trusted Obama health care adviser warned the White House it was losing control of Obamacare. A memo obtained by CBS News said strong leadership was missing and the law's successful implementation was in jeopardy. The warnings were specific and dire -- and ignored.

David Cutler, who worked on the Obama 2008 campaign and was a valued outside health care consultant wrote this blunt memo to top White House economic adviser Larry Summers in May 2010: "I do not believe the relevant members of the administration understand the president's vision or have the capability to carry it out."

Cutler wrote no one was in charge who had any experience in complex business start-ups. He also worried basic regulations, technology and policy coordination would fail.

"You need to have people who have understanding of the political process, people who understand how to work within an administration and people who understand how to start and build a business, and unfortunately, they just didn't get all of those people together," Cutler said.


The White House dismissed these and other warnings. It relied on appointed bureaucrats and senior White House health care advisers. Fearful of constant attacks from congressional Republicans, the White House became secretive about the law's complexity and regulatory reach.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162- ... years-ago/

Obama, September 26:
"Now, this is real simple. It’s a website where you can compare and purchase affordable health insurance plans, side-by-side, the same way you shop for a plane ticket on Kayak -- (laughter) -- same way you shop for a TV on Amazon. You just go on and you start looking, and here are all the options."
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby portia » Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:33 pm

GlassHouse wrote:
GlassHouse wrote:How Insurers Are Hiding Obamacare Benefits From Their Own Customers


.....Across the country, insurance companies have sent misleading letters to consumers, trying to lock them into the companies' own, sometimes more expensive health insurance plans rather than let them shop for insurance and tax credits on the Obamacare marketplaces -- which could lead to people like Donna spending thousands more for insurance than the law intended. In some cases, mentions of the marketplace in those letters are relegated to a mere footnote, which can be easily overlooked.

The extreme lengths to which some insurance companies are going to hold on to existing customers at higher price, as the Affordable Care Act fundamentally re-orders the individual insurance market, has caught the attention of state insurance regulators.
...

Another good reason not to believe what anyone says about what is being offered by the Exchanges, unless it comes from the Exchange.




Not that I don't think that insurance companies don't have our best interests at heart......(choke, cough, sputter....) Nope, can't even say that as sarcasm.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby The Heretic » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:25 am

For years since the Affordable Care Act’s passage, President Barack Obama’s mantra has been that if people like their health insurance plans, they can keep them.

That line now includes a significant asterisk.
...
“Now, if you had one of these plans before the Affordable Care Act came into law and you really liked that plan, what we said was you can keep it if it hasn’t changed since the law passed,” he said."

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/11/b ... 99349.html

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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby portia » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:57 am

WE GET it!! If that is all you can say about the Act, give it a reast. Your have long ago become repetitive and boring.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby Jnyusa » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:57 am

I am letting my students in the health care professions have at it. It will be interesting to see how divergent their opinions are. I'll report anything interesting here, but it will take a couple weeks for them to work on their essays and discuss with one another.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby Minardil » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:08 am

portia wrote:WE GET it!! If that is all you can say about the Act, give it a reast. Your have long ago become repetitive and boring.


We all agree that the President made some sweeping generalizations about his proposed reform while he was running for office, several years before the final version of the plan was implemented, and that there are some significant deviations from his promises, at least for some small segment of the population.

Yes, some people who were buying basic coverage on the individual market have seen their policies cancelled, because their current policies did not meet the minimum standards. Some of these people will benefit from getting newer policies at lower rates, some will pay higher rates. There is no argument from any quarter that this is happening, so continued posts providing additional anecdotal evidence supporting the allegation that this is happening would seem to be rather pointless and non-contributive to this conversation. But then, making a contribution to the discussion is obviously not the intent of these posters.

Meanwhile, some insurance subscribers are being deliberately misled by their insurance companies who are taking advantage of their customers' unfamiliarity with the law and are trying to trick or dupe them into buying much more expensive coverage than the actually need, and blaming this on the law. I would like to hear what the critics of the law think of such dishonest business practices. Should these companies be fined or sanctioned in any way? Should misleading practices like this be regulated? Or is this just a case of buyer beware?
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby The Heretic » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:12 pm

Not according to CNN:
It wasn't a one off back in 2009 and 2010 and even later during his 2012 re-election campaign. New York Magazine put together a montage of the very many iterations of it.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/11/05/obama-further-refines-you-can-keep-your-plan-pledge/

Not according to the Washington Post:
Oct. 4, 2012, presidential debate: ‘If you’ve got health insurance...you keep your own insurance. You keep your own doctor.’

