Firefighters watch house burn to the ground.

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Postby RoseMorninStar » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:58 am

Private/for-profit police and fire protection (IMHO) as the norm could potentially be disastrous. Poor areas would not be serviced.. there would be no incentive. The inconsistency of a business coming & going would disrupt service. What would be in place to set standards?

I guess I could understand private fire/police protection in addition to public services but I think the instability of private only departments would be a nightmare for the insurance industry.. not to mention homeowners.

Our volunteer fire department (much like Mith outlines) has a picnic every year to raise funds. But .. they are also subject to certain regulations to meet an agreed upon set of standards.
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Postby TheEllipticalDisillusion » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:05 am

Article from 9-11 thread

Let's put to rest this garbage that this man didn't want to pay the fee. He offered at the time to pay it, but was rebuffed because then people would only pay it when their homes were on fire. He also apparently "forgot" to pay the annual fee. Is that nonsense? Don't know. Has anyone here forgotten to pay a bill before in their life? That stuff happens, and you shouldn't lose everything because of making a human mistake. We let politicians and celebrities slide on "forgetting" all sorts of crap.

Cranick, who lives outside the city limits, admits he "forgot" to pay the annual $75 fee. The county does not have a county-wide firefighting service, but South Fulton offers fire coverage to rural residents for a fee.

Cranick says he told the operator he would pay whatever is necessary to have the fire put out.


This doesn't seem to be a case of a man bucking the system then crying when misfortune hits. I just wanted to get this info into this thread since I saw some claims he "chose" not to pay the fee.
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Postby shiftenter » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:17 am

from Xhen

As usual you want to use MY tax money to subsidize fire protection for those who choose not to pay for it themselves.


Again with the self. This is not about you as an individual Xhen or your money. What many want is for all citizens to be taxed fairly to pay for the necessary functions of government. That includes the person who under this warped scenario was in the position of making a decision which could endanger many beyond his narrow piece of property. That should never be allowed to happen in the first place.
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Postby rwhen » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:23 am

Thanks TED. I wrote that in a post above, good to restate it.

Also if this is not the first year that this fee has been due, had he not paid it in prior years, it would be double or triple or even more.

The fact that it is $75 per year and he owed $75, he was late for THIS year.

I think losing everything you own and can NOT replace to fire for a late payment is just ridiculous.

Like Mith and Rose have written, where my brother lives it is very rural and considered "in the country" here but fire services are still given at no charge. I asked him today how far away the closest fire department is and he told me in the actual town of Brush Prairie, that is about 7 miles from his house.

Last year the next door neighbor "smelled" smoke. Two units showed up in full gear only to discover that it was her A/C overheating, but no fire. She was not charged for the call.

Fire is final. When a house burns to the ground there is nothing left. You can get insurance to pay to rebuild or move, but you can't replace a lifetime of personal property, photos, portraits, jewelry and such. Things handed down family to family, all gone because someone didn't get a $75 payment.

That seems like a very high price to pay for forgetting to pay a bill, which only comes once a year. It could happen to anyone.

Again, it is a question of ethics.
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Postby basil » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:25 am

Minardil wrote:I would guess it is because people who live outside the city limits don't pay city taxes. But you'd think they would arrange some deal with whatever township or county taxing authority DOES exist outside the city limits to collect fees for fire protection if the municipal FD is the only one around.


For the past 2 nights Olbermann has interviewed Cranick, the property owner.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#39528043

In this one, he reported the local FD's 5 suggestions for a financing plan to cover all the county, and that the mayor was called and he ordered the firefighters to let it burn. Cranick says that in the past the fee was waived for property owners so apparently there were other property owners who did not pay beforehand. He also states, though he's not sure, that his county taxes go into funding municipal services and equipment like fire trucks.

In our county, and I suspect this is true for most rural counties with a fairly large county seat, the biggest danger we face WRT fires is the grass fire. A few years back, we had an extended dry spell with strong south winds and several small grass fires and one big one that took out a couple dozen rural buildings. With sustained winds of 30 - 40 mph, which is not uncommon here, these fires will travel fast, and even FDs from neighboring counties will join to put them out. We also have RFDs staffed with volunteers, which have pickup-sized and smaller fire trucks.

It all depends upon conditions and chance and the locale, but when you're dealing with something which can affect a large inhabited area, and many lives, a structured system like this one in Tennessee can turn dangerous. Literally, playing with fire.

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Postby Xhen » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:27 am

shiftenter wrote:from Xhen

As usual you want to use MY tax money to subsidize fire protection for those who choose not to pay for it themselves.


