Israeli ads offensive to diaspora Jews pulled from US TV.

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Postby Storyteller » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:39 pm

RoseMorninStar wrote:[color=indigo]Thoughtless ease? Because you don't like what I had to say you presume it was said with thoughtless ease?

No, because what you- and vison- said betrayed either a lack of thinking... or the fact that the person asking the question really can see no other solutions. Am I to understand that if you, or vison, were in charge of solving the aforementioned challenge, "getting rid of people you don't like" would've been the only practical solution you could produce? That it would have been your first idea before you could think of alternatives?

And just to be clear, I was in no way referring to ethnic cleansing. I was thinking more about sheer volume of persons vying for space/fighting over land, knowing that that bit of land is already highly contested by two divided groups who consider it to be crowded.

Which is why you endorsed vison's post which actually spelled out "ethnic cleansing", although she did leave herself some fog to hide in. Makes a whole lot of sense.

First of all.. to back up a bit.. when I considered & posted my comments on this thread I viewed this topic from a (much) broader scope than I believe you are, Storyteller. By that I mean I was not specifically considering Israel, or specifically Jewish persons.. and certainly not specifically you in my response.

Which is why you ended up making a pretty specific charge of "the more Jewish people, the easier to perhaps 'deal' with the Palestinian 'issue'?"

Sorry Rose but your "excellent post" is deflection.
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Postby Faramond » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:15 am

I just hope all the Roman Catholics don't move to Vatican City.


Standing room only.

Is it two hectares of arable land or two hectares of any sort of land per person?
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Postby vison » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:21 am

Well, what do you think would happen to all the non-Jewish Israelis, Storyteller?

Israel may well be the only nation that deals with such an issue without some form of "ethnic cleansing" or mass deportation or forcible conversion or all the other ways nations and cultures have dealt with such issues in the past - but what could they do differently? What "alternatives" would "thinking" people come up with?

Would things just continue on as peaceably as they are at present? That's one of the "solutions" I come up with. Even though I'm not thinking. :wink:
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Postby Storyteller » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:58 pm

vison wrote:Well, what do you think would happen to all the non-Jewish Israelis, Storyteller?

They would continue to be themselves. Why should that change?

Israel may well be the only nation that deals with such an issue without some form of "ethnic cleansing" or mass deportation or forcible conversion or all the other ways nations and cultures have dealt with such issues in the past - but what could they do differently? What "alternatives" would "thinking" people come up with?

Alternatives to ethnic cleansing as a solution to a large population increase? Oh lt me think for a moment.

How about increasing agricultural output? That can't possibly work, can it?

Israel's population grew 9 times since 1948, from 800 000 to 7.5 million- but agricultural production increased 16 times. That, vison, is how it's done.
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Postby RoseMorninStar » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:20 pm

RoseMorninStar wrote:

vison wrote:I don't know. What is the downside? Do you have room for everyone? Housing? Jobs? Schools?

Although I probably shouldn't say it, you might have to make room for them. And how, one asks, does a nation make room for lots of the people it likes? Generally by getting rid of the people it doesn't like.
This was precisely my thought. The more Jewish people.. the easier to perhaps 'deal' with the Palestinian 'issue'?

I try very hard to keep a civil conversation and stick to the topic of the original thread. I did not attack you, Storyteller, but you have attacked everyone in this thread. Your blood pressure must be sky-high. When vison asked, "And how, one asks, does a nation make room for lots of the people it likes? Generally by getting rid of the people it doesn't like." She is 100% correct. History backs up her claim, and so, it is no surprise that the same thought would enter my head.

There are many ways of 'getting rid of people one doesn't like'. Here in the United States many people would like to 'get rid' of illegal immigrants, but there is no talk of 'ethnic cleansing' but of deportation.. you were the one who quickly jumped to the conclusion of ethnic cleansing.

