Israeli ads offensive to diaspora Jews pulled from US TV.

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Postby Storyteller » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:25 pm

UtgardLoki wrote:
Storyteller wrote:Yiddish is Hebrew AND German-based. It incorporates elements of other languages as well. So what?
No, Yiddish is High German based, with Hebrew, Aramaic, Slavic and Latin influences. To describe it as "Hebrew based" is as mistaken as describing English as "French based". It used the Hebrew script, and developed in the 10th century, not 15th as you state. More disinformation, Storyteller.

It did not exist as a distinct language in the 10th century. High German itself barely existed at the 10th century, as far as I recall. The earliest document written in anything approaching Yiddish was a document in Middle High German around the 12th century but Yiddish as a distinct language did not fully emerge until 15th.

(Before one reads Wikipedia, my friend, one needs to actually learn to read).

It is interesting that Yiddish came to be seen as the language of International Judaism, whilst Hebrew became the language of Zionism.

It was seen as the "language of international Judaism" for the same reason why the 18th century Polish attire became Hassidic equivalent of uniform: not because it was more authentic but because it became one of the fault lines between those Jews who embraced the Enlightenment and those who sought to resist it. Hebrew, even before modern Zionism, was the language in which the Enlightenment-era secular Jewish literature was usually written and read, so the traditional communities opposed to Enlightenment's innovations tended to restrict the use of Hebrew to the synagogue; still, most of the Chassidic folk tales were written down in Hebrew, not Yiddish.

And obviously, Yiddish may have been seen by the non-Jewish Europe-centric observers as the language of international Judaism, but it could not be, because outside of Yiddish-speaking Europe (and in some of its corners), there were equally Jewish Jews speaking other languages and communicating in Hebrew.

This attack by Zionism (Israel) on non-Hebrew Jewish identity would appear to be ongoing, if these adverts in the USA are any example.

Heh. Nice try, except the revival of Hebrew pre-dated modern Zionism by a good few decades, and "non-Hebrew Jewish identity" has studied Hebrew all along.

It is this which is the imposition, the insinuation that there is something "wrong" with using non-Hebrew when, in fact, Hebrew as a spoken language is thoroughly modern. In point of fact, many orthodox Jews would still claim that Hebrew is solely the language of scripture and has no place as the vernacular.

I'm not so sure about that, heh. Last I checked, even the anti-Zionist crazies from Mea Shearim have been writing their pashkvils in Hebrew.

Perhaps it is this blurring of scriptural expression and secularism that is the motive behind Israeli actions? Israel is Jewishness, both temporal and spiritual, another offence to the diaspora.

That made no sense at all. Not that I expected it to....

No, the point of the ad was to inculcate guilt.

No, the point of the ad was triggering nostalgic feelings in the expats. But when someone is dedicated to seeking out negativities, they're bound to invent some.

And how easy would it be for a Syrian Arab Muslim descendant in the USA to emigrate to Israel? As easy as a Russian Jewish descendant in the USA?

For a Syrian Arab? Given the de-jure state of war, pretty difficult, but then again, emigrating from the Nazi Germany to Britain was not easy too back in the 40-s. Egyptian Arabs apparently emigrate quite fine. Is it as easy as emigrating to the USA (for anyone, I don't recall any special exceptions the USA makes for Russian Jews)? Probably easier, with their draconian demands. People immigrating to Israel do not need to pass a language test or an economic means test, and the period of legal residence after which one can naturalize is a good deal shorter.
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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Postby UtgardLoki » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:16 pm

Storyteller, you failed to answer how many non-Jewish immigrants are members of the Knesset. An oversight, I'm sure. I know there are Jewish immigrants in the Knesset. Avigdor Lieberman is Israeli Minister of Foreign Affairs and Deputy Prime Minister. I believe he is an immigrant?
As for the advertisement that criticises the use of "daddy" in place of "abba", this is not provoking nostalgia, but guilt.
And finally, it is interesting to note that you view American descendants of Syrian Arabs as enemies. A bunker mentality? However, I can appreciate your argument here, so perhaps it would be apposite to substitute another group. How about a Thai? Would a non-Jewish Thai descendant in America enjoy equal opportunity for gaining Israeli citizenship as a German Jewish descendant in America? Or even would a child born in Israel to a non-Jewish worker find gaining Israeli citizenship as easy as a Jew born in London?