Again with the self. This is not about you as an individual Xhen or your money. What many want is for all citizens to be taxed fairly to pay for the necessary functions of government. That includes the person who under this warped scenario was in the position of making a decision which could endanger many beyond his narrow piece of property. That should never be allowed to happen in the first place.


I already pay a more than fair amount of taxes but the need for statists to take more and more to fund their Utopian fantasies is endless. I pay for my fire protection in Arlington, TX through my property taxes, yet I'm also supposed to pay for fire protection in Obion County (where this took place) since voters defeated an attempt to create a fire department because they didn't want to pay the taxes for it? And I'm greedy if I don't want to do this?

Does personal responsibility ever come into play in the insatiable desire for statists to re-order society (and re-distribute income) to their satisfaction?
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Postby rwhen » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:32 am

Xhen wrote:As usual you want to use MY tax money to subsidize fire protection for those who choose not to pay for it themselves.


I always find it hard to articulate how reading this makes me feel about we as a people in this country.

Xhen you made this same argument about Health Care too.

Yes, I expect that "WE" as Americans need to take care of our own. The people who need help if they have a fire, the people who need help if they can't afford health insurance but will die without it. Yes, we need to all do what is necessary to make sure these people don't just get trampled over and lost in society.

Regardless of what our deficit is right now, people should not be ignored who need help. It is not ethical. It is not American. Better than that, it is not HUMANE.
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Postby basil » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:49 am

MithLuin wrote:When people live scattered over a large area, joint operations are often more costly than they are worth.


Good post, but your point here needs qualification, IMO. Consider the grass and forest fires in California some of which occur in sparsely populated areas. It is true, that many properties were abandoned because the firefighters could not be everywhere at once. If that "large area" you mention contains resource or property considered valuable to the nearby community, common sense would dictate measures in place for protection.

Obviously, in some places, common sense does not prevail.

:)

If you recall, Yellowstone NP suffered major fires some years ago, and essentially they let it burn, with forces positioned to save property. In cases like that, let common sense and science hold sway.

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Postby shiftenter » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:50 am

from Xhen

I already pay a more than fair amount of taxes but the need for statists to take more and more to fund their Utopian fantasies is endless.



It is sad and revealing that you consider protecting a community from fire as a Utopian fantasy.

I pay for my fire protection in Arlington, TX through my property taxes, yet I'm also supposed to pay for fire protection in Obion County (where this took place) since voters defeated an attempt to create a fire department because they didn't want to pay the taxes for it? And I'm greedy if I don't want to do this?


Who is saying that you personally mush help pay for this?



Does personal responsibility ever come into play in the insatiable desire for statists to re-order society (and re-distribute income) to their satisfaction?


So a person who believes that we are all citizens in a larger community and have established a government for common purpose is to be called a "statist"? Does that name calling give your position some extra power that it does not normally have? I am all in favor of individual responsibility. Yes indeed. I am also in favor of protecting the interests of the larger community when an individual opts not to be responsible. The larger community should not have to suffer because of the irresponsibility of another citizen.
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Postby TheEllipticalDisillusion » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:51 am

rwhen, I didn't read your post at all. Sorry for parroting your post.

Does personal responsibility ever come into play in the insatiable desire for statists to re-order society (and re-distribute income) to their satisfaction?


It does, except all of the garbage you spewed about statists and such. In the case of your taxes funding another county's FD, then you're right about their lack of personal responsibility.

======

But, shiftenter is right about this "me" society we have today. As if the notion that helping each other should be looked down upon. As if we aren't part of the same country. We need more personal responsibility today, but should resist the slide to an entirely self-centered mode of living. Both can co-exist, rather than perceiving them as one or other.

So, this Cranick guy offers to pay the fee he forgot to pay, but the firefighters refuse and let his house burn? We need to stop seeing the world in absolutes. Why sit there and watch? That is cruel. "I could help, but because of an arbitrary rule I am going to watch you lose everything, though I'll probably help the guy next door." Oh and people say we're a christian nation... wrong. From all of the garbage I learned in church, this jesus guy would never encourage this sort of "self-centered, only those who help me first" attitude.
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Postby basil » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:08 am

TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:So, this Cranick guy offers to pay the fee he forgot to pay, but the firefighters refuse and let his house burn?


per my post above, it is reported that the mayor of the town nearby specifically ordered the firefighters not to put Cranick's fire out.

The mayor sounds like a typical authoritarian, wanting to teach the rubes a lesson they'll never forget.

