Rioting and looting in London - and media presentation

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Postby hamlet » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:51 pm

vison wrote:
hamlet wrote:
vison wrote:
hamlet wrote:And the people perpetrating them still need to go to jail.


It costs more to keep people in jail than to pay them welfare. And it costs VAST sums of money to charge, arrest, and prosecute them in the first place.


Nevertheless, it still needs to happen. Just because it's expensive doesn't mean you get to put off Justice. If I stole a car and then used "it's too expensive to buy one" as my defence in court, I'd get laughed right into the prison, and rightly so.


You mention "justice" as if this had anything to do with it. Charmingly naive. Punishment, maybe. Deterrence, maybe. But "justice"? Whatever.


Only if you define justice as "everybody gets what they deserve," which is a particularly naive definition of justice. I say only that these people need to be prosecuted according to the law, and only that. Not that revenge need be taken, but that the law exercised, otherwise, the law is meaningless and by extention, the society that wrote it and purports to enforce it impotent.


One could be as cynical as I sometimes am and think, "Jeez. I bet TPTB just decided to let this little party happen, let them blow off steam, and it will save money in both the short term and the long run."


Conspiracy theory material.


Oh, I'm not prone to "conspiracy theories". Not at all. I just observe what happens here and there. Try looking at it without blinders on. :)[/quote]

Vison, I've known you for years, and I can say that your last statement there would cause my vegetable garden to grow like gangbusters. :P
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Postby Storyteller » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:04 pm

Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:Every single anarchist I know did not finish college. And unless having parents at worked retail qualifies as "middle class" nowadays (it probably does somehow) then they were not middle class.

And yes, most westerners are white. hence most of the Black Bloc are white. Fascinating.


2.So you were in Toronto? How was it violent from the get go?

I wasn't in Toronto, but the perpetrators of the Ottawa Royal Bank was uploaded on youtube by the guys who did it.

First mass violence was on June 26, the first day of the conference. Which forced the police to deploy tear gas for the first time in the history of Toronto.

it got violent when the "free speech" zone got squeezed into a smaller and smaller space (kettling) And the provectours probably had a pretty good hand in the "violence" (It's pretty obvious when they get dragged away but not arrested/hit/kicked/pepper sprayed)

So, the protests weren't violent AND the violence was excuseable because the security zone was too large AND it was all the fault of police provocateurs anyway? How many more contradictions do you plan to pile up?

The "black bloc" (Known to be full of police, interesting how these same black bloc numbers swell at G20 and G8, when the same orgs are at Anti-Fa events year round and never have as many people :roll: ) They largely act as defense. You realize how many people are at these events? And how many have no idea what it's like? Yea there needs to be people there to show people how to throw a tear gas grenade. Not something a high school girl knows how to do off the bat. :roll: Or someone who knows how to protect a cameraman from police who want to break the camera. And the 40 year old unemployed machinist isn't exactly able to take many kicks from a horse.

So, they're full of police, but they're there to protect the protesters. Those of them who are NOT police somehow know how to throw a tear gas grenade- a must-have skill for non-violent protestors, apparently, even though it would make more sense for... well, a policeman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp1bjELLd8o&feature=related
Minute 4. Look at that out of control mob.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUpFInuL ... re=related
Minute 2
Minute 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XgEI5dCrE

How is one supposed to react when one is herded like cattle?

http://boingboing.net/2010/10/17/g20-to ... eviouspost

http://boingboing.net/2010/06/28/globe- ... eviouspost

http://boingboing.net/2010/06/28/canadi ... eviouspost

All the people I know who were there were IWW or other Union organizers. Either that, or they were Environmentalists/First Nations/American Indians. Or my wheelchair bound friend. he must have been terrifying for the police.

.

Your firend probably was not, but others in the crowd were.

I know the tactics of this kind of "protests" a little too well for comfort. When they turn their cameras on, when they turn them off, how they methodically instigate confrontations with the police, then turn around and cry "brutality". Because let's face it, it's violence that puts them into the news, isn't it? A protest at which no tear gas was fired won't make it onto the front page, not a chance.
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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Postby Storyteller » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:04 pm

Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:Every single anarchist I know did not finish college. And unless having parents at worked retail qualifies as "middle class" nowadays (it probably does somehow) then they were not middle class.

