Mass shooting in Norway; bombing in Oslo.

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Mass shooting in Norway; bombing in Oslo.

Postby DeadRinger » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:43 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259356

At least 80 people dead in the shooting, and at least 7 dead in the bombing.
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Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:54 pm

The media did pretty well playing jump to conclusions.

oh my IT'S THE MOOSLIMS AGAIN!!!!!!! WORSHIPING SATAN!!!


Wait, it wasn't? Not possible......then who?

Pretty awful.The suspect had help. No question in my mind that he did all that on his own.

How soon till Norway starts profiling blond, tall, Norwegian born, Right wingers?
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Postby Jnyusa » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:32 pm

80 children shot down. oh man.

I was watching this as the first reports came in and it sounded as if they had caught the guy pretty quickly. Five wounded was the first report I heard.

Swordsman, I believe the reason they assumed it was Moslem terrorists was because there was a prior threat by al-Qeyda and one failed attempt in Oslo that al-Qeyda took credit for ... rather a man claiming revenge for some affront to Moslems took credit for it in the name of al-Qeyda. He was a Norwegian Moslem and may have been acting alone. I haven't heard all the details, obviously. They did announce immediately that this shooter appeared to be native Norwegian.

OK, if I say anything else about this it will not be rational and will probably violate the TOS.
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Postby Lee~ » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:57 am

My first horror stricken thought was, "Norway?! Why Norway?!" And I still don't have a handle on that.
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Postby Democritus » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:02 am

Lee~ wrote:My first horror stricken thought was, "Norway?! Why Norway?!" And I still don't have a handle on that.


Violent, dangerous, Christian right-wing nutjobs are not just constrained to the US unfortunately. Do these young killers take their cue from all the publicity from mass shootings by right-wingers in the US? Probably, though of course I cannot prove it to be true at this point.

A horrible, horrible business.
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Postby Lee~ » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:12 am

I think they are influenced by US nutjobs and I think they are not influenced by US nutjobs. Nutjobbery, sadly, isn't confined to one nation, one culture, one type, but some people are really good at spreading the message.

What upsets me the most is the expected lash back by Norway, the shock doctrine which is sure to follow, the fear and paranoia, increased security and loss of freedoms.. dear god, don't let it happen to them, too. :(
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Postby JewelSong » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:26 am

From the latest reports I have read, it seems that this guy acted alone. He may have been a nutjob, but nothing else is known about him - not his politics or beliefs or motivations.

It reminds me of that horrible incident in Scotland about 15 years ago, when some guy shot up a kindergarten class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre
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Postby Democritus » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:29 am

Lee~ wrote:I think they are influenced by US nutjobs and I think they are not influenced by US nutjobs. Nutjobbery, sadly, isn't confined to one nation, one culture, one type, but some people are really good at spreading the message.

What upsets me the most is the expected lash back by Norway, the shock doctrine which is sure to follow, the fear and paranoia, increased security and loss of freedoms.. dear god, don't let it happen to them, too. :(


Agreed, I suspect there is a US cultural influence there (and therefore we will see more mass shootings in countries with no such tradition of...), but there will be plenty of other non-US influences as well (most politics remain local).

Below is what is currently known about the arrested shooter:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/jul/23/norway-attacks-live-coverage

...what is known about Anders Behring Breivik, who has been arrested over yesterday's attacks.

One of the few who knew him, who have spoken so far, was an anonymous friend who told the Norwegian newspaper VG that Breivik had been a far right winger since at least his late twenties, when he had begun posting a series of controversial opinions on Facebook.

What has emerged so far paints a disturbing picture: a Christian fundamentalist with a deep hatred of multiculturalism in his country, of the left and of Muslims who had written disparagingly of prominent Norwegian politicians. A far of violent video games as well who some former neighbours have told Norwegian media had sometimes been seen in
"military-style" clothing.

In the pictures that have so far emerged of him Breivik appears well dressed, slender and clean-shaven, a picture of the young entrepreneur he wanted to be.

Breivik's businesses, however, were not much of a success, each one of them being dissolved after a short while after making a loss until he established his farm business in 2009 and moved out of Oslo.

But the man who listed Kafka and George Orwell's 1984 as his favourite books on Facebook, made little secret to the friends he had, or others on the Christian fundamentalist and far right websites that he frequented, of his racist views.

The darkest side of all was revealed not only in the killings but in how he undertook them, not least on the island teaming with several hundred teenagers, where wearing earplugs and a police uniform he calmly called over his victims to join him so he could begin his
executions.

