Building Your Own Country

Manwë was known for many things, but wisdom and power are two that lead the rest of his attributes. Join the Councils and discuss the more weighty matters of Tolkien Fandom.

Building Your Own Country

Postby hamlet » Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:14 am

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/silicon-valley-billionaire-funding-creation-artificial-libertarian-islands-140840896.html

An amusing little article, I find. A privately funded group wants to build their own artificial island as a libertarian paradise.

I think that's a wonderful idea, if as nothing other than a small time real world experiment.

Honestly, I'd love to see something akin to it as a green settlement. All energy produced via solar/wind/tidal/whatever, sustainable food harvesting, etc.

This kind of thing might be an interesting test bed for new technologies and new social programs, and a way for "yer average Joe" to take part in it.
User avatar
hamlet
Ringbearer
 
Posts: 10562
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 12:01 pm
Top

Postby portia » Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:44 am

"Utopias" are nearly always interesting, even when (not if) they ultimately fail.

A green island would also be interesting, especially as it would be possible to isolate it from non-green influences and get a pretty good test of the green technology.
User avatar
portia
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 10841
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:57 pm
Location: Lost in the forest
Top

Postby hamlet » Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:46 am

portia wrote:"Utopias" are nearly always interesting, even when (not if) they ultimately fail.

A green island would also be interesting, especially as it would be possible to isolate it from non-green influences and get a pretty good test of the green technology.


At the very least, utopias are educative. Illuminative. Ellucidative.

Doubt that last one is even a word.
User avatar
hamlet
Ringbearer
 
Posts: 10562
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 12:01 pm
Top

Postby vison » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:11 am

It is, but it only has one "l". 8)

A Libertarian Utopia wouldn't last as long as a Regular Person's Utopia. Jeez. Imagine a whole wee colony of guyz like our resident Libertarian!! I mean, my mind won't go there.

It sure as heck would be nothing like the one in Atlas Shrugged, I can tell you that!!!
GM is alive.

Osama bin Laden is dead.
User avatar
vison
Ringbearer


 
Posts: 12696
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:15 pm
Top

Postby hamlet » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:15 am

vison wrote:It is, but it only has one "l". 8)

A Libertarian Utopia wouldn't last as long as a Regular Person's Utopia. Jeez. Imagine a whole wee colony of guyz like our resident Libertarian!! I mean, my mind won't go there.

It sure as heck would be nothing like the one in Atlas Shrugged, I can tell you that!!!


Ayn Rand is/was? and Objectivist. NOT a Libertarian. The two ideologies are not wholly, or even majoritively, compatible.
User avatar
hamlet
Ringbearer
 
Posts: 10562
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 12:01 pm
Top

Postby vison » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:30 am

hamlet wrote:
vison wrote:It is, but it only has one "l". 8)

A Libertarian Utopia wouldn't last as long as a Regular Person's Utopia. Jeez. Imagine a whole wee colony of guyz like our resident Libertarian!! I mean, my mind won't go there.

It sure as heck would be nothing like the one in Atlas Shrugged, I can tell you that!!!


Ayn Rand is/was? and Objectivist. NOT a Libertarian. The two ideologies are not wholly, or even majoritively, compatible.


Not to me. :)
GM is alive.

Osama bin Laden is dead.
User avatar
vison
Ringbearer


 
Posts: 12696
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:15 pm
Top

Postby hamlet » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:29 pm

vison wrote:Not to me. :)


Did you imagine that to be a pithy response?
User avatar
hamlet
Ringbearer
 
Posts: 10562
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 12:01 pm
Top

Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:48 pm

Everyone else, not the builder, is referring to it as "utopia." They're calling it that for obvious reasons.

I'm a little jaded though. I remember previous attempts. One involved military action as a nearby island nation decided that the spot where an island nation was being built belonged to them. They didn't care before the island was being built up, they didn't maintain it after they seized it. But they cared when someone said "we can be free here."
User avatar
Cenedril_Gildinaur
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 11197
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 7:35 pm
Location: The Real World
Top

Postby oldtoby » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:52 pm

hehe did you see the Daily Show last night? :) Jon Stewart was ripping on the media for ignoring RP's showing in the Straw Poll (and ignoring him in general)
User avatar
oldtoby
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 15281
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2002 10:40 pm
Top

Postby Frelga » Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:53 pm

An island populated by billionaires? Who's gonna do the work?

I really would like to see a step-by-step explanation of how this is meant to be organized.
Impressive. Every word in that sentence was wrong.
Luke Skywalker, The Last Jedi
User avatar
Frelga
GNU Terry Pratchett


 
Posts: 9272
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:05 pm
Top

Postby vison » Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:39 pm

hamlet wrote:
vison wrote:Not to me. :)


Did you imagine that to be a pithy response?