ETA Thank you for the recommendation regarding wikipedia. Having read what is written there regarding High German, it states that this language originated c.500 CE, which doesn't quite chime with your statement that "High German itself barely existed at the 10th century". Even written High German was extant in the 6th century CE. So... :)
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Postby Storyteller » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:00 pm

UtgardLoki wrote:Storyteller, you failed to answer how many non-Jewish immigrants are members of the Knesset. An oversight, I'm sure.

Not an oversight. I've answered your question quite fine, reasons and all.

I know there are Jewish immigrants in the Knesset. Avigdor Lieberman is Israeli Minister of Foreign Affairs and Deputy Prime Minister. I believe he is an immigrant?

He is. What of it?

As for the advertisement that criticises the use of "daddy" in place of "abba", this is not provoking nostalgia, but guilt.

Perhaps. But the ad being aimed at Israeli expats, it's hardly different from any other cultural group urging its members to preserve its language. Hell, some respectable democratic states have national laws limiting the volume of foreign-produced music on their radio and TV in their own countries, and Israelis can't mildly nudge their own expats on language issues? Puh-lease.

And finally, it is interesting to note that you view American descendants of Syrian Arabs as enemies. A bunker mentality?

You said "Syrian Arab", I thought you meant a Syrian citizen. Syrian citizenship would be a problem because of the state of war. If such a person weren't a Syrian citizen, obviously that would not apply.

However, I can appreciate your argument here, so perhaps it would be apposite to substitute another group. How about a Thai? Would a non-Jewish Thai descendant in America enjoy equal opportunity for gaining Israeli citizenship as a German Jewish descendant in America? Or even would a child born in Israel to a non-Jewish worker find gaining Israeli citizenship as easy as a Jew born in London?

Like I said, Israeli immigration does favor Jews (not sure what is meant by "Jewish descendant"- and like I said, it is not discriminatory and is not viewed as such when other states practice similar immigration policies.

ETA Thank you for the recommendation regarding wikipedia. Having read what is written there regarding High German, it states that this language originated c.500 CE, which doesn't quite chime with your statement that "High German itself barely existed at the 10th century". Even written High German was extant in the 6th century CE. So... :)

Yiddish did not develop from the Old High German but from the Middle High German, an 11th to 14th century dialect.
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Postby UtgardLoki » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:07 pm

Storyteller wrote:Like I said, Israeli immigration does favor Jews (not sure what is meant by "Jewish descendant"- and like I said, it is not discriminatory and is not viewed as such when other states practice similar immigration policies.
I think the page layout may have introduced confusion here. The actual term was "German Jewish descendant", and meant those Jewish Americans whose antecedents were both German and Jewish. "Jewish German descendant"would have been equally descriptive. I'm unfamiliar with any definitive convention.
vison wrote:I bet there is a "purity test" that everyone could take and then every Jew - in Israel or out of Israel - would know exactly "how Jewish" they are.

Just a suggestion. :cool:
And still there are people who think it should actually matter.
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Postby Storyteller » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:22 pm

UtgardLoki wrote:
Storyteller wrote:Like I said, Israeli immigration does favor Jews (not sure what is meant by "Jewish descendant"- and like I said, it is not discriminatory and is not viewed as such when other states practice similar immigration policies.
I think the page layout may have introduced confusion here. The actual term was "German Jewish descendant", and meant those Jewish Americans whose antecedents were both German and Jewish. "Jewish German descendant"would have been equally descriptive. I'm unfamiliar with any definitive convention.

Well come up with an intelligible definition that would allow me to answer the question, then come back and ask.

vison wrote:I bet there is a "purity test" that everyone could take and then every Jew - in Israel or out of Israel - would know exactly "how Jewish" they are.

Just a suggestion. :Cool:
And still there are people who think it should actually matter.

And they're not even asking you. Funny how that works.
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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Postby UtgardLoki » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:47 pm

Storyteller wrote:
UtgardLoki wrote:
Storyteller wrote:Like I said, Israeli immigration does favor Jews (not sure what is meant by "Jewish descendant"- and like I said, it is not discriminatory and is not viewed as such when other states practice similar immigration policies.
I think the page layout may have introduced confusion here. The actual term was "German Jewish descendant", and meant those Jewish Americans whose antecedents were both German and Jewish. "Jewish German descendant"would have been equally descriptive. I'm unfamiliar with any definitive convention.

Well come up with an intelligible definition that would allow me to answer the question, then come back and ask.
Which term are you unfamilar with, "descendant", "antecedent", "German", "Jewish", or "equally"?