A Freemason, reportedly a body builder and a hunter with two registered weapons – a Glock pistol and an automatic rifle - it has been Breivik's online profile that has, so far supplied the most public information.

Breivik was also a former "a youth member" of his country's conservative Progress Party – a party he criticised in one posting for embracing "multi-culturalism" and "political correctness" rather than taking an "idealistic stand". Despite that, those who knew him in the party then, described him as "calm and quiet", his extremism coming later.
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Postby Democritus » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:31 am

JewelSong wrote:From the latest reports I have read, it seems that this guy acted alone. He may have been a nutjob, but nothing else is known about him - not his politics or beliefs or motivations.

It reminds me of that horrible incident in Scotland about 15 years ago, when some guy shot up a kindergarten class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre


Actually there is quite a bit that has emerged about the killer already, see my post above yours.
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Postby JewelSong » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:54 am

Information is emerging as we speak (or as we post...)

A Twitter account attributed to Breivik by Norwegian newspaper Aftenposten has only one message, dated July 17. "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who has only interests," it says, adapting a quote from 19th-century British philosopher John Stuart Mill.


From here: http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/07 ... y.suspect/

A terrible thing for Norway and for the world.
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Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:05 am

The argument can be made with some evidence that fascist/white pride groups are a bigger problem in Scandinavia than extremest Muslim groups.

The novelist/journalist Stieg Larrson? This was his area.
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Postby Democritus » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:17 am

Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:The argument can be made with some evidence that fascist/white pride groups are a bigger problem in Scandinavia than extremest Muslim groups.

The novelist/journalist Stieg Larrson? This was his area.


Good point.
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Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:20 am

this is (to my knowledge) the first open terrorist attack perpetrated by European national conservatism/populism. The American variety already had its first blood in Tucson, Arizona, and now their friends across the pond have also produced a gunman. In this case, the social-democratic politicians and their children were the first targets.

But of course, he is a lone nutjob, and you can't say any far right political/populist group has any responsibility.
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Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:25 am

This was also nothing other then right wing terror, per usual aimed at people deemed to be Socialists. Plain and simple. The same thing that has happened for decades in Latin America.
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Postby Democritus » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:06 am

Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:This was also nothing other then right wing terror, per usual aimed at people deemed to be Socialists. Plain and simple. The same thing that has happened for decades in Latin America.


I think there is a difference between state or movement sanctioned wholesale slaughter against segments of the population (for which both the extremes of the left and right have been responsible for) and these incidences of 'lone wolf' slaughter where crazies gin up on hate and kill many innocents out of their own volition. In the latter case it has been the right that has produced the far greater amount of lone gunman nutters than it has been the left.

Religion also seems to be a common theme in these individual acts of murder as well.
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Postby vison » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:31 am

I suspect he is just a lone lunatic. And I doubt very much that the Norwegian government is going to react with the kind of twitteringly paranoid stupidity that the US has.

I have many relatives in Norway and so did my husband. My youngest son keeps in touch with them. I suppose I'll hear what "the Norwegians" have to say. That bunch, anyway.
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Postby Storyteller » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:54 am

Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:The argument can be made with some evidence that fascist/white pride groups are a bigger problem in Scandinavia than extremest Muslim groups.

The novelist/journalist Stieg Larrson? This was his area.

They're an equally big problem. Not so much in Norway as in Sweden of course. Sweden is the world's center of "White Power" culture- most "White Power" music and printed propaganda is done through Sweden because of its lax hate speech legislation- and also a major center for Islamist propaganda (mainly Egyptian MB and Algeria's Armed Islamic Group).
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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Postby Storyteller » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:07 am

vison wrote:I suspect he is just a lone lunatic. And I doubt very much that the Norwegian government is going to react with the kind of twitteringly paranoid stupidity that the US has.

I have many relatives in Norway and so did my husband. My youngest son keeps in touch with them. I suppose I'll hear what "the Norwegians" have to say. That bunch, anyway.

I actually don't think he was a lone lunatic. To plan simultaneous attacks on such a scale requires considerable tactical, logistical and technical expertise. There has to be an organization behind this guy.