No, I imagined it to be what I actually think.

It might interest you - or not - to explain how these 2 "philosophies" differ.

What was it someone or other in LOTR said? An Elf, I believe, said something like all mortals were alike . . . something like that . . . is it worth me digging out my book? . . . . No . . . I guess not. :)
GM is alive.

Osama bin Laden is dead.
User avatar
vison
Ringbearer


 
Posts: 12696
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:15 pm
Top

Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:11 pm

Image
User avatar
Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 4490
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 3:40 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Top

Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:37 pm

hamlet wrote:
vison wrote:It is, but it only has one "l". 8)

A Libertarian Utopia wouldn't last as long as a Regular Person's Utopia. Jeez. Imagine a whole wee colony of guyz like our resident Libertarian!! I mean, my mind won't go there.

It sure as heck would be nothing like the one in Atlas Shrugged, I can tell you that!!!


Ayn Rand is/was? and Objectivist. NOT a Libertarian. The two ideologies are not wholly, or even majoritively, compatible.


While there are differences, there is also significant overlap. Fundamentally there is a difference in the major focus of each; the Objectivist is concerned with the relationship between the individual and the collective, while the libertarian is concerned with the relationship between the individual and society. But even there one can see how there is overlap.

Perhaps the best way to visualize the difference is when a three dimensional object intersects a plane. There is overlap within the boundary of the solid in an area on the plane. The reason I write that is because Objectivism is a meta-philosophy, a philosophy that is concerned with all five major branches of philosophy. There is an Objectivist position on Logic, Epistemology, Metaphysics, Ethics, and Aesthetics.

Libertarianism is simply a political-economic philosophy, which is macro-ethics, although it has micro-ethics applications and implications. But libertarianism has nothing to say about Metaphysics or Epistemology, and only comments on Aesthetics as far as recognizing that people must like some art form because it sells.

But within macro-ethics, and the micro-ethics implications, the overlap is significant and near total. Indeed, even Rand herself noticed it because she accused libertarians of taking her conclusions without taking the processes used to reach those conclusions.

Within macro-ethics, both have a solid foundation on maximizing the rights of the individual. The founding principle that unites the various factions of libertarianism is the Zero Aggression Principle, and that is something an Objectivist can embrace as well as any other faction. Indeed, if one were to distill libertarianism into one basic principle, the Zero Aggression Principle would be it.

People are used to considering liberal and conservative as umbrella terms for various factions of liberals and conservatives. The same can actually be said about libertarianism. There are factions, including the Anarcho-Capitalists, the Civil-Liberty Liberals, the Paleo-Conservatives, and most importantly the Classic Liberals. And when it comes to what the political goals of each of these groups are, and if you gauge the differences against the similarities, you will find Objectivists fit neatly and exactly in that umbrella grouping.

It is certainly true that being a libertarian does not make one an Objectivist. But being an Objectivist does indeed make one a libertarian.

Now on to vison's rather absurd point. The society would fall apart so very quickly because ... ? Because everyone has a basic respect for the rights of others? Once again, and every time the subject is brought up, people confuse Nietzsche with Rand. Both recognized that the dominant moral code is that people belong to each other, that we belong to everyone else instead of ourselves. Nietzsche said that the proper response to that nonsense is a form of selfishness wherein one says “sacrifice to me.” Rand says “forget that corrupt morality, treat people as individuals worthy of individual rights.”

I made that point in another thread, and you said I was off my rocker. But here you go displaying exactly what I was commenting on last time. If I’m so off my rocker, then you really must explain why you are making the exact same point I talked about last time. The pledge in Atlas Shrugged that bound the striking industrialists was "I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." She dispenses with both being a sucker or a moocher, a victim or a criminal.

But since she is not saying "you must sacrifice," she must be saying "take what you want without regards for others." If you are not Kant you are Nietzsche. In spite of the evidence to the contrary.
User avatar
Cenedril_Gildinaur
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 11197
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 7:35 pm
Location: The Real World
Top

Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:01 pm

Anyone hear of the videogame Bioshock?

Yea, this is totally what happened in that game.
User avatar
Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 4490
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 3:40 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Top

Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:10 pm

Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:Anyone hear of the videogame Bioshock?

Yea, this is totally what happened in that game.


Or so everyone hopes (sans evidence). The alternative, that it might work, is abhorrent.
User avatar
Cenedril_Gildinaur
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 11197
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 7:35 pm
Location: The Real World
Top

Postby DeadRinger » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:02 am

An island of gay marriage, abortions, and women with unshaved armpits.
User avatar
DeadRinger
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 1597
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:21 pm
Top

Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:21 am

Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:Anyone hear of the videogame Bioshock?