Sept. 25, 2013: ‘If you already have health care, you don’t have to do anything.’
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/10/31/timeline-obamas-promise-that-people-can-keep-their-insurance/

It was even debated within the administration:
One former senior administration official said that as the law was being crafted by the White House and lawmakers, some White House policy advisers objected to the breadth of Mr. Obama’s “keep your plan” promise. They were overruled by political aides, the former official said. The White House said it was unaware of the objections.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB20001424052702303843104579172002892623382
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby The Heretic » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:51 pm

WASHINGTON — The Affordable Care Act is the biggest new health care program in decades, but the Obama administration has ruled that neither the federal insurance exchange nor the federal subsidies paid to insurance companies on behalf of low-income people are “federal health care programs.”

The surprise decision, disclosed last week, exempts subsidized health insurance from a law that bans rebates, kickbacks, bribes and certain other financial arrangements in federal health programs, stripping law enforcement of a powerful tool used to fight fraud in other health care programs, like Medicare.

The main purpose of the anti-kickback law, as described by federal courts in scores of Medicare cases, is to protect patients and taxpayers against the undue influence of money on medical decisions.
...
Lawyers and law enforcement officials said Ms. Sebelius’s decision was unexpected because the insurance exchanges and subsidy payments appeared to fit the definition of federal health care programs in the anti-kickback statute.

Generally, the law makes it a crime to pay or receive anything of value in return for the referral of patients or as an inducement for people to buy goods and services reimbursed by federal health care programs. Such programs are defined broadly as “any plan or program that provides health benefits, whether directly, through insurance, or otherwise, which is funded directly, in whole or in part, by the United States government.”

“The secretary’s decision will have some very significant consequences,” said D. McCarty Thornton, former chief counsel to the inspector general at the Health and Human Services Department. “The federal anti-kickback statute will, in most cases, not apply to subsidized health plans or the items and services furnished by those plans.”
...
The federal government has forbidden the use of drug coupons in Medicare and other federal health programs, saying they amount to a classic kickback scheme, with drug companies paying consumers to use their products.

Mark Merritt, the president of the Pharmaceutical Care Management Association, which represents benefit managers like Express Scripts and CVS Caremark, expressed a similar concern. “The coupons steer consumers away from lower-cost alternatives to more expensive drugs, increasing costs to insurers and to the government,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/us/po ... ogram.html
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby ILvEowyn » Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:18 am

I see it as a minor sin, one that will cause little to no harm in the end, once the people who have been 'kicked off' their plans are by and large on better ones.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby The Heretic » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:34 am

Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. End justifies the means. Obama lying is acceptable if it means you get to decide what is best for others.

Health policy expert Bob Laszewski knows what good insurance is:

I have been in this business for 40 years. I know junk health insurance when I see it and I know "Cadillac" health insurance when I see it.

Right now I have "Cadillac" health insurance. I can access every provider in the national Blue Cross network––about every doc and hospital in America––without a referral and without higher deductibles and co-pays. I value that given my travels and my belief that who your provider is makes a big difference. Want to go to Mayo? No problem. Want to go to the Cleveland Clinic? No problem. Need to get to Queen's in Honolulu? No problem.

So, I get this letter from my health plan. It says I can't keep my current coverage because my plan isn't good enough under Obamacare rules. It tells me to go to the exchange or their website and pick a new plan before January 1 or I will lose coverage.

http://healthpolicyandmarket.blogspot.c ... rance.html

And Obama voters losing the insurance they liked, but they have a plan:
Loyal Obama Supporters, Canceled by Obamacare

Lee Hammack and his wife JoEllen Brothers thought they had a great insurance plan. Now, their cost is more than doubling to $1,300 a month, with higher out-of-pocket costs.

San Francisco architect Lee Hammack says he and his wife, JoEllen Brothers, are “cradle Democrats.” They have donated to the liberal group Organizing for America and worked the phone banks a year ago for President Obama’s re-election.