Storyteller wrote:
vison wrote:I bet there is a "purity test" that everyone could take and then every Jew - in Israel or out of Israel - would know exactly "how Jewish" they are.

Just a suggestion. :Cool:
And still there are people who think it should actually matter.

And they're not even asking you. Funny how that works.
Who are these "they" you seem so familar with? Should I be investing in a tinfoil hat? :D
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Postby Storyteller » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:54 am

UtgardLoki wrote:Which term are you unfamilar with, "descendant", "antecedent", "German", "Jewish", or "equally"?

I'm not sure what you mean by a "German Jewish descendant". Does that mean a person who is Jewish today? If yes, why the superfluous construction of the question? If not, what's the point of the question?
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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Postby UtgardLoki » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:21 am

Storyteller wrote:
UtgardLoki wrote:Which term are you unfamilar with, "descendant", "antecedent", "German", "Jewish", or "equally"?

I'm not sure what you mean by a "German Jewish descendant". Does that mean a person who is Jewish today? If yes, why the superfluous construction of the question? If not, what's the point of the question?
This is starting to feel like flogging a dead horse, which is more than likely a sign that this discussion has run its course, at least for me. However, I will try to provide a question which you can answer fully demonstrating that Israel isn't discriminatory. Take two cases. The first is an American man whose parents are both German Jews, but who has never observed Jewish practices. He eats non-kosher food, works on the sabbath, is atheist, etc. Example two is a child, born in Israel, son of Thai nationals working in Israel, but who are not Israeli citizens. Which of the two would find gaining Israeli citizenship easier? The one born in Israel, or the one born in America?
Storyteller wrote:...like I said, it is not discriminatory and is not viewed as such when other states practice similar immigration policies.
Which other state has similar immigration policies?
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Postby Storyteller » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:45 am

UtgardLoki wrote:
Storyteller wrote:
UtgardLoki wrote:Which term are you unfamilar with, "descendant", "antecedent", "German", "Jewish", or "equally"?

I'm not sure what you mean by a "German Jewish descendant". Does that mean a person who is Jewish today? If yes, why the superfluous construction of the question? If not, what's the point of the question?
This is starting to feel like flogging a dead horse, which is more than likely a sign that this discussion has run its course, at least for me.

And you know what to do when the discussion runs its course.

However, I will try to provide a question which you can answer fully demonstrating that Israel isn't discriminatory. Take two cases. The first is an American man whose parents are both German Jews, but who has never observed Jewish practices. He eats non-kosher food, works on the sabbath, is atheist, etc. Example two is a child, born in Israel, son of Thai nationals working in Israel, but who are not Israeli citizens. Which of the two would find gaining Israeli citizenship easier? The one born in Israel, or the one born in America?

The one born in America, because he is Jewish, regardless of his level of observance.

Storyteller wrote:...like I said, it is not discriminatory and is not viewed as such when other states practice similar immigration policies.
Which other state has similar immigration policies?[/quote]
Germany, Finland, Greece, Ireland most post- Warsaw Bloc and post-USSR states (most notably Armenia and Ukraine)... You want a full list? South Korea even grants its citizenship to ethnic Koreans in Japan without the actual physical repatriation.
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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Postby UtgardLoki » Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:34 am

Storyteller wrote:
Storyteller wrote:...like I said, it is not discriminatory and is not viewed as such when other states practice similar immigration policies.
Which other state has similar immigration policies?

Germany, Finland, Greece, Ireland most post- Warsaw Bloc and post-USSR states (most notably Armenia and Ukraine)... You want a full list? South Korea even grants its citizenship to ethnic Koreans in Japan without the actual physical repatriation.
I fixed the layout. :)
Storyteller, your reply actually raises issues that show how dissimilar Israel's immigration policies are. For the purposes of Israel's Law of Return, Jewish converts from outside Israel are entitled to immigration and citizenship. Perhaps Storyteller can provide instructions on how to convert to German? Or Finnish? And what exactly is the Irish equivalent of halakha?
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Postby Storyteller » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:48 am

UtgardLoki wrote:Storyteller, your reply actually raises issues that show how dissimilar Israel's immigration policies are. For the purposes of Israel's Law of Return, Jewish converts from outside Israel are entitled to immigration and citizenship.

Which makes Israel's approach to repatriation more inclusive than the ethnic-only approach of other states with repatriation laws, not less- so what exactly is the problem?
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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Postby vison » Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:02 pm

Storyteller wrote:
UtgardLoki wrote:Storyteller, your reply actually raises issues that show how dissimilar Israel's immigration policies are. For the purposes of Israel's Law of Return, Jewish converts from outside Israel are entitled to immigration and citizenship.