Our skepticism lies in history. You say we are not thinking 'clear headed' because several of us wondered exactly how a large influx of a 'preferred' people would not displace existing (and perhaps 'less preferred') peoples. In this particular thread we are discussing a particular country, a particular people, but it could be another country.. another people. If Mongolia were making an appeal for it's people to come back 'home'... there wouldn't be much of an issue.. it's one of the least populated pieces of land on Earth. Not so with the area under discussion.

I am not hearing a rational, intelligent discourse about how this would be accomplished. If history would bear out that such moves were routinely (or even occasionally) accomplished with cooperation and peace, this conversation would be mute. But there is already much discord/dispute over land in that region, I cannot see where more people would make the situation better. A conclusion one could draw is that more 'desirable' people would change the percentage of 'undesirable' people, thus creating some advantages. I would certainly welcome a discussion of other conclusions.

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Postby Storyteller » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:45 pm

RoseMorninStar wrote:
RoseMorninStar wrote:

vison wrote:I don't know. What is the downside? Do you have room for everyone? Housing? Jobs? Schools?

Although I probably shouldn't say it, you might have to make room for them. And how, one asks, does a nation make room for lots of the people it likes? Generally by getting rid of the people it doesn't like.
This was precisely my thought. The more Jewish people.. the easier to perhaps 'deal' with the Palestinian 'issue'?

I try very hard to keep a civil conversation and stick to the topic of the original thread. I did not attack you, Storyteller, but you have attacked everyone in this thread. Your blood pressure must be sky-high.

You'd be surprised how calm I am. I simply came to the conclusion that politeness at the expense of truth is a bad idea.

When vison asked, "And how, one asks, does a nation make room for lots of the people it likes? Generally by getting rid of the people it doesn't like." She is 100% correct. History backs up her claim, and so, it is no surprise that the same thought would enter my head.

There are many ways of 'getting rid of people one doesn't like'. Here in the United States many people would like to 'get rid' of illegal immigrants, but there is no talk of 'ethnic cleansing' but of deportation.. you were the one who quickly jumped to the conclusion of ethnic cleansing.

Deportation on the sole basis of one's ethnicity is just a form of ethnic cleansing, so you're not helping yourself here.

Our skepticism lies in history. You say we are not thinking 'clear headed' because several of us wondered exactly how a large influx of a 'preferred' people would not displace existing (and perhaps 'less preferred') peoples. In this particular thread we are discussing a particular country, a particular people, but it could be another country.. another people.

And yet you're discussing this one, so putting up a pretense of strictly theoretical interest isn't going to fly.

I am not hearing a rational, intelligent discourse about how this would be accomplished.


Not even after I've repeated it several times. Definitely a communication problem there.
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Postby Jnyusa » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:45 pm

Faramond wrote:Is it two hectares of arable land or two hectares of any sort of land per person?


Arable land! But that underestimates true need, because there also has to be access to pasturage, woodland, water sources, all of which take up space.

Most countries probably could not be self-sufficient in food. They need trade to survive.

Storyteller wrote:Israel's population grew 9 times since 1948, from 800 000 to 7.5 million- but agricultural production increased 16 times.


That's not a fair comparison because there was a lot of idle capacity in 1948. (Reasons why so much land was unused can be debated - my money goes on Turkish tax law and the subsequent failure of the mandate to provide land reform.) You won't get that kind of increase in the future for the agricultural sector, but you might get comparable gains in other areas. As long as a country has a strong export sector, food self-sufficiency is not in and of itself a necessary achievement. You don't, though, want to be in a position of dependence on countries that you can't trust. So the trade picture can't be delinked from the diplomacy picture, imo.
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Postby Storyteller » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:09 pm

Jnyusa wrote:That's not a fair comparison because there was a lot of idle capacity in 1948. (Reasons why so much land was unused can be debated - my money goes on Turkish tax law and the subsequent failure of the mandate to provide land reform.) You won't get that kind of increase in the future for the agricultural sector, but you might get comparable gains in other areas.

But we're not talking about a 9-fold increase of population, either.