And yes, most westerners are white. hence most of the Black Bloc are white. Fascinating.


2.So you were in Toronto? How was it violent from the get go?

I wasn't in Toronto, but the perpetrators of the Ottawa Royal Bank was uploaded on youtube by the guys who did it.

First mass violence was on June 26, the first day of the conference. Which forced the police to deploy tear gas for the first time in the history of Toronto.

it got violent when the "free speech" zone got squeezed into a smaller and smaller space (kettling) And the provectours probably had a pretty good hand in the "violence" (It's pretty obvious when they get dragged away but not arrested/hit/kicked/pepper sprayed)

So, the protests weren't violent AND the violence was excuseable because the security zone was too large AND it was all the fault of police provocateurs anyway? How many more contradictions do you plan to pile up?

The "black bloc" (Known to be full of police, interesting how these same black bloc numbers swell at G20 and G8, when the same orgs are at Anti-Fa events year round and never have as many people :roll: ) They largely act as defense. You realize how many people are at these events? And how many have no idea what it's like? Yea there needs to be people there to show people how to throw a tear gas grenade. Not something a high school girl knows how to do off the bat. :roll: Or someone who knows how to protect a cameraman from police who want to break the camera. And the 40 year old unemployed machinist isn't exactly able to take many kicks from a horse.

So, they're full of police, but they're there to protect the protesters. Those of them who are NOT police somehow know how to throw a tear gas grenade- a must-have skill for non-violent protestors, apparently, even though it would make more sense for... well, a policeman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp1bjELLd8o&feature=related
Minute 4. Look at that out of control mob.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUpFInuL ... re=related
Minute 2
Minute 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XgEI5dCrE

How is one supposed to react when one is herded like cattle?

http://boingboing.net/2010/10/17/g20-to ... eviouspost

http://boingboing.net/2010/06/28/globe- ... eviouspost

http://boingboing.net/2010/06/28/canadi ... eviouspost

All the people I know who were there were IWW or other Union organizers. Either that, or they were Environmentalists/First Nations/American Indians. Or my wheelchair bound friend. he must have been terrifying for the police.

.

Your firend probably was not, but others in the crowd were.

I know the tactics of this kind of "protests" a little too well for comfort. When they turn their cameras on, when they turn them off, how they methodically instigate confrontations with the police, then turn around and cry "brutality". Because let's face it, it's violence that puts them into the news, isn't it? A protest at which no tear gas was fired won't make it onto the front page, not a chance.
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:27 pm

You said it was violent from the "get go" It was not. There were also MULTIPLE rallys going on. Some of which had no connection to other ones. And there were also people off doing their own thing completely separate from any group.

Some groups were squeezed into smaller spaces. This caused reactions from the crowds in question. Other groups had provecetours in them. Other groups were squeezed and had provecetours wait until things were "tight" enough to not make it look so out of left field.


The police provectours act like they are in the black bloc. They latch on at some point in the days before/day of rallies. When the crowds are that large, most people don't notice "the new guy" Who has never been to an event, and never goes to a second. In a smaller group (like a Anti-Fa rally) he would stand out like a sore thumb amongst the regulars.

And yes, self defense is a must have skill for non violent protestors. Because tear gas is indiscriminate, and is usually used even on non violent protestors. It gets aimed at teenagers, girls, women, men, older people, and having people who can react and not panic in such a situation (and know to use gloves and how to not breath it in/wear goggles) are useful.


I know how police work at these things a little too well for comfort. They start problems, because that allows them to make arrests, and make it so the media completely ignores any message the protestors had, and just focus on them being "out of control thugs"
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Postby vison » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:04 pm

hamlet wrote: . . . . the law is meaningless and by extention, the society that wrote it and purports to enforce it impotent.


Yes.
GM is alive.

Osama bin Laden is dead.
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Postby Storyteller » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:41 pm

Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:You said it was violent from the "get go" It was not. There were also MULTIPLE rallys going on. Some of which had no connection to other ones. And there were also people off doing their own thing completely separate from any group.

Sure there were. But the police has to work on worst case scenarios. It's the nature of the job.

Some groups were squeezed into smaller spaces. This caused reactions from the crowds in question.