It's a Norwegian 9/11, by any measure. Almost 100 dead in a nation of five million people. Bloody awful.
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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Postby ngaur » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:39 am

From what I have read there seems to have been more than one gunman on the island.
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Postby Cerin » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:55 am

Why shoot children? If your gripe is political. Children have the least to do with politics. It doesn't make sense (in the sense of, say, McVeigh targeting a government building since he had a problem with government). Were they disproportionately immigrant children, or some other recognizable demographic?
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Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:41 am

Cerin wrote:Why shoot children? If your gripe is political. Children have the least to do with politics. It doesn't make sense (in the sense of, say, McVeigh targeting a government building since he had a problem with government). Were they disproportionately immigrant children, or some other recognizable demographic?


Labor party youth. Which were being indoctrinated by what he seemed to think are "cultural Marxists" basically everything appears to be "cultural Marxism"
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Postby Storyteller » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:50 am

Cerin wrote:Why shoot children? If your gripe is political.

For the sheer shock effect. If you want to intimidate and traumatize a lot of people in a hurry, killing children is quite effective.
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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Postby Cerin » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:53 am

Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:Labor party youth. Which were being indoctrinated by what he seemed to think are "cultural Marxists" basically everything appears to be "cultural Marxism"

I see, thanks.

That is awful beyond words.
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Postby RoseMorninStar » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:01 pm

Democritus wrote:Religion also seems to be a common theme in these individual acts of murder as well.

Agreed.

I am seeing/reading more & more about extremists/right wing religious fanatics (be they Muslim or Christian). I read an article the other day about problems Japan is having with Nigerian immigrants.. specifically extremist Christians. They feel justified harming others because they are entitled to do so because the 'non-believers' deserve it. They 'deserved' the Earthquake & tsunami.. etc.. etc.. and they have no problem scamming the Japanese peoples.. of course this is not a problem for the Nigerians (evidently)?? because they are the 'righteous ones'.

I live in an area that is becoming increasingly right wing Christian extremist.. in the vein of Westboro Baptist church.. it's not nice. They are working to destroy our schools, our town and our public institutions such as the library.. they just are not using bombs.


I am disgusted by how many 'support' pages have shown up on Facebook for Anders Behring Breivik.
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Postby Democritus » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:10 pm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/23/norway-attacks-utoya-gunman

Unsurprisingly there are links between this clown and the far right UK orgs such as the English Defence League (who themselves have links to the Tea Party), each have important differences, but they are all united by a fear of moolisms invading the west and all share a dehumanising belief that all socialists are marxists who (for some reason) are happy to see Mooslisms take over and wish to indoctrinate all children in the ways of Mao.

Inevitably when the hate and paranoia reaches a certain level the guns come out...
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Postby Cerin » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:18 pm

Politics and religion do not mix well.
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Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:26 pm

As someone who deals with far right/fascist groups somewhat regularly, yea I can definitely see where support groups come from.

There are way more of them out there then you'd realize. I have family members who are borderline in them.

Apparently this guys deal isn't all that out there.

The Cultural Marxists are trying to subvert Europe in order to allow for the creation of a united and Marxist European state. Through political correctness weakining Europeans to the Islamic 'demographic invasion'. Apparently the two are working together.


If you remember Glenn Beck said that "union members" "Marxists" and "Jihadists" were working together to bring about the Caliphate. :roll:

The kids at the camp were labor party youth, Social-Democrats. But the camp was/is used by all sorts of left leaning political groups/camps in Norwegian politics.
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Postby Bombadillo » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:31 pm

I live in an area that is becoming increasingly right wing Christian extremist.. in the vein of Westboro Baptist church.. it's not nice. They are working to destroy our schools, our town and our public institutions such as the library.. they just are not using bombs.

... yet.
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Postby RoseMorninStar » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:34 pm

Bombadillo wrote:
I live in an area that is becoming increasingly right wing Christian extremist.. in the vein of Westboro Baptist church.. it's not nice. They are working to destroy our schools, our town and our public institutions such as the library.. they just are not using bombs.

... yet.
I thought (but did not type) that very same word as I made my original post...

I cannot help but wonder if they do not see the irony in this.. that they hate Muslims due to radical fundamentalism & terrorism.. and in response they choose to do the same?


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Postby vison » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:38 pm

RoseMorninStar wrote:
Bombadillo wrote:
I live in an area that is becoming increasingly right wing Christian extremist.. in the vein of Westboro Baptist church.. it's not nice. They are working to destroy our schools, our town and our public institutions such as the library.. they just are not using bombs.

... yet.
I thought (but did not type) that very same word as I made my original post...

I cannot help but wonder if they do not see the irony in this.. that they hate Muslims due to radical fundamentalism & terrorism.. and in response they choose to do the same?


But "they" haven't.
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