There's still a good deal of idle capacity and resources looking to be exploited, so the growth is ongoing. Israel's agricultural output increased in a single decade between 1999 and 2009 by 26% (while the use of water for agriculture decreased 12%), and there's certainly potential for more.

With the right know-how, any land is arable land. The Gush Katif settlements, before they were uprooted, produced 15% of Israel's agricultural exports while having virtually no arable land- there was no reason for why one couldn't build high tech greenhouses on infertile sand dunes. Fish farming in the desert is the new big thing right now; 100kg of fish per cubic meter of otherwise useless brackish water from the underground sea under the Negev, and that water, enriched with nutrients from fish poo, can then be used to fertilize crops. You bet there's room to grow.

P.S. There may have been a lot of idle capacity in 1948, but much of the land currently farmed was considered completely unuseable back then for any agricultural purpose. The net amount of arable land in Israel has been increased.
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Postby Jnyusa » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:41 pm

Yes, but those are all actually examples of capitalization, which goes to my point.

It is till true that Israel imports three-quarters of her basic foodstuffs. If you find new high-tech ways to grow fish, then that's going to increase your export sector and allow you to import more and different kinds of foods. But domestic land-intensive cereal grains are not going to increase 26% over the next ten years.
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Postby vison » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:09 pm

Storyteller wrote: The Gush Katif settlements, before they were uprooted . . .


Why were they uprooted?
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Postby Voronwe_the_Faithful » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:48 am

vison, Gush Katif is in Gaza, and the settlements there were among those that Israel forcibly evacuated when it unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza strip. The residents were forced by the Israeli army to return to Israel, and their homes were demolished.
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Postby vison » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:35 am

Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:vison, Gush Katif is in Gaza, and the settlements there were among those that Israel forcibly evacuated when it unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza strip. The residents were forced by the Israeli army to return to Israel, and their homes were demolished.


I know that, Voronwe. I hoped Storyteller would answer. I'd like to know what he thinks of it. Maybe he's done so in another thread.

As I've said about a zillion times on this forum and elsewhere, I'm on Israel's "side". I don't see that changing. But I am not going to pretend that the State of Israel is perfect. I believe I can criticize Israel as freely as I do Canada or the US or Liberia or wherever.
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Postby Storyteller » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:15 am

Jnyusa wrote:It is till true that Israel imports three-quarters of her basic foodstuffs.

That's not actually true.

Israel produces about 85% of its food. It imports 80% of its requirements of grains, saltwater fish, non-poultry meat, coffee, cocoa, sugar and oil seeds. But we're quite self-sufficient with other foodstuffs such as vegetables, poultry, eggs, milk products and fruit; in fact we're among world's leading exporters of fresh fruits and vegetables. (We even have the domestic demand for pork covered by local production, but shhhhhhhh ;))

If you find new high-tech ways to grow fish, then that's going to increase your export sector and allow you to import more and different kinds of foods. But domestic land-intensive cereal grains are not going to increase 26% over the next ten years.

They're not. So what? Israel's economy can certainly pay for increased exports if need be. It isn't really an issue.

(Current predictions are that Israel's agricultural production will continue to grow at roughly the same pace as during the 2000s until at least 2020).

vison wrote:Why were they uprooted?

Because Ariel Sharon bought into the "let's remove the settlements" schtick. Which worked out about as well as any other kibitzer advice. Although if you're looking for a root cause, then it was because the Egyptian army ethnically cleansed the Jews from Kfar Darom and other towns in that area in 1948, and it somehow became illegal for Jews to rebuild them.
Last edited by Storyteller on Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Storyteller » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:17 am

vison wrote:As I've said about a zillion times on this forum and elsewhere, I'm on Israel's "side". I don't see that changing. But I am not going to pretend that the State of Israel is perfect. I believe I can criticize Israel as freely as I do Canada or the US or Liberia or wherever.