Which makes Israel's approach to repatriation more inclusive than the ethnic-only approach of other states with repatriation laws, not less- so what exactly is the problem?


Suppose every Jew in the world decided to move to Israel?
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Postby portia » Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:47 pm

I do not like that idea. For one thing, the postage on my Holiday cards would skyrocket.
Yes, I am kidding, although that is one things that would happen.
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Postby Storyteller » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:58 am

vison wrote:
Storyteller wrote:
UtgardLoki wrote:Storyteller, your reply actually raises issues that show how dissimilar Israel's immigration policies are. For the purposes of Israel's Law of Return, Jewish converts from outside Israel are entitled to immigration and citizenship.

Which makes Israel's approach to repatriation more inclusive than the ethnic-only approach of other states with repatriation laws, not less- so what exactly is the problem?


Suppose every Jew in the world decided to move to Israel?

Okay. What's the downside?
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Postby vison » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:40 am

Storyteller wrote:
vison wrote:
Storyteller wrote:
UtgardLoki wrote:Storyteller, your reply actually raises issues that show how dissimilar Israel's immigration policies are. For the purposes of Israel's Law of Return, Jewish converts from outside Israel are entitled to immigration and citizenship.

Which makes Israel's approach to repatriation more inclusive than the ethnic-only approach of other states with repatriation laws, not less- so what exactly is the problem?


Suppose every Jew in the world decided to move to Israel?

Okay. What's the downside?


I don't know. What is the downside? Do you have room for everyone? Housing? Jobs? Schools?

Although I probably shouldn't say it, you might have to make room for them. And how, one asks, does a nation make room for lots of the people it likes? Generally by getting rid of the people it doesn't like.

Of course, nothing of that nature could ever happen in Israel. So one does ask what the answer could be.

Only a hypothetical question, of course. Just like my original question.

Yes, of course I'm trying to start a fight. Things are too quiet around here.

Must be the Holiday Season. :)
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Postby Storyteller » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:54 am

vison wrote:
Storyteller wrote:
vison wrote:
Storyteller wrote:
UtgardLoki wrote:Storyteller, your reply actually raises issues that show how dissimilar Israel's immigration policies are. For the purposes of Israel's Law of Return, Jewish converts from outside Israel are entitled to immigration and citizenship.

Which makes Israel's approach to repatriation more inclusive than the ethnic-only approach of other states with repatriation laws, not less- so what exactly is the problem?


Suppose every Jew in the world decided to move to Israel?

Okay. What's the downside?


I don't know. What is the downside? Do you have room for everyone? Housing? Jobs? Schools?

You reckon that is UtgardLoki's concern here? Whether we have enough schools and jobs?

Although I probably shouldn't say it, you might have to make room for them. And how, one asks, does a nation make room for lots of the people it likes? Generally by getting rid of the people it doesn't like.

Of course, nothing of that nature could ever happen in Israel. So one does ask what the answer could be.

Only a hypothetical question, of course. Just like my original question.

Never ask me rhetorical questions. You know I'll answer them :)

There's always a way, vison. Right after its creation, war-wrecked Israel absorbed in a single generation a number of immigrants roughly equal to its population. It would hardly be more challenging to pull off a similar feat now, when Israel is much wealthier and better equipped for the task.
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Postby hamlet » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:01 pm

Storyteller wrote:Never ask me rhetorical questions. You know I'll answer them :)

There's always a way, vison. Right after its creation, war-wrecked Israel absorbed in a single generation a number of immigrants roughly equal to its population. It would hardly be more challenging to pull off a similar feat now, when Israel is much wealthier and better equipped for the task.


Actually, I think she was more along the lines of implying that in order to "make room" that Israel would begin deporting "undesireables" (i.e., non-Jews or some such). In effect, the ethnic cleansing of Israel to be all-Jew.
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Postby vison » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:27 pm

hamlet wrote:
Storyteller wrote:Never ask me rhetorical questions. You know I'll answer them :)

There's always a way, vison. Right after its creation, war-wrecked Israel absorbed in a single generation a number of immigrants roughly equal to its population. It would hardly be more challenging to pull off a similar feat now, when Israel is much wealthier and better equipped for the task.