Like Beck on his radio show did.

It is the principle of Social Darwinism at work here. Human frailty is equated with human responsibility. Forgetting to pay a yearly fee however done is the same as "not being a responsible individual" and making the "rest of us" pay for mistakes others make.

IOW, I am not my brother's keeper.

Getting sick or having a heart attack and not being able to pay for it or not having an insurance company that will pay for it is your fault for not being shrewd enough, not paying enough attention to your personal affairs, not being responsible.

Why should I pay for your mistake?

This is contrary to our nature as human beings.

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Postby rwhen » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:12 am

basil wrote:
TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:So, this Cranick guy offers to pay the fee he forgot to pay, but the firefighters refuse and let his house burn?


per my post above, it is reported that the mayor of the town nearby specifically ordered the firefighters not to put Cranick's fire out.

The mayor sounds like a typical authoritarian, wanting to teach the rubes a lesson they'll never forget.

Like Beck on his radio show did.

b


If that Mayor has a job come next election, shame on that town.
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Postby shiftenter » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:18 am

Well put Rwhen.

If you want to see the Countdown story on this go here

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/

look on the left side and you want to click story #5 and then #4 when it is done.
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Postby basil » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:19 am

Well, let's be fair until the whole story comes out. But Cranick states in his interview last night, that Mr. Mayor was a half-mile down the road, playing golf.

Hoo wee! this thread is going like wildfire, edits all over the place!

:wink:

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Postby shiftenter » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:36 am

If you watch the two Countdown videos, it pretty much supports everything that TED has posted about this.

And please watch the video on the Countdown site about "ala carte government. Its in between #5 and #4.


An excellent summary of what is wrong with the ala carte "pay for what you use" system in the first place. A friendly warning - if you are a libertarian or right wing conservative you may experience profound discomfort in hearing your treasured ideas so thoroughly trashed and dismissed.
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Postby TheEllipticalDisillusion » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:46 am

I only repeated what rwhen posted in another thread. Just the facts.

Why should I pay for your mistake?


I love how selectively we apply this attitude in this country.
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Postby SilverScribe » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:03 pm

Minardil wrote:I think you are confusing protection against fire or theft, and financial reimbursement for loss of property resulting from fire or theft..


No, in reality I'm not. I'm actually talking about a personal choice of simply "paying" for "something". In the case of Home Insurance (dependent on policy of course), one "pays" a yearly premium and is compensated by the Insurance Company for "something", whether it's replacement of a stolen item or damage repair from someone drunkenly attempting to park their car in your living room, or whatever. ;)

In the case of the Fire Services, residents in this particular rural community are expected to "pay" for "something", the something in this case is a service, one which I agree with GandalfsMother and others, should really be covered under property/municipal/rural/whatever taxes.

I'm curious as to why voters would have voted down a Fire Department because of taxes . . . it seems somewhat short-sighted and selfish to me. *shrugs*

TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:But, shiftenter is right about this "me" society we have today. As if the notion that helping each other should be looked down upon. As if we aren't part of the same country. We need more personal responsibility today, but should resist the slide to an entirely self-centered mode of living. Both can co-exist, rather than perceiving them as one or other.


Very well said, by both parties.

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Postby basil » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:24 pm

SilverScribe wrote:I'm curious as to why voters would have voted down a Fire Department because of taxes . . . it seems somewhat short-sighted and selfish to me.


Welcome to our world, the world of your goofy neighbor to the south, where the citizenry is subjected day and night, year in and year out, for the past near 40 years or so, to the mantra that government top to bottom is inefficient, wastes money, can't do anything right, the private sector is our only salvation, and in Ronnie Reagan's famous quote:

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'

we're fools to trust in the national government.

Of which Reagan was the head.

Who put us all in the red.

In fact we have a whole network news company, NewsCorp, dedicated to this message and hundreds of talk radio jocks too.

And a so-called main stream media that rarely counters this constant and pervasive stream of anti-government propaganda.

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Postby MithLuin » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:40 pm

basil wrote:
MithLuin wrote:When people live scattered over a large area, joint operations are often more costly than they are worth.


Good post, but your point here needs qualification, IMO. Consider the grass and forest fires in California some of which occur in sparsely populated areas. It is true, that many properties were abandoned because the firefighters could not be everywhere at once. If that "large area" you mention contains resource or property considered valuable to the nearby community, common sense would dictate measures in place for protection.

Obviously, in some places, common sense does not prevail.