Do you realize just how absurd an excuse it is? "Squeezed into smaller spaces"? Was Canada too small for them?

Other groups had provecetours in them. Other groups were squeezed and had provecetours wait until things were "tight" enough to not make it look so out of left field.

The police provectours act like they are in the black bloc. They latch on at some point in the days before/day of rallies. When the crowds are that large, most people don't notice "the new guy" Who has never been to an event, and never goes to a second. In a smaller group (like a Anti-Fa rally) he would stand out like a sore thumb amongst the regulars.

Again, yes, but so what? This is a well-known tactic that helps the police learn about the group and go straight for the leaders of the riot once the riot starts. But you appear to be suggesting that the infltrators were responsible for most of the violence, and that requires factual support.

And yes, self defense is a must have skill for non violent protestors. Because tear gas is indiscriminate, and is usually used even on non violent protestors. It gets aimed at teenagers, girls, women, men, older people, and having people who can react and not panic in such a situation (and know to use gloves and how to not breath it in/wear goggles) are useful.

Oh give it up. They're not there for self-defence. The Black Bloc is the riot muscle. They don't make those Molotov cocktails on the spot because police has gotten violent; they bring them from home because they plan to get violent themselves. They initiate melee with the police to break through cordons separating them from the events they seek to disrupt, they when they take a truncheon over the head they cry "police brutality".
Last edited by Storyteller on Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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Postby hamlet » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:26 am

vison wrote:
hamlet wrote: . . . . the law is meaningless and by extention, the society that wrote it and purports to enforce it impotent.


Yes.


And so you're an anarchist now?
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Postby Democritus » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:54 am

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Postby Democritus » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:22 pm

Excellent article by a Tory writing for the Torygraph...

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/#dsq-content

Nearly every paragraph a gem:

David Cameron, Ed Miliband and the entire British political class came together yesterday to denounce the rioters. They were of course right to say that the actions of these looters, arsonists and muggers were abhorrent and criminal, and that the police should be given more support.

But there was also something very phony and hypocritical about all the shock and outrage expressed in parliament. MPs spoke about the week’s dreadful events as if they were nothing to do with them.

I cannot accept that this is the case. Indeed, I believe that the criminality in our streets cannot be dissociated from the moral disintegration in the highest ranks of modern British society. The last two decades have seen a terrifying decline in standards among the British governing elite. It has become acceptable for our politicians to lie and to cheat. An almost universal culture of selfishness and greed has grown up.

It is not just the feral youth of Tottenham who have forgotten they have duties as well as rights. So have the feral rich of Chelsea and Kensington. A few years ago, my wife and I went to a dinner party in a large house in west London. A security guard prowled along the street outside, and there was much talk of the “north-south divide”, which I took literally for a while until I realised that my hosts were facetiously referring to the difference between those who lived north and south of Kensington High Street.

Most of the people in this very expensive street were every bit as deracinated and cut off from the rest of Britain as the young, unemployed men and women who have caused such terrible damage over the last few days. For them, the repellent Financial Times magazine How to Spend It is a bible. I’d guess that few of them bother to pay British tax if they can avoid it, and that fewer still feel the sense of obligation to society that only a few decades ago came naturally to the wealthy and better off.

Yet we celebrate people who live empty lives like this. A few weeks ago, I noticed an item in a newspaper saying that the business tycoon Sir Richard Branson was thinking of moving his headquarters to Switzerland. This move was represented as a potential blow to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, because it meant less tax revenue.

I couldn’t help thinking that in a sane and decent world such a move would be a blow to Sir Richard, not the Chancellor. People would note that a prominent and wealthy businessman was avoiding British tax and think less of him. Instead, he has a knighthood and is widely feted. The same is true of the brilliant retailer Sir Philip Green. Sir Philip’s businesses could never survive but for Britain’s famous social and political stability, our transport system to shift his goods and our schools to educate his workers.

Yet Sir Philip, who a few years ago sent an extraordinary £1 billion dividend offshore, seems to have little intention of paying for much of this. Why does nobody get angry or hold him culpable? I know that he employs expensive tax lawyers and that everything he does is legal, but he surely faces ethical and moral questions just as much as does a young thug who breaks into one of Sir Philip’s shops and steals from it?