By all means, criticize, but unless you do it from the position of actual knowledge, expect criticism in return :)
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Postby vison » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:08 pm

Storyteller wrote:
vison wrote:As I've said about a zillion times on this forum and elsewhere, I'm on Israel's "side". I don't see that changing. But I am not going to pretend that the State of Israel is perfect. I believe I can criticize Israel as freely as I do Canada or the US or Liberia or wherever.

By all means, criticize, but unless you do it from the position of actual knowledge, expect criticism in return :)


Holy cats. When have I ever said I wasn't expecting to be criticized? :?

It's part of the fun of being here. I've changed my mind on a couple of things since beginning to post here. And I don't mind the slings and arrows of outraged Manweistas. :)
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Postby vison » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:16 pm

Storyteller wrote:Because Ariel Sharon bought into the "let's remove the settlements" schtick. Which worked out about as well as any other kibitzer advice. Although if you're looking for a root cause, then it was because the Egyptian army ethnically cleansed the Jews from Kfar Darom and other towns in that area in 1948, and it somehow became illegal for Jews to rebuild them.


I had read that the British (who controlled Palestine in those days) removed the Jews from that area following terrible riots in 1929?

Did the Egyptians "ethnically cleanse" the area in 1948? Or did the settlers leave?
Land for the village of Kfar Darom was purchased in the 1930s and settled in 1946. It was evacuated following an Egyptian siege in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.



Wikipedia says "evacuated" and that gives quite a different picture than "ethnically cleansed". Which is truer?
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Postby Storyteller » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:35 pm

vison wrote:
Storyteller wrote:Because Ariel Sharon bought into the "let's remove the settlements" schtick. Which worked out about as well as any other kibitzer advice. Although if you're looking for a root cause, then it was because the Egyptian army ethnically cleansed the Jews from Kfar Darom and other towns in that area in 1948, and it somehow became illegal for Jews to rebuild them.


I had read that the British (who controlled Palestine in those days) removed the Jews from that area following terrible riots in 1929?


Did the Egyptians "ethnically cleanse" the area in 1948? Or did the settlers leave?
Land for the village of Kfar Darom was purchased in the 1930s and settled in 1946. It was evacuated following an Egyptian siege in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.



Wikipedia says "evacuated" and that gives quite a different picture than "ethnically cleansed". Which is truer?

The Gush Katif communities were established in 1927. They were devastated by the 1929 Arab pogrom spree, the same one which wiped out the Jewish community of Hebron, after which the British decided that it was less trouble for them to forcibly remove the victims than to confront the aggressors. They were re-established in 1946. In 1948 they withstood three months of starvation siege by the Egyptian army, hanging on by sheer grit for lack of everything else, and were eventually surrendered, with the remaining survivors evacuated.

Not a single Jewish town was allowed to remain standing on any piece of territory captured for any length of time by the Arab forces in 1948-1949. I think it's more than fair to call it ethnic cleansing.
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Postby Jnyusa » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:22 pm

Storyteller wrote:They're not. So what? Israel's economy can certainly pay for increased exports if need be. It isn't really an issue.


Hello? Isn't that what I've been saying all along?
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Postby DeadRinger » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:59 pm

OK, so this thread grew a bit since I was last here. But I'm going back a couple of pages to pick up where I left off.

Storyteller wrote:
DeadRinger wrote:Kibitzer: one who looks on and often offers unwanted advice or comment. (Merriam-Webster online)

Yeah, very cute. But if you don't want to read posts from non-Jews discussing your nation and its behaviour then you should go away. Leave Manwë. You come here and choose to comment on anything and everything you like, and you should expect others to do the same. Because that's what we do here.

I probably will leave eventually, yes. But its not even the kibitzing per se; it's the patterns in which it goes. Always the same, to the point that I can answer their new posts with my old posts from the thread before.


Hey if you choose to repeat yourself with the same inane 'arguments' then that's your problem.

You need to wake up and realise that no nation is a political island, perhaps least of all yours. Israel was formed because nations such as ours agreed that it should be formed, and valuable political, diplomatic and financial capital is being spent all the time to allow Israel to continue on its course. But the way it's going at the moment, it seems to be stubbornly pursuing a course toward war. And just who do you think will be dragged into that war if and when it happens? Your business is the world's business - you may not like it, but get over it.