Actually, I think she was more along the lines of implying that in order to "make room" that Israel would begin deporting "undesireables" (i.e., non-Jews or some such). In effect, the ethnic cleansing of Israel to be all-Jew.


Well, not quite. I don't think that Israel would indulge in "ethnic cleansing" but I wonder just what would happen.

Storyteller, the miracle of the loaves and fishes only happened once.
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Postby hamlet » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:29 pm

vison wrote:Well, not quite. I don't think that Israel would indulge in "ethnic cleansing" but I wonder just what would happen.


Then what was your purpose in bringing up "Although I probably shouldn't say it, you might have to make room for them. And how, one asks, does a nation make room for lots of the people it likes? Generally by getting rid of the people it doesn't like." other than to imply ethnic cleansing or, at the very least, mass deportation of undesireables?
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Postby vison » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:46 pm

hamlet wrote:
vison wrote:Well, not quite. I don't think that Israel would indulge in "ethnic cleansing" but I wonder just what would happen.


Then what was your purpose in bringing up "Although I probably shouldn't say it, you might have to make room for them. And how, one asks, does a nation make room for lots of the people it likes? Generally by getting rid of the people it doesn't like." other than to imply ethnic cleansing or, at the very least, mass deportation of undesireables?


It doesn't "imply ethic cleansing" unless you want it to. Mass deportation? Likewise.

But nonetheless, questions like that do come up. I can't think of a case where it wasn't "ethnic cleansing" or "mass deportation", but those two methods are surely not the only means, are they?

Or, maybe, Israel might be able to absorb millions more people without any fuss at all.
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Postby Storyteller » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:49 pm

vison wrote:
hamlet wrote:
Storyteller wrote:Never ask me rhetorical questions. You know I'll answer them :)

There's always a way, vison. Right after its creation, war-wrecked Israel absorbed in a single generation a number of immigrants roughly equal to its population. It would hardly be more challenging to pull off a similar feat now, when Israel is much wealthier and better equipped for the task.


Actually, I think she was more along the lines of implying that in order to "make room" that Israel would begin deporting "undesireables" (i.e., non-Jews or some such). In effect, the ethnic cleansing of Israel to be all-Jew.


Well, not quite. I don't think that Israel would indulge in "ethnic cleansing" but I wonder just what would happen.

So why even bring it up if you don't mean it? Just because it's fashionable?

Storyteller, the miracle of the loaves and fishes only happened once.

vison, I myself came to Israel as part of an immigration wave which many people thought was too big for Israel to absorb. Proportionate to the population, it was the equivalent of the US absorbing 60 million new immigrants in ten years. Somehow, it only made Israel stronger and wealthier in the long run.

Loaves, fishes... :P
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Postby hamlet » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:50 pm

vison wrote:
hamlet wrote:
vison wrote:Well, not quite. I don't think that Israel would indulge in "ethnic cleansing" but I wonder just what would happen.


Then what was your purpose in bringing up "Although I probably shouldn't say it, you might have to make room for them. And how, one asks, does a nation make room for lots of the people it likes? Generally by getting rid of the people it doesn't like." other than to imply ethnic cleansing or, at the very least, mass deportation of undesireables?


It doesn't "imply ethic cleansing" unless you want it to. Mass deportation? Likewise.

But nonetheless, questions like that do come up. I can't think of a case where it wasn't "ethnic cleansing" or "mass deportation", but those two methods are surely not the only means, are they?

Or, maybe, Israel might be able to absorb millions more people without any fuss at all.


You're right. It doesn't imply it. Mea Culpa.

It outright states it.
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Postby vison » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:57 pm

And your point is: what, exactly?

Storyteller tells me that Israel could absorb millions more people and I want to know how and you have nothing better to do than be snotty and make sly accusations?

If Storyteller wants to be snotty to me, that's fine. He lives there, and he might have something clever to say. He usually does.

I don't see how a small land could absorb millions of incomers without a great deal of disruption. However, since it's not likely to happen, it is only a hypothetical question.
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Postby RoseMorninStar » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:05 pm

Actually the 'miracle' and symbolism of loaves & fishes is documented in older myths, such as the Egyptian myth of Horus.

vison wrote:I don't know. What is the downside? Do you have room for everyone? Housing? Jobs? Schools?

Although I probably shouldn't say it, you might have to make room for them. And how, one asks, does a nation make room for lots of the people it likes? Generally by getting rid of the people it doesn't like.
This was precisely my thought. The more Jewish people.. the easier to perhaps 'deal' with the Palestinian 'issue'?
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Postby hamlet » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:06 pm

The only sly and snotty accusations I see are yours, that in order to "make room" for incoming immigrants Israel would have to remove others.