Our politicians – standing sanctimoniously on their hind legs in the Commons yesterday – are just as bad. They have shown themselves prepared to ignore common decency and, in some cases, to break the law. David Cameron is happy to have some of the worst offenders in his Cabinet. Take the example of Francis Maude, who is charged with tackling public sector waste – which trade unions say is a euphemism for waging war on low‑paid workers. Yet Mr Maude made tens of thousands of pounds by breaching the spirit, though not the law, surrounding MPs’ allowances.

A great deal has been made over the past few days of the greed of the rioters for consumer goods, not least by Rotherham MP Denis MacShane who accurately remarked, “What the looters wanted was for a few minutes to enter the world of Sloane Street consumption.” This from a man who notoriously claimed £5,900 for eight laptops. Of course, as an MP he obtained these laptops legally through his expenses.

Yesterday, the veteran Labour MP Gerald Kaufman asked the Prime Minister to consider how these rioters can be “reclaimed” by society. Yes, this is indeed the same Gerald Kaufman who submitted a claim for three months’ expenses totalling £14,301.60, which included £8,865 for a Bang & Olufsen television.

Or take the Salford MP Hazel Blears, who has been loudly calling for draconian action against the looters. I find it very hard to make any kind of ethical distinction between Blears’s expense cheating and tax avoidance, and the straight robbery carried out by the looters.

The Prime Minister showed no sign that he understood that something stank about yesterday’s Commons debate. He spoke of morality, but only as something which applies to the very poor: “We will restore a stronger sense of morality and responsibility – in every town, in every street and in every estate.” He appeared not to grasp that this should apply to the rich and powerful as well.

The tragic truth is that Mr Cameron is himself guilty of failing this test. It is scarcely six weeks since he jauntily turned up at the News International summer party, even though the media group was at the time subject to not one but two police investigations. Even more notoriously, he awarded a senior Downing Street job to the former News of the World editor Andy Coulson, even though he knew at the time that Coulson had resigned after criminal acts were committed under his editorship. The Prime Minister excused his wretched judgment by proclaiming that “everybody deserves a second chance”. It was very telling yesterday that he did not talk of second chances as he pledged exemplary punishment for the rioters and looters.

These double standards from Downing Street are symptomatic of widespread double standards at the very top of our society. It should be stressed that most people (including, I know, Telegraph readers) continue to believe in honesty, decency, hard work, and putting back into society at least as much as they take out.

But there are those who do not. Certainly, the so-called feral youth seem oblivious to decency and morality. But so are the venal rich and powerful – too many of our bankers, footballers, wealthy businessmen and politicians.

Of course, most of them are smart and wealthy enough to make sure that they obey the law. That cannot be said of the sad young men and women, without hope or aspiration, who have caused such mayhem and chaos over the past few days. But the rioters have this defence: they are just following the example set by senior and respected figures in society. Let’s bear in mind that many of the youths in our inner cities have never been trained in decent values. All they have ever known is barbarism. Our politicians and bankers, in sharp contrast, tend to have been to good schools and universities and to have been given every opportunity in life.

Something has gone horribly wrong in Britain. If we are ever to confront the problems which have been exposed in the past week, it is essential to bear in mind that they do not only exist in inner-city housing estates.

The culture of greed and impunity we are witnessing on our TV screens stretches right up into corporate boardrooms and the Cabinet. It embraces the police and large parts of our media. It is not just its damaged youth, but Britain itself that needs a moral reformation.


Best of the comments below the article:

Bent politicians, bent police, bent newspapermen, and bankers so bent they resemble a corkscrew.

And yet, unemployed youths from dodgy council estates are supposed to be shining white paragons of moral rectitude.

Ain't likely.
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Postby Aravar » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:20 am

I'd recommend Oborne's The rise of Political Lying and the Political Class which deals in depth with the problems at the top.
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Postby Democritus » Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:23 am

Aravar wrote:I'd recommend Oborne's The rise of Political Lying and the Political Class which deals in depth with the problems at the top.


I'd second that, excellent book.
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Postby portia » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:33 am

Maybe all those oft-lamented CCTV cameras in the UK will be put to some good use identifying and rounding up people who were NOT peacefully protesting.
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Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:32 am

There is an obvious "package" of changes that can be made to solve this problem, and prevent it ever happening again.