Since 1995, Hammack and Brothers have received their health coverage from Kaiser Permanente, where Brothers worked until 2009 as a dietitian and diabetes educator. “We’ve both been in very good health all of our lives – exercise, don’t smoke, drink lightly, healthy weight, no health issues, and so on,” Hammack told me.

The couple — Lee, 60, and JoEllen, 59 — have been paying $550 a month for their health coverage — a plan that offers solid coverage, not one of the skimpy plans Obama has criticized. But recently, Kaiser informed them the plan would be canceled at the end of the year because it did not meet the requirements of the Affordable Care Act. The couple would need to find another one. The cost would be around double what they pay now, but the benefits would be worse.

The reporter was skeptical...:
So I tried to find flaws in what Hammack told me. I couldn’t find any.
•The couple’s existing Kaiser plan was a good one.
•Their new options were indeed more expensive, and the benefits didn’t seem any better.
•They do not qualify for premium subsidies because they make more than four times the federal poverty level, though Hammack says not by much.

Ornstein gives details:
I asked Hammack to send me details of his current plan. It carried a $4,000 deductible per person, a $40 copay for doctor visits, a $150 emergency room visit fee and 30 percent coinsurance for hospital stays after the deductible. The out-of-pocket maximum was $5,600.

This plan was ending, Kaiser’s letters told them, because it did not meet the requirements of the Affordable Care Act. “Everything is taken care of,” the letters said. “There’s nothing you need to do.”

The letters said the couple would be enrolled in new Kaiser plans that would cost nearly $1,300 a month for the two of them (more than $15,000 a year).

And for that higher amount, what would they get? A higher deductible ($4,500), a higher out-of-pocket maximum ($6,350), higher hospital costs (40 percent of the cost) and possibly higher costs for doctor visits and drugs.

When they shopped around and looked for a different plan on California's new health insurance marketplace, Covered California, the cheapest one was $975, with hefty deductibles and copays.

Refers to Obama's bad apples speech:
In a speech in Boston last week, President Obama said those receiving cancellation letters didn’t have good insurance. “There are a number of Americans — fewer than 5 percent of Americans — who've got cut-rate plans that don’t offer real financial protection in the event of a serious illness or an accident,” he said.
...
What is going on here? Kaiser isn’t a “bad apple” insurer and this plan wasn’t “cut rate.” It seems like this is a lose-lose for the Hammacks (and a friend featured in a report last month by the public radio station KQED.)

However Hammack has a plan:
So what is Hammack going to do? If his income were to fall below four times the federal poverty level, or about $62,000 for a family of two, he would qualify for subsidies that could lower his premium cost to as low as zero. If he makes even one dollar more, he gets nothing.

That’s what he’s leaning toward — lowering his salary or shifting more money toward a retirement account and applying for a subsidy.

http://www.propublica.org/article/loyal ... -obamacare

So these people get shafted by the law they support, and their solution is to lower their income just enough so that they can make others pay for it.
====
Cornyn asks:
“Isn’t it true there is no federal requirement for navigators to undergo a criminal background check, even though they will receive personal information from the individuals they help to sign-up up for the Affordable Care Act?”
Sebelius responds:
“That is true. States could have an additional background check and other features, but it is not part of the federal requirement.”
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby Minardil » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:47 am

Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. End justifies the means. Obama lying is acceptable if it means you get to decide what is best for others.


Your concern for "honesty" might have more credibility if you were even mildly critical of the whopping lies being told by the Critics of the law. You're total silence on these lies speaks volumes. I guess you think these lies are totally acceptable if they serve your political ends?

Also, your criticisms of the ACA would have some gravitas if you were willing to offer any counter-plans. You refuse to do so, and are even insulted that anyone might assume that you have any ideas for competing plans. Again, volumes being spoken here.

Tell you what, why don't you just skip to the bit where you say "There goes Minardil, making assumptions again", and we'll all note that, as usual, you won't specify what those faulty assumptions might have been, nor will you offer anything to demonstrate that the assumptions were wrong.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby portia » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:35 am

Well, at last we get info on an actual plan, not just someone's (skewed) opinion. It would also have been helpful if the information had included HOW the plan didn't meet the Act's standards.

If they have been happy with Kaiser, good luck to them. It has had a reputation as a high cost HMO, which I wouldn't have had on a bet. But that s just me. Unfortunately, I can't compare my plan as it is a Medicare supplement with different costs.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby The Heretic » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:51 pm

Minardil wrote:
Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. End justifies the means. Obama lying is acceptable if it means you get to decide what is best for others.


