The war on gay teens

Manwë was known for many things, but wisdom and power are two that lead the rest of his attributes. Join the Councils and discuss the more weighty matters of Tolkien Fandom.

The war on gay teens

Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:13 pm

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/ne ... s-20120202

the Anoka-Hennepin school district finds itself in the spotlight not only for the sheer number of suicides but because it is accused of having contributed to the death toll by cultivating an extreme anti-gay