1. Ban Islam. Obvious.
2. Ban hoodies.
3. Ban Twitter.
4. Ban Facebook (or have some sort of complicated process were you apply for a "Facebook Permit" your age, gender, race, home town/residence, political affiliation, voting history employment status, and personal wealth are all taken into consideration.)
5. Have a new tithe, 5% of everyone's income in the future is sent to the BNP. They are the only ones who can save the world from such threats.
6. Pray to the market. It can also save us. Sacrifice the arrested on it's altar. Destroy mosques/catholic churches and build Market temples on their ruins. May you be trickled down upon.
7. Put CCTV in the homes of everyone who makes less then a certain income (Six figures?)
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Postby Storyteller » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:07 am

Brendan O'Neill from Spiked Online observes more or less what I've said before- the London looters stand for nothing good; they just want their society to burn:

Many commentators are on a mission to contextualise the riots that have swept parts of urban London and other British cities. ‘It’s very naive to look at these riots without the context’, says one journalist, who says the reason the violence kicked off in the London suburb of Tottenham is because ‘that area is getting 75% cuts [in public services]’. Others have said that the political context for the rioting is youth unemployment or working-class anger at David Cameron’s cuts agenda. ‘There is a context to London’s riots that can’t be ignored’, said a writer for the Guardian, and it is the ‘backdrop of brutal cuts and enforced austerity measures’. The ‘mass unrest’ is a protest against unhinged capitalism, apparently.

there is a political context to the riots. They are right to argue that while the police shooting of young black man Mark Duggan may ostensibly have been the trigger for the street violence, there is a broader context to the disturbances. But they are wrong about what the political context is. Painting these riots as some kind of action replay of historic political streetfights against capitalist bosses or racist cops might allow armchair radicals to get their intellectual rocks off, as they lift their noses from dusty tomes about the Levellers or the Suffragettes and fantasise that a political upheaval of equal worth is now occurring outside their windows. But such shameless projection misses what is new and peculiar and deeply worrying about these riots. The political context is not the cuts agenda or racist policing – it is the welfare state, which, it is now clear, has nurtured a new generation that has absolutely no sense of community spirit or social solidarity.

What we have on the streets of London and elsewhere are welfare-state mobs. The youth who are ‘rising up’ – actually they are simply shattering their own communities – represent a generation that has been more suckled by the state than any generation before it. They live in those urban territories where the sharp-elbowed intrusion of the welfare state over the past 30 years has pushed aside older ideals of self-reliance and community spirit. The march of the welfare state into every aspect of less well-off urban people’s existences, from their financial wellbeing to their childrearing habits and even into their emotional lives, with the rise of therapeutic welfarism designed to ensure that the poor remain ‘mentally fit’, has helped to undermine such things as individual resourcefulness and social bonding. The anti-social youthful rioters look to me like the end product of such an anti-social system of state intervention.

The most striking thing about the rioters is how little they seem to care for their own communities. You don’t have to be a right-winger with helmet hair and a niggling discomfort with black or chavvy yoof (I am the opposite of that) to recognise that this violence is not political, just criminal. It is entertaining to watch the political contortionism of those commentators who claim that the riots are an uprising against the evils of capitalism, as they struggle to explain why the targets thus far have been Foot Locker sports shops, electrical goods shops, takeaway joints and bus-stops, and why the only ‘gains’ made by the rioters have been to get a new pair of trainers or an Apple laptop. In past episodes of rioting, for example during the Brixton race riots of 1981, looting and the destruction of local infrastructure were largely incidental to the broader expression of political anger, byproducts of the main show, which was a clash between a community and the forces of the state. But in these new riots, smashing stuff up is all there is. It is childish nihilism.

Many older members of the urban communities rocked by violence have been shocked by the level of self-destruction exhibited by the rioters. Some shop-owners have got together to defend their property, even beating up rioters who have turned up with iron bars. In one video doing the rounds on social-networking sites, a West Indian woman in her fifties braves the rubble-strewn streets to lecture the rioters: ‘These people worked hard to make their businesses work and you lot wanna go and burn it up. For what?’ On Twitter, the hashtag #riotcleanup is being used by community members to coordinate some post-riot street-cleaning, to make amends for what one elderly Tottenham resident described as ‘the stupid behaviour of the young’.