:)

If you recall, Yellowstone NP suffered major fires some years ago, and essentially they let it burn, with forces positioned to save property. In cases like that, let common sense and science hold sway.

b



Well, yes. I think that fire departments are important, as I hope the rest of my post demonstrated. A volunteer bucket brigade is better than nothing, but actual fire fighters with equipment and stuff can do much better.

My comment was in reference to the trash pickup. If you live in the city, you have to pay for trash removal. You can say, 'But I drive my trash to the dump myself, I don't need that service!' Doesn't matter. You pay, so the garbage trucks can go around and collect everyone's trash. If you don't put any out (don't use the service), fine, but everyone collectively pays for it.

You don't get to skip out on school taxes just because you don't have school age children in your household - everyone pays so the community can have a school.

My comment was merely that in an urban situation, most services are collective/communal, because you have so many people in such a small area. While in a rural setting, many fewer communal services make sense. City water/sewage sounds like common sense, but digging up and laying miles and miles of piping to reach remote houses would be...ridiculous. Just drill your own well and have your own sewage tank.

I think that there should be health codes in place - you can't have people living somewhere without access to water. But the gov't doesn't need to provide it; it's perfectly reasonable to drill a well on your own property. It's fine to say that everyone, everywhere should have access to services to put out fires. To suggest that the federal gov't should make this happen by building professional fire departments in places that don't have them yet? Ummm....why? There are much more reasonable alternatives. I'm pretty sure a local solution to this problem can be found, and I'm also sure that this was not it. It was a dumb decision, a bad call.

Opting out of trash collection is one thing, but who opts out of having 9-1-1 work?

When you live somewhere remote, you understand that when you dial 9-1-1, it's going to take an hour for anyone to arrive at your doorstep. And they're probably going to get lost on the way there. Does this mean that a guy working on a farm who has a heart attack dies? Well, yes, sometimes it does. Doesn't mean we should pass a law that says no one is allowed to live outside of a 20 mile radius from a hospital. But when the 9-1-1 operator says, 'Eh, tough luck,' you know you have a problem with the system.
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Postby MithLuin » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:57 pm

Xhen wrote:I pay for my fire protection in Arlington, TX through my property taxes, yet I'm also supposed to pay for fire protection in Obion County (where this took place) since voters defeated an attempt to create a fire department because they didn't want to pay the taxes for it? And I'm greedy if I don't want to do this?


shiftenter wrote:Who is saying that you personally must help pay for this?


Gandalf'sMother wrote:
Since this decision was driven by government policy and tax revenues how in the hell is this supposed to be an indictment of libertarianism?


Fire protection should be an automatic government service. Paying for it should come out of general tax revenue. If states and districts can't afford it, the federal government should subsidize it. There should not be a need to pay an additional amount for fire protection, unless one is paying for it through income or property taxes.

Also, in your scenario, what exactly obligates the private fire company to put out the fire? If the unpaid bills start racking up, what will motivate the private fire company to put out fires in poor neighborhoods?

-GM




As you can see, GM suggested federal subsidies, which would be Xhen's taxes being used to help put out this guy's fire if he doesn't pay his local fire dept. Or something. Personally, I don't see what this fight is about. Communities need to have fire departments, so they should pay for them. You can do this through taxes or through Volunteer FD or some other way, but in the end...the community contributes the money, and the community gets the service. Are some fire fighters better trained and better equipped than others? Sure. Do some respond more promptly with working equipment? Again, yes. I think it's a local issue, and if there is a problem with the system, the local people need to address it so they have better services available. There are regulations already in place, and I wouldn't be surprised if the fire fighters violated some sort of Good Samaritan law by refusing to help when needed. You can always put the fire out and sort out the money later. I mean, for all I know the guy would have lost everything anyway. Having a fire department doesn't stop houses from being burned to the ground. But, the fact that they didn't even try makes you wonder what they think being a fire fighter is even about.
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Postby basil » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:21 pm

OK, I'll do what I should've done at the first, quoted you more completely, from the paragraph in which you do discuss garbage pickup:

Mithluin wrote:When more people live close together, it makes sense to do more things jointly. When people live scattered over a large area, joint operations are often more costly than they are worth.


As I wrote, I felt that you needed to stay within the idea of your paragraph, viz., trash pickup. IMO, you went from something specific to generalized. Can't help it. I have some experience in evaluating writing.

Since you've mentioned trash, if I may relate our situation. Trash/garbage pickup is contracted by the county to a private concern, which also does "free, or single, stream" recycling, which is a concept to be spread as fast as possible far and wide.