Israel was formed because the Jews rose up and made it. "Nations such as yours" (do you even know which way your nation voted? People who say it usually don't,) at best grudgingly gave their approval to facts on the ground. From which you seem to infer some sort of ownership rights of those nations over Israel. Well guess what? You don't have any. That's the thing about sovereignty. Comment all you like; we'll comment on you, too. But our business is our business, and when you insist on intruding on our business, I'll comment on your motives. Might even call you a kibitzer.


My nation of Australia certainly did vote in favour of the partition of Palestine, and has supported Israel ever since (my other nation of Finland hadn't yet joined the UN). And while this doesn't mean ownership rights, it certainly does mean it shares diplomatic responsibility for the ongoing situation. Your business is our business, just as ours is yours. Welcome to the world.

And OF COURSE it is Israel who is pursuing a course towards war. Not the Palestinians, whose most moderate moderates are only slightly less genocidally-minded than their most radical radicals. Not Turkey, who has zero problems with their neighbors except that their Navy is busy intimidating Cyprus- a EU member- a good chunk of which they've been occupying for decades with not a squeak heard from you. Not Egypt, which is being taken over by warlike theocracy enthusiasts, elected by a people who have never made peace with having made peace. Not Syria, who has been acting particularly Syrian for the last year. Not Iran, who proclaims the intention to destroy Israel on an hourly basis and will soon have the nukes to give those words weight. It's always us, all us, all the time. Otherwise your world makes no sense, does it?


But it is Israel that actually has been carrying out full-scale acts of war:

Image
Image

But what this thread is about is Israel's portrayal of not only Jewish people living outside Israel, but of the foreign lands and communities they're living in as threats and undesirable places to live. This is divisive not only for expat Israelis and foreign Jews, but also to the non-Jewish populations of those foreign countries. The ads are saying that my Jewish friends shouldn't really be living here and associating with us goyim because we're a bad influence on their Jewish identity, and that they actually ought to go live in Israel.

This further hints to the people of these nations that perhaps non-Jews should be suspicious of Jewish citizens and their level of loyalty and commitment to their homelands. "Hey, if Israel is saying Jewish people don't belong here, then maybe it's true, and maybe the Jews around me think the same. And if we're a bad influence on their sense of identity, then maybe they're a bad influence on ours." But as we all know, that road leads to some really ugly places. Of course, decent, reasonable people will know to dismiss such suggestions, but unfortunately, there isn't a single society in the world that is 100% full of decent, reasonable people.

And that, basically, is the real reason you dragged it in here. You're looking to spin this ad campaign as something that makes anti-Semitism more reasonable, more "understandable".


Anti-Semitism is understandable. So is Nazism, Stalinism, Wahabism, Randism, paedophilia, psychopathy and country music. As reprehensible as they all are, they can be understood. And it is necessary to understand them in order to counter them. 'Know your enemy', like Sun Tzu said. Because if you don't, you end up becoming your own enemy.

Now, it's bloody obvious that there's nothing of the kind in the videos, and that American Jews, or non-Jews, are not the target audience.


No, they're just the target of attack.

The concern for losing cultural identity is not something unique to Israelis, or to Jews; it's a concern of every minority. There are minorities out there who go to far more extreme ways of safeguarding their traditional ways and are met with understanding rather than accusations of "not belonging". Armenians very actively campaign for repatriation, but who has ever heard of DeadDinger-like "criticism" of Armenians?


Jewish people are no minority in Israel. And it's been a while since I've seen Armenians carry out acts like the ones depicted in the pictures above.

But you know what? If it is only the non-decent, non-reasonable people who're going to fall for such suggestions, then what exactly is the problem? Since when must one look over their shoulder to ensure that those kinds of people don't get the wrong end of the stick?