But it’s more than childish destructiveness motivating the rioters. At a more fundamental level, these are youngsters who are uniquely alienated from the communities they grew up in. Nurtured in large part by the welfare state, financially, physically and educationally, socialised more by the agents of welfarism than by their own neighbours or community representatives, these youth have little moral or emotional attachment to the areas they grew up in. Their rioting reveals, not that Britain is in a time warp back to 1981 or 1985 when there were politically motivated, anti-racist riots against the police, but rather that the tentacle-like spread of the welfare state into every area of people’s lives has utterly zapped old social bonds, the relationship of sharing and solidarity that once existed in working-class communities. In communities that are made dependent upon the state, people are less inclined to depend on each other or on their own social wherewithal. We have a saying in Britain for people who undermine their own living quarters – we call it ‘pickle jars on your own doorstep’. And this rioting suggests that the welfare state has given rise to a generation perfectly happy to do that.

This is not a political rebellion; it is a mollycoddled mob, a riotous expression of carelessness for one’s own community. And as a left-winger, I refuse to celebrate nihilistic behaviour that has a profoundly negative impact on working people’s lives. Far from being an instance of working-class action, the welfare-state mob has more in common with what Marx described as the lumpenproletariat. Indeed, it is worth recalling Marx’s colourful description in The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon of how that French ruler cynically built his power base amongst parts of the bourgeoisie and sections of the lumpenproletariat, so that ‘ruined and adventurous offshoots of the bourgeoisie rubbed shoulders with vagabonds, discharged soldiers, discharged jailbirds, swindlers, pickpockets, tricksters, gamblers, brothel-keepers, organ-grinders, ragpickers, knife-grinders, tinkers, beggars… and from this kindred element Boneparte formed the core of his [constituency], where all its members felt the need to benefit themselves at the expense of the labouring nation.’ In very different circumstances, we have something similar today – when the decadent commentariat’s siding with lumpen rioters represents a weird coming together of sections of the bourgeoisie with sections of the underworked and the over-flattered, as the rest of us, ‘the labouring nation’, look on with disdain.

There is one more important part to this story: the reaction of the cops. Their inability to handle the riots effectively reveals the extent to which the British police are far better adapted to consensual policing than conflictual policing. It also demonstrates how far they have been paralysed in our era of the politics of victimhood, where virtually no police activity fails to get followed up by a complaint or a legal case. Their kid-glove approach to the rioters of course only fuels the riots, because as one observer put it, when the rioters ‘see that the police cannot control the situation, [that] leads to a sort of adrenalin-fuelled euphoria’. So this street violence was largely ignited by the excesses of the welfare state and was then intensified by the discombobulation of the police state. In this sense, it reveals something very telling, and quite depressing, about modern Britain.






When I visited Britain a few years ago, I was somewhat shocked by the prominent warning signs on the walls inside Manchester airport along the lines of "Attacking the airport staff is punishable by X years in jail". I was even more shocked to see similar signs at train stations warning against assaulting their workers. There were more signs in the streets warning against assaulting ambulance crews etc. I have never seen anything remotely like that in any other country I've ever visited. Then I was told that one does not set foot in this area and that area after dark, and in the Liverpool Chinatown at any time of the day. So I can't say I am terribly surprised by the violence and the looting.
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Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:30 am

Thats one of the "Climate change is a socialist conspiracy" magazines isn't it? Aren't they also on the "keep our Europe pure" bandwagon? :roll:
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Postby Storyteller » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:08 am

Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:Thats one of the "Climate change is a socialist conspiracy" magazines isn't it? Aren't they also on the "keep our Europe pure" bandwagon? :roll:

Uh, no. Spiked was formely known as Living Marxism. Most of their writers were co-founders and theoreticians of Britain's Revolutionary Communist Party in the 70-s.

Edit- Here you go, Swordy.
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Postby MerriadocBrandybuck » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:28 pm

The new London 2012 Olympic logo...

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Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:36 pm

My bad, had it confused with some other internet tabloid
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Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:38 pm

MerriadocBrandybuck wrote:The new London 2012 Olympic logo...