I have spoken quite clearly and questioned, again, quite clearly, why you felt the need to include that little tidbit in your post except as a sly, snide, and snotty accusation. As I see it, it can serve no other purpose.
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Postby Storyteller » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:09 pm

RoseMorninStar wrote:Actually the 'miracle' and symbolism of loaves & fishes is documented in older myths, such as the Egyptian myth of Horus.

vison wrote:I don't know. What is the downside? Do you have room for everyone? Housing? Jobs? Schools?

Although I probably shouldn't say it, you might have to make room for them. And how, one asks, does a nation make room for lots of the people it likes? Generally by getting rid of the people it doesn't like.
This was precisely my thought. The more Jewish people.. the easier to perhaps 'deal' with the Palestinian 'issue'?

Yup, that must be it. :roll:

I'm honestly fascinated by the thoughtless ease with which you, of all people, jumped on that particular bandwagon, Rose. There are people here who don't think before they speak; there are others for whom Israel is the stuff of dark paranoid fantasies. You've never been one of those. What gives?
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Postby vison » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:20 pm

Jeez, I dunno what Rose was thinking. But what I was thinking is very simple: how could a tiny land area absorb millions of incomers, house them, employ them, provide schools for them? Hospitals? Care for them in their old age?

Is there a plan in the government archives, in the event it happens?

Since the whole thrust of this thread has been that every Jew who wants go there is welcome and is automatically (??? is that right???) a citizen of Israel, what on earth would really happen in the real world if all of a sudden they took the State of Israel up on it?

Beyond that question I have no secret agenda. It's an honest question and the thing is, I bet there is no realistic answer.

And, what would become of all the non-Jewish Israelis? Is there really room for everyone?

I can imagine and ONLY imagine, what it would be like here in Canada -which has an enormous landmass and is rich in natural resources AND thinly populated - if all of a sudden even 2 million people showed up on our doorstep and had to be let in.
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Postby RoseMorninStar » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:08 pm

Thoughtless ease? Because you don't like what I had to say you presume it was said with thoughtless ease?

And just to be clear, I was in no way referring to ethnic cleansing. I was thinking more about sheer volume of persons vying for space/fighting over land, knowing that that bit of land is already highly contested by two divided groups who consider it to be crowded.

First of all.. to back up a bit.. when I considered & posted my comments on this thread I viewed this topic from a (much) broader scope than I believe you are, Storyteller. By that I mean I was not specifically considering Israel, or specifically Jewish persons.. and certainly not specifically you in my response. I believe we, as human beings, lose a great deal when we become too isolated, too insulated.. too homogeneous. It leaves us oblivious & blind to other human beings and their viewpoints, for better or worse. It creates all kinds of misunderstandings and fear. My opinion of this particular ad campaign has nothing to with my opinion of Israel or Jewish persons. I would think no more (or less) of this matter had it been another country, another religion, another race, in the same set of circumstances. All of the ads I saw had a negative rather than positive overtone-- laden with guilt, and I had to wonder.. why? There are so many other tacks that could have been taken that would have had more appeal.

There is a novel (which I have not read, but should) that was made into a movie, whose title has subsequently become a common epithet.. 'The Ugly American' It is a familiar phrase that has come to epitomize Americans whose innate arrogance, thoughtlessness and failure to understand the culture of others AND their judgment of everyone and everything else by American standards causes a myriad of problems.. Put another way.. wearing an attitude of Superior Nationalism on one's sleeve. And it isn't only Americans who can be 'ugly'.

When I read the initial post in this thread.. those are the things that came to mind about the ad campaign.
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Postby Jnyusa » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:39 pm

It's a fair question. (vison's question, that is. Rose and I cross-posted)

There are 13.2-13.4 Jews in the world, and ~5.7 million of them are in Israel, out of an Israeli population of ~7.6 million.

So if all the Jews in the world moved to Israel, Israel's population would roughly double. With a land area of 12,000 sq km and a population of 13 million, say, it comes out to about a tenth of a hectare for each person.

Rule of thumb for subsistence level agriculture is two hectares per person, but of course lots of modern economies exist by trade rather than by production for domestic consumption. For comparison, Switzerland currently has about half a hectare per person and does just fine.

The problem is more likely to be water than land. And energy, of course.
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Postby vison » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:57 pm

Excellent post, Rose.
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