Your concern for "honesty" might have more credibility if you were even mildly critical of the whopping lies being told by the Critics of the law. You're total silence on these lies speaks volumes. I guess you think these lies are totally acceptable if they serve your political ends?

You just keep guessing Minardil (who 'just wants to have a conversation'), but my comments stand on their own with out any need to follow your demands to change the subject (you've tried this tack several times in this thread, and not only with Obamacare). If you are so concerned about these other lies, you should probably address it yourself. No one is preventing you. I know it is very difficult for you to understand, but I feel no compulsion to accept your demands to address something other than what I am addressing.
Also, your criticisms of the ACA would have some gravitas if you were willing to offer any counter-plans. You refuse to do so, and are even insulted that anyone might assume that you have any ideas for competing plans. Again, volumes being spoken here.

Yes volumes on your attempt to change the subject. Smells just absolutely desperate.
Last edited by The Heretic on Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby The Heretic » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:03 pm

portia wrote:Well, at last we get info on an actual plan, not just someone's (skewed) opinion. It would also have been helpful if the information had included HOW the plan didn't meet the Act's standards.

I will remind you that much or likely most of what I have posted comes from actual news articles and Obama supporters (that, of course, does not prevent them from being skewed, the skew just tends to favor Dems and the left).
If they have been happy with Kaiser, good luck to them. It has had a reputation as a high cost HMO, which I wouldn't have had on a bet. But that s just me. Unfortunately, I can't compare my plan as it is a Medicare supplement with different costs.

Sounds like a skewed opinion. But Kaiser has done just fine by my family (including full on cancer treatments for several relatives).
Earlier I thought you said you had two separate insurance plans as well as Medicare. My dad kept his Kaiser policy until his death in his 80's, despite Medicare.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:44 pm

portia wrote:WE GET it!! If that is all you can say about the Act, give it a reast. Your have long ago become repetitive and boring.


Except those were the very promises used to sell the program.

You have made it very clear that you have no interest in holding politicians to their promises. What they tell us is not important to you, If they tell especially egregious lies we can vote them out later - which is interesting that the implementation of this act takes place in Obama's second term.

What would be nice to do, although it will never be done, is for those who supported this act to say to critics of this act:
No Obama supporter ever wrote:You know back when this act was being debated, and you criticized the act for doing this, and I called you a liar because Obama and Pelosi said it wouldn't? Well, you were right, I was wrong. I'm sorry I called you a liar, and sorry that I said the only reason you were making those criticisms is because Obama is black. Turns out the act does what you said it does.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby The Heretic » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:05 pm

And for some fact checking,
First from Minardil's favorite, the very biased Politifraud, on Obama's recent statement (which I posted about earlier):
"Now, if you have or had one of these plans before the Affordable Care Act came into law and you really liked that plan, what we said was you can keep it if it hasn’t changed since the law passed."
Even Politifalse has to rate this as Pants on Fire, and can't do any half-arsed covering.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... ould-keep/

As long as we are at the biased Politihack lets respond a little more more to Minardil's assertion:
"We all agree that the President made some sweeping generalizations about his proposed reform while he was running for office, several years before the final version of the plan was implemented, and that there are some significant deviations from his promises, at least for some small segment of the population."
Politifraud lists:
Here are the 37 instances we could find in which President Barack Obama or a top administration official said something close to, “If you like your plan, you can keep your plan,” referring to health insurance changes under the Affordable Care Act.

http://www.politifact.com/obama-like-health-care-keep/
They start with the White House website which still has it, then go into 2009 and end with four iterations in 2012 as well as one in September 2013.
So, unlike Minardil's assertion of 'some sweeping generalizations while running for office and several years before the final version of the plan was implemented' PolitiFake actually shows this being stated repeatedly until just before the Website went uh 'live', and are still there at the White House website.
I wonder how PolitiFarce would rate Minardil's statement.

And while the leftist's are trying to blame the insurance companies for people losing the plans they liked:
The approach hasn’t sat well with some Democratic allies, who are publicly and privately urging the White House to ramp up its attacks on insurers, arguing that the the tactic shored up support as they struggled to push the bill through Congress. A group of Democratic strategists pressed senior administration officials during a conference call last week.