Image



Oh don't worry. The streets will be cleared of undesirables in time for the show.

You know, removing Tibetan flags, anti-Jewish signs, homeless, the IOC is great at picking places. (Berlin vs Barcelona in 1936 springs to mind)
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Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:06 pm

After skirting around the issue for years, David Starkey has finally outed himself as a good ol' fashioned racist.

Historian David Starkey has told BBC's Newsnight ''the whites have become black'' in a discussion on the England riots with author and broadcaster Dreda Say Mitchell and the author of Chavs, Owen Jones. He also hit out at what he called the ''destructive, nihilistic gangster culture'' which he said ''has become the fashion.''



Expect more overt racism to become 100% acceptable in the days to come. Put in a blender with the "multiculturalism is evil" spew from the mouths of old white men.
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Postby vison » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:24 pm

Leaving aside any mention of skin colour or ethnic origin, I can say that this:
He also hit out at what he called the ''destructive, nihilistic gangster culture'' which he said ''has become the fashion.''
is quite spot on.

I don't know many black kids, but I know a lot of white kids and brown kids of various sorts, and the "gangsta" culture is a fad, for sure.

Now, I'm talking ordinary working class and middle class Canadian kids. Nobody else. Has it led to riots in the streets of Abbotsford? No. But I suspect the Vancouver hockey riot had a number of gangsta-wannabes poncing about smashing things.

I truly don't think this is a "racial" issue, just IN PART (please notice IN PART) kids who like to bust things up for fun.

The more serious underlying issues may well be there, but it's hard to see the forest for the trees.


(And, just by the way, I thought the Canadian government's overkill on security for the Toronto G20 and G8 meetings was APPALLING.)
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Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:39 pm

vison wrote:Leaving aside any mention of skin colour or ethnic origin, I can say that this:
He also hit out at what he called the ''destructive, nihilistic gangster culture'' which he said ''has become the fashion.''
is quite spot on.

I don't know many black kids, but I know a lot of white kids and brown kids of various sorts, and the "gangsta" culture is a fad, for sure.

Now, I'm talking ordinary working class and middle class Canadian kids. Nobody else. Has it led to riots in the streets of Abbotsford? No. But I suspect the Vancouver hockey riot had a number of gangsta-wannabes poncing about smashing things.

I truly don't think this is a "racial" issue, just IN PART (please notice IN PART) kids who like to bust things up for fun.

The more serious underlying issues may well be there, but it's hard to see the forest for the trees.


(And, just by the way, I thought the Canadian government's overkill on security for the Toronto G20 and G8 meetings was APPALLING.)


When people attack "gangster" culture it is an attack on blacks, just without saying so. Because that is where it comes from, black urban culture. (and is a ridiculous stereotype, not every black/urban person acts like that in the slightest, they all happen to on TV and in movies though, even if it's an uplifting movie about troubled teens, that's how the whole school is :roll: ) It's like saying someone is "acting Jewish" if they are not Jewish. You don't mean it in a positive way.


And even if they follow this culture, so what? it's their culture. It makes those outside of it uncomfortable, cry me a river and get over it. I can base "red neck" culture on what I see on the History channel, and how my future brother in law and his friends act (homophobic, racist, and they all play World of Warcraft and stupid tabletop war games all day)


And I still fail to see how that culture is anymore destructive and nihilistic then "Warmongers from the Hamptons" culture. And those are the people who run the country.
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Postby oldtoby » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:42 pm

stupid tabletop war games


Some are pretty good :P
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Postby RoseMorninStar » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:50 pm

I was in the Manchester airport 2 1/2 years ago & I don't recall seeing signs like that Storyteller. I'm not saying they aren't there, but I don't recall seeing such things 'prominently displayed'. I was also to Chinatown in Liverpool and did not find it a violent or dangerous area. My daughter & her friends (high school students at the time) walked all over that area & were not given any type of warnings not to go into specific areas of the city. They were not supposed to go anywhere alone, but that was ANYWHERE on the entire trip. Wise advice almost anywhere in the world, especially if you are not familiar with the area.
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Postby Frelga » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:48 pm

Rose, I saw the do not attack train workers posters at a Train station (Paddington?) in London some four years ago, complete with photos of presumably such workers with black eyes and other injuries. Have to say, it made me :Q. "Do not attack the conductor, it's a crime." No joke, Sherlock?