If I don't sign up for it, I have to take my trash to the dump. This would be nearly impossible to do for a large urban area to do, although places do vary.
If the company misses my weekly pick-up, I call and they come out to get it, because it is in the contract, weekly pick-up. With the exception of holidays, then it is picked up the day or sometimes 2 after. The company supplies us with plastic bins on wheels.

But trash pick up is rarely a matter of immediate life and death like fire protection is.

You also mentioned water wells. Many rural aquifers that water wells tap into have been poisoned with nitrates from years of constant use of manufactured fertilizers. And to further this discussion of government "intrusion" into our personal lives and the operations of private companies, there's the issue of "fracking", which natural gas drillers use to extract NG from shale layers underground.

This is the one single big reason for having some sort of governmental oversight, state or even national if need be, that supposedly is neutral and supports the best interest of all.

b
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Postby Xhen » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:24 pm

As you can see, GM suggested federal subsidies, which would be Xhen's taxes being used to help put out this guy's fire if he doesn't pay his local fire dept.


This is correct. GM's typical knee-jerk response was to throw federal dollars at what is a local problem. Because the federal government has a bottomless well of money to draw from to fix everything.
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Postby SeverusSnape » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:27 pm

On all active threads right now:

Try to keep the snark to a minimum please. Remember this is a website for ALL people to post comfortably without having to be run off by unnecessary snark.

Thank you,

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Postby Gandalf'sMother » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:31 pm

If local communities cannot provide adequate fire protection to all citizens, the federal government should subsidize. Yes, that is Xhen's and my money going towards making sure poor people in double wides in states that we have no connection to, other than the fact that they are American states, have fire protection. I stand by that. We are trying to do this for Afghan towns and villages (which I support), so why not our own?

Xhen, you seemed awfully comfortable when the Bush Administration acted as if the federal government had a bottomless well of money.

Why not now?

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Postby basil » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:40 pm

MithLuin wrote:Opting out of trash collection is one thing, but who opts out of having 9-1-1 work?

When you live somewhere remote, you understand that when you dial 9-1-1, it's going to take an hour for anyone to arrive at your doorstep. And they're probably going to get lost on the way there. Does this mean that a guy working on a farm who has a heart attack dies? Well, yes, sometimes it does. Doesn't mean we should pass a law that says no one is allowed to live outside of a 20 mile radius from a hospital. But when the 9-1-1 operator says, 'Eh, tough luck,' you know you have a problem with the system.


To continue my ( snark-less ) :) comment, this is another hot issue in my county. Right now, if the city needs another ambulance, the ambulance in Partidge or Haven is required to respond, leaving the rural area without ambulance service.

If a medical service gets lost in its own county, there may be some legal recourse. Tractors do flip over and pin farmers, farmers get their limbs sucked into equipment, etc. It happens, and it can also happen in your urban or suburban backyard, if you don't have the cell on you. And as for hour-long rescues into the wilds, I can't say for sure that all places have them, but there are air medi-vac services.

It all depends upon how much we value our fellow citizens' lives, doesn't it?

You know, like what it means to be an American.

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Postby rwhen » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:47 pm

But it does happen basil. My stepfather lived in Buchanan, VA and had a massive heart attack. We had to drive him to Roanoke (about a 40 minute drive) to the hospital. He made it, but the doctors said that he was pretty much all but dead when we got him there, he was unconscious.

I do think that when someone live far out in the country, there is a risk that medical care or even fire help might come too late to help. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be available regardless.

The case in this thread is not that. The fire department showed up, to put the other home's fire out and continued to let this one burn, from what I understand of the story. The Mayor telling the fire department to allow it to burn is just plain wrong.

Also I have to wonder...does the fire department call the Mayor's office whenever there is a fire in this area and check first? I always had it in my mind that when that fire bell goes off, fire persons scramble. Maybe I have watched too much TV.
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Postby basil » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:03 pm

rwhen wrote:But it does happen basil.


Yes, I know it does. There are a lot of bonuses to living out in the boonies, but as with many things, there are deficits as well.

And yes, services can depend upon what state you live in. As the consequences one suffers when committing crime.

And too, this thread is following the usual pattern that happens here, and on other MBs too, from specific incidents to other examples and on to other types of related topics.

No matter the diligence of mods.

It really all boils down to the arguments and contentious disputes we've had ever since the 1700s.

How much of our lives do we, and should we, control as opposed to how much we should let our national, state and local governments control.