They’d like a repeat of 2009-10, when then-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) called insurers “the villains,” Obama blasted their willingness to “bend the truth or break it,” and Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius accused them of banking excessive profits.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/11/b ... 99514.html

The Washington Post Fact Checker rates it:
The administration’s effort to pin the blame on insurance companies is a classic case of misdirection. Between 75 and 95 percent of the problem stems from the effective date, but the White House chooses to keep the focus elsewhere.
Three Pinocchios

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fac ... ost-plans/

Parenthetical:
"Obama blasted their willingness to “bend the truth or break it,”"
Bwahahahaha. Coming from a liar like him, that is just too funny, particularly when you consider his story about his mother and her insurance.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby portia » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:22 am

What the President/campaigner said before the election is totally irrelevant.
The plan had not been presented to Congress and had not been passed. What the President said before he was elected is what he wanted to do. Goody. But there is another part of the Government which people who want to blame the President for everything conveniently forget. Congress changes what the President wants into what it can get passed. If the President signs the legislation, it means it is acceptable; not what he wanted or promised.
Repeat: What the President said while he was running for office is irrelevant.
Here endeth the obviously necessary Civics lesson.

There is a habit among some people of blaming the President for everything short of Hurricanes. If that is emotionally satisfying to them, they still should not expect other people to believe it, even when they make claims that "the President" did something that was clearly done by Congress, or that is not even within the fed's power.

I have said it before, and will repeat it. If you take what a campaigning candidate says literally and expect it come to pass, you are foolish and ignorant, besides. The best you can hope for is that the candidate who is elected will make some more or less good faith effort to keep the promise, but he/she may have to give it up to get some acceptable legislation passed or to trade it for smething more vital. So endeth the supplement to the civics lesson.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby Minardil » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:43 am

If you are so concerned about these other lies, you should probably address it yourself


I have, on several occasions. And having made that point, and provided that information, I've moved on to other topics. There's a lesson in there somewhere. . . .

I know it is very difficult for you to understand, but I feel no compulsion to accept your demands to address something other than what I am addressing.


On the contrary, I understand perfectly your refusal to address these other issues. I was pointing out that this refusal (or inability) weakens your position over all, and detracts from the credibility of what ever other arguments you might wish to make.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:36 am

portia wrote:What the President/campaigner said before the election is totally irrelevant.
The plan had not been presented to Congress and had not been passed. What the President said before he was elected is what he wanted to do. Goody. But there is another part of the Government which people who want to blame the President for everything conveniently forget. Congress changes what the President wants into what it can get passed. If the President signs the legislation, it means it is acceptable; not what he wanted or promised.
Repeat: What the President said while he was running for office is irrelevant.
Here endeth the obviously necessary Civics lesson.

There is a habit among some people of blaming the President for everything short of Hurricanes. If that is emotionally satisfying to them, they still should not expect other people to believe it, even when they make claims that "the President" did something that was clearly done by Congress, or that is not even within the fed's power.


Is there any lie a politician would tell that is so egregious that you would actually say "hey, that is wrong, you lied. I don't like it that you told that lie"?
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby portia » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:01 pm

Not from a candidate, about what his/her administration will do. They do not have control enough to make such promises. After the election is a different story.
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Re: Democrats, dost thou know where thou art?

Postby ILvEowyn » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:44 am

portia wrote:Not from a candidate, about what his/her administration will do. They do not have control enough to make such promises. After the election is a different story.


I would go so far as to say it's not a problem for me that he said everyone would be able to keep their plans in 2009, when the law was being debated, because at that point he could have honestly thought/hoped it would be so. Even after the law passed though, i'd say it was a minor sin, one that will be rectified. And he has apologized for it:

Obama apology

"I am sorry that they are finding themselves in this situation based on assurances they got from me," he told NBC News in an exclusive interview.

"We've got to work hard to make sure that they know we hear them and we are going to do everything we can to deal with folks who find themselves in a tough position as a consequence of this," he added.


And again, it is not clear how many of the people losing their plans are actually losing them because of Obamacare, as opposed to losing them for some other reason.

Insurance companies appear to be doing this for a variety of reasons; some are pulling all their plans from certain states where they have fewer subscribers in order to save money.
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