I never felt personally threatened while in England. Then again, I managed to walk safely through downtown Oakland back when it was definitely not a safe area. Same part of it that was the scene of Oscar Grant riots last year. Now that was a case in point if there is one.
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Postby RoseMorninStar » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:24 pm

Frelga wrote:Rose, I saw the do not attack train workers posters at a Train station (Paddington?) in London some four years ago, complete with photos of presumably such workers with black eyes and other injuries. Have to say, it made me :Q. "Do not attack the conductor, it's a crime." No joke, Sherlock?
Like I said.. I'm not saying they aren't there. I was chaperoning a group of 60 High school students.. so I was preoccupied and perhaps did not notice them :P If I did.. I probably didn't think any more of them than the 'Higher fines in Construction areas' or '$10,000 fine for hitting roadworkers' signs they have around here.


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Postby vison » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:36 pm

When people attack "gangster" culture it is an attack on blacks, just without saying so.


Bollocks.

Sheer, utter, rampageous bollocks.

You and I can march along the same road for quite a ways, Swordsman, but when you make such a remark, we part company.

Racism is racism, whether frontward or backward. You do not speak for all black people, you speak only for yourself. Don't take on a burden that isn't yours - that's the worst kind of condescending . . . um . . . bollocks. :)
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Postby Storyteller » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:40 pm

RoseMorninStar wrote:I was in the Manchester airport 2 1/2 years ago & I don't recall seeing signs like that Storyteller. I'm not saying they aren't there, but I don't recall seeing such things 'prominently displayed'.

It takes up a fairly big chunk of the wall near the passport control area.

I was also to Chinatown in Liverpool and did not find it a violent or dangerous area.

My British friend who lives in that area said that only the entrance to the Chinatown, immediately behind the fancy arch and where all the restaurants are, is safe. She refused to let me go past that part; we just took a brief glance, enough for me to see that street signs were in Chinese.
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Postby Lord_Morningstar » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:58 pm

vison wrote:
When people attack "gangster" culture it is an attack on blacks, just without saying so.


Bollocks.

Sheer, utter, rampageous bollocks.

You and I can march along the same road for quite a ways, Swordsman, but when you make such a remark, we part company.

Racism is racism, whether frontward or backward. You do not speak for all black people, you speak only for yourself. Don't take on a burden that isn't yours - that's the worst kind of condescending . . . um . . . bollocks. :)


Yeah, I have to admit that I did a bit of a double take at the 'being black is so tied up with violent and anti-social behaviour that you can't attack one without attacking the other' point as well...
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Postby Storyteller » Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:29 am

Iran is still at it:

'Iran ready to send HR examiners to UK'

A senior Iranian lawmaker says Iran's Majlis (parliament) is ready to send a group of human rights rapporteurs to the UK to investigate human rights violations in the country.


Deputy head of Iran's Majlis (parliament) National Security and Foreign Policy Commission Hossein Ebrahimi made the comment in an interview with Fars news agency on Tuesday.

He referred to the large arrests of British protesters angry over the killing of a black man by the police and said, Iran's Majlis urges the British government and the UK embassy in Tehran to facilitate the visit without making false excuses.

Ebrahimi said that the group of rapporteurs intend to interview political detainees and to give a report to international bodies on the treatment received by the protesters.

The unrest in the UK erupted on Saturday when a few hundred people gathered outside a police station in Tottenham to protest against the fatal shooting of Mark Duggan on Thursday.

The protesters also set a bus and buildings on fire on High Road and broke many shop windows.

Turmoil is now threatening to sweep across all of Britain as the mayhem and looting has also spread to the central city of Birmingham, the western city of Bristol, the northwestern city of Liverpool, and south London neighborhood of Brixton.

Police said they have arrested more than 200 people since the unrest began.

Iran's Foreign Ministry Spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast also called on the British police to exercise restraint against protesters.

Mehmanparast asked the British government to start dialogue with the protesters and to listen to their demands in order to calm the situation down.

He also asked independent human rights organizations to investigate the killing in order to protect the civil rights and civil liberties.
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