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Postby MithLuin » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:11 pm

Exactly, rwhen - sounds like local politics are heavily involved in this somehow, if they thought to call the mayor before responding. This wasn't something completely spur of the moment...which makes the actions seem that much more deliberate and callous.

Fair enough, basil - the general principle I was getting at was that collective vs. individual is different for rural vs city, not that there is no call for collective services in rural areas.


I didn't live in the wilds growing up, but it was an hour drive to the nearest hospital. We made that drive several times. Obviously, when my mom went into labor with me, my dad drove her to the hospital (though not the nearest one - her doctor worked at the one closer to downtown).

Once, I dislocated my shoulder. It popped itself back in about 40 min later, so other than enduring a tense drive with a screaming kid, no harm came of it. We didn't actually go to the hospital; I stopped screaming, and my dad turned the car around.

My father has 'pitter patters' (which probably have a more technical name that is slipping my mind), and one year at Christmas it had been like half an hour and his heart still wasn't beating correctly. So, my brothers loaded him in the car and we drove down. It fixed itself when the shock of cold air hit him on the way into the emergency room, but he still saw someone.

When I was a little girl, my grandfather had a stroke at our house. My aunt who was a doctor was also there, so she told us what to do, but it's not like she could treat him. We called the ambulance, and they arrived an hour later. It was, of course, at least a 45 minute drive to the hospital after they arrived. My grandfather survived (that time). [My grandfather was born in 1901, so he is no longer with us.]

Certainly, I know that accidents happen in rural areas all the time. A neighbor was knocked off his tractor by a tree branch and the mower ran over him. I think someone discovered him an hour later when he didn't come back from his chores. He was already dead.



Strangely enough, trips to the dump were much easier in the more urban setting where my parents found themselves later. The dump was only a 10-15 min. drive away, so it wasn't any worse than running out to the grocery store. I don't even know where the dump nearest the farm where I grew up is. Not close.

As for getting lost in your own county...counties can be quite large, and roads can be very poorly marked. For instance, our house didn't have a street number when I was a little girl - we were just 'Rural Route 1'...along with all the other houses along a couple of miles of my street. That has since changed (twice!), but a GPS/yahoomaps won't get you everywhere.
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Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:04 pm

jadeval wrote:It's all absurd. Let's hope these crazy stubborn so-called libertarians don't lead the death of us all.


After all, Libertarians are always in favor of government granted monopolies.

Here's an interesting case of fee paid and services denied. I don't see the same anti-libertarian outpouring there, even though the service provider is just as libertarian in origin.

shiftenter wrote:When even writers for the conservative National Review agree that such stories are not good for libertarianism, its obvious that there is a connection in the mind of many - and some are not the usual foes of the ideology.


Yes, it's obvious that some people desperately want to make a connection. Left libertarians don't understand what the connection is, because it isn't. Right libertairans just shake their head at the attempt because it isn't.

Xhen wrote:I repeat, how is this an indictment of libertarianism?


As is quite evident, it is not, since libertarians have nothing to do with corporatism even on the local level with government granted and protected monopolies.

Xhen wrote:I do think that the fire department should have put the fire out and then charged the homeowner the full cost...not just $75. That seems like a reasonable compromise which would deter others from opting out of paying the yearly fee until their house catches on fire.


That's a pretty good idea. Pay the $75 in advance, OR pay the full price if you request fire protection after the fact. The $75 is insurance, like other forms of insurance.

The reason to pay the $75 is because things like fire trucks, hoses, oxygen tanks, and training all cost money. Some people say that the fire department should have accept $75 on the spot, but that is a really bad idea.

Accept $75 on the spot -> nobody paying $75 until they have a fire -> the fire company having no funds -> the fire company not existing.

What I find interesting is that nobody is going to criticize this guy for thinking his home isn't even worth $75 worth of fire insurance.

If there is a libertarian aspect to it, the aspect is that he chose to not have fire protection and his choice was honored, since libertarianism does respect honoring peoples choices. Minardil nailed that part.
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Postby shiftenter » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:25 pm

cg

It would be really nice and helpful if you actually read what other people said and responded to it. Many people here have made many excellent points about this sad incident.
This is not about monopolies - regardless of who has them. But you keep insisting it is just the same no matter how many people say otherwise. I guess you have been see things through the prism of the Von Mises Institute and Lew Rockwell and to stray from that would be unwise. .

Again, you make an intentional choice to put on ideological blinders and refuse to see the actual points in this discussion. Instead we get the usual redefining of the issue, reframing of the issue, restating of the issue in terms that only make sense to you.
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