Yea, this is totally what happened in that game.


Or so everyone hopes (sans evidence). The alternative, that it might work, is abhorrent.


As long as they don't try genetic experiments to create super humans
User avatar
Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 4490
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 3:40 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Top

Postby portia » Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:11 pm

Robert Heinlein had a good discussion of how a "country" with no "intrusive" government, etc., would work in his long story "Coventry."

A man who didn't feel laws did or should apply to him was sentenced to a place where there were no laws to speak of. He had to stay there. His experiences were very instructive, educative, illuminative, ellucidative. It quickly deteriorated to a place run by the most ruthless and conscienceless.

Q: How are the proposed citizens of this Libertarian island going to manage to decide what principles will apply on it? That seems to me to be a very high obstacle.
User avatar
portia
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 10841
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:57 pm
Location: Lost in the forest
Top

Postby vison » Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:49 pm

The thing is, we already live in a social experiment. Everyone does. Every society is the result of experiment. Many things have been tried and found wanting. What we have is more or less what has suited the most people.
GM is alive.

Osama bin Laden is dead.
User avatar
vison
Ringbearer


 
Posts: 12696
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:15 pm
Top

Postby Minardil » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:42 pm

Hamlet, didn't we already build that private island utopia, where it was always Happy Hour, as I recall?

Of course, our island was not, technically, above sea level, but still. . . .
User avatar
Minardil
Mariner


 
Posts: 9944
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2001 8:06 am
Top

Postby hamlet » Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:04 am

Minardil wrote:Hamlet, didn't we already build that private island utopia, where it was always Happy Hour, as I recall?

Of course, our island was not, technically, above sea level, but still. . . .


I thought about putting this there, but felt it wiser not to pollute the wonder that is Minardillia. It would spoil Happy Hour, after all.
User avatar
hamlet
Ringbearer
 
Posts: 10562
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 12:01 pm
Top

Postby Canamarth » Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:07 am

DeadRinger wrote:An island of gay marriage, abortions, and women with unshaved armpits.


Welcome to (many parts of) Europe, my friend. :D

Why would anyone want to test "green tech" on an island? It's already out there and totally operational.
User avatar
Canamarth
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 13057
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 5:45 am
Location: Willing Suspension of Disbelief
Top

Postby Lee~ » Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:31 am

Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:Anyone hear of the videogame Bioshock?

Yea, this is totally what happened in that game.


Or so everyone hopes (sans evidence). The alternative, that it might work, is abhorrent.


Even if it does work, it will say very little about how a libertarian country will work outside of the controlled environment they are planning, even if they are careful enough to avoid populating their utopia with a random sampling of individuals from all levels of economic/cultural/educational status. Frelga is right. An island populated with millionaires will impress no one, much less legitimate social and political scientists. In any case, I don't think people and societies are predictable except in a rough estimate way. Too many factors involved.
User avatar
Lee~
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 2664
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2002 2:35 pm
Top

Postby Faramond » Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:00 pm

A green island would not simply use green technology. It would demand a completely different philosophy of life that is nowhere present on even a modest scale in societies using modern technology.

To give one example: there would be no packaging in the usual sense on a true green island. A plastic wrapper has a use until it no longer holds its contents. Then it is trash. The materials that made up the plastic no longer have any use. Utility has been destroyed. The fundamental rule of a green, limited-resource island is that utility must not be destroyed. One might recycle some of the plastic, and thus not lose all utility, but this process is not perfect, and it uses energy. The challenge is to discover a method of packaging in which utility is not destroyed when the packaging is no longer needed.
User avatar
Faramond
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 1366
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:06 pm
Top

Postby Frelga » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:25 pm

That's a good example.

Is that so new, though? We would just have to go back to containers instead of packaging. Just the other day I had a nostalgic conversation about milk delivered in glass bottles that were returned in exchange for fresh bottles of milk.

Often, the reason for using shrink wrap and other non-reusable packaging, like the evil clamshell, is to secure merhandise from theft or unauthorized use. An alternative method would save a mountain of resources.

As for the island of millionaires, the only way I can see of making this a pure experiment is to make sure that even the menial occupations are filled with those committed to libertarian ideas. Not sure how I would do that, perhaps only currently registered party members can apply, if there is such thing. I am trying to decide whether making the island self-sufficient should be a requirement.
Impressive. Every word in that sentence was wrong.
Luke Skywalker, The Last Jedi
User avatar
Frelga
GNU Terry Pratchett


 
Posts: 9272
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:05 pm
Top

Postby Stalin Brando » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:45 pm

The ideal government would be something where people like myself relax in large rural manors and hunt and read books while people unlike me do all the work.