Since forever. It's called international diplomacy. Now that you have your own nation, you need to learn about it.

If they're looking for reasons to hate, they'll find them; they should be muzzled, not appeaced. Who gives a sack of jumping monkeys, really?

Or is there something else to it, DeadRinger?


Because you'll get even more haters finding even more reasons to hate when you hand them to them on a silver platter. Do it enough and you end up with them in political power.
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Postby Storyteller » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:06 pm

DeadRinger wrote:their new posts with my old posts from the thread before.


Hey if you choose to repeat yourself with the same inane 'arguments' then that's your problem.[/quote]
Well, you repeat the same inane questions; why are you surprised that you get the same answers?

My nation of Australia certainly did vote in favour of the partition of Palestine, and has supported Israel ever since (my other nation of Finland hadn't yet joined the UN). And while this doesn't mean ownership rights, it certainly does mean it shares diplomatic responsibility for the ongoing situation. Your business is our business, just as ours is yours. Welcome to the world.

Australia hardly "shares diplomatic responsibility" for giving its post-factum approval to something it had no part in creating. Australia voted in all sorts of UN resolutions since, but were someone to suggest that it somehow entitles Australia to interfere at will in the affairs of states subject to those resolutions, you'd flip your lid.

That said, I've been to Australia and I've met enough Australians. You claiming kibitzing rights on the basis of Australia having "diplomatic responsibility" is rather amusing considering just how "representative" you are of the majority view in your country.

But it is Israel that actually has been carrying out full-scale acts of war:

Image
Image

Ah yes, the tired old nonsense put to rest in previous threads will always crop up in the next one. Israel is currently the only state in the world that has ever been accused of war crime for using white phosphorous in airbursting smoke rounds; everybody else is only prohiited from using it as an incendiary.

Makes for fancy photos, though. Colorful and all.

Anti-Semitism is understandable. So is Nazism, Stalinism, Wahabism, Randism, paedophilia, psychopathy and country music. As reprehensible as they all are, they can be understood. And it is necessary to understand them in order to counter them. 'Know your enemy', like Sun Tzu said. Because if you don't, you end up becoming your own enemy.

Horse manure, my friend. It's a worn-out old tactic, oscillating between the two meanings of "understandable"- the intellectual one and the exculpatory one. But you aren't actually looking to understand anti-Semitism in the same sense as you would Swahili or physics.

No, they're just the target of attack.

Which explains their absence in the videos, I suppose.

Jewish people are no minority in Israel. And it's been a while since I've seen Armenians carry out acts like the ones depicted in the pictures above.

That's pretty fascinating. Jewish people are no minority in Israel, yet the ads were aimed at the Israeli expats in America where they are most certainly a minority. But that's not even the interesting part; the interesting part is that you link it to "the pictures above" as if there were any connection. Classic case of all-encompassing paranoid "understanding" of a bigot; force-link everything to a single cause (preferably one grounded in the identity of the target people) to convince yourself and others that the target people aren't merely acting badly on the particular occasion, but that the occasion merely highlights how they are immutably evil in their very nature.

Since forever. It's called international diplomacy. Now that you have your own nation, you need to learn about it.

It's a funny thing, international diplomacy. Not based on truth, most of the time.

If they're looking for reasons to hate, they'll find them; they should be muzzled, not appeaced. Who gives a sack of jumping monkeys, really?

Or is there something else to it, DeadRinger?


Because you'll get even more haters finding even more reasons to hate when you hand them to them on a silver platter. Do it enough and you end up with them in political power.

So the Jews are supposed to pacify your extremists at our expense or else? My, isn't that so 19th century. I would LOVE to see an argument of that nature offered in discussing any other nation.
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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Postby portia » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:46 am

Does the Roman Catholic Church's "Come back to church" campaign remind anyone else of the Israeli ads?
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Postby vison » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:54 am

portia wrote:Does the Roman Catholic Church's "Come back to church" campaign remind anyone else of the Israeli ads?


I'll bite: yes. :)
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