Without the racial divisions like in the Old American South please, that stuff makes me feel bad. It should just work more on personality and life outlook, like this:


The Stalin Brando pyramid of power:

Not interested in education or books, prefer hands on work like fixing cars type: Peasant

Hard working, never take a day-off over-achieving type = Peasant

Civilized, high-IQ under-achieving bum (like myself) = elite


I think you get the idea.
Stalin Brando
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:28 pm
Top

Postby DeadRinger » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:18 pm

Canamarth wrote:
DeadRinger wrote:An island of gay marriage, abortions, and women with unshaved armpits.


Welcome to (many parts of) Europe, my friend. :D

Why would anyone want to test "green tech" on an island? It's already out there and totally operational.


I was putting that out there as a joke on the stereotypes held by right-wingers. I think you'll find that very few European women don't shave their armpits these days, and any that don't would generally be of a certain age, or bat for the other team.
User avatar
DeadRinger
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 1597
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:21 pm
Top

Postby vison » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:22 pm

DeadRinger wrote:
Canamarth wrote:
DeadRinger wrote:An island of gay marriage, abortions, and women with unshaved armpits.


Welcome to (many parts of) Europe, my friend. :D

Why would anyone want to test "green tech" on an island? It's already out there and totally operational.


I was putting that out there as a joke on the stereotypes held by right-wingers. I think you'll find that very few European women don't shave their armpits these days, and any that don't would generally be of a certain age, or bat for the other team.


I have seldom, if ever, read anything more revealing than that post. I daresay you didn't mean it that way, but, jeez. I mean, jeez. :rofl:

Shaven armpits mean something other than some kind of weird squeamishness about the female body? Ever hear about John Ruskin and his wedding night?

Lots of perfectly normal, not-playing-for-the-other-team women don't shave their armpits - all over the world!!! Imagine that.

The things you learn on the interweebs. Jeez, again. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
GM is alive.

Osama bin Laden is dead.
User avatar
vison
Ringbearer


 
Posts: 12696
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:15 pm
Top

Postby DeadRinger » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:00 am

vison wrote:
DeadRinger wrote:
Canamarth wrote:
DeadRinger wrote:An island of gay marriage, abortions, and women with unshaved armpits.


Welcome to (many parts of) Europe, my friend. :D

Why would anyone want to test "green tech" on an island? It's already out there and totally operational.


I was putting that out there as a joke on the stereotypes held by right-wingers. I think you'll find that very few European women don't shave their armpits these days, and any that don't would generally be of a certain age, or bat for the other team.


I have seldom, if ever, read anything more revealing than that post. I daresay you didn't mean it that way, but, jeez. I mean, jeez. :rofl:

Shaven armpits mean something other than some kind of weird squeamishness about the female body? Ever hear about John Ruskin and his wedding night?

Lots of perfectly normal, not-playing-for-the-other-team women don't shave their armpits - all over the world!!! Imagine that.

The things you learn on the interweebs. Jeez, again. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Oh Vison, I wasn't making any value judgements here, I was just pointing out a cultural reality. Once upon a time most European women didn't shave, but over the last several decades shaving (or hair-removal in general) has become the norm. And of course I understand that it varies from country to country, region to region. And these days there are quite a few guys who are doing it too. Hey, Gilette shareholders gotta eat.
User avatar
DeadRinger
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 1597
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:21 pm
Top

Postby vison » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:08 am

There are few things that creep me out more than these men who shave their bodies. I mean, I guess we all know men who have "too much" hair on the chest or, especially, back, but . . . . I dunno. I was looking through the ONE magazine in a doctor's office a week or so ago, I think the magazine was Men's Vogue (but probably not) and it was full of very odd looking young fellows with no discernable body hair and with very shiny skin as if they had oiled themselves up.

Well, yes, of course they had. And of course the magazine was not aimed at an old woman or any women, it was aimed pretty much at gay men, I should think, and if gay men like to look at hairless skinny boys with really, really prominent cheekbones, then, good for them I say. Yes, good for them. To each his own.

But even ordinary straight guys seem to have taken up the razor and attacked their manly chests and what not. (Not so sure about the what nots, but this is what I hear . . . 8) ) I belong to the school that thinks men are more attractive with some hirsuteness about the chest and arms, but hey, times change. :)
GM is alive.

Osama bin Laden is dead.
User avatar
vison
Ringbearer


 
Posts: 12696
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:15 pm
Top

Next

Return to Philosophy: Councils of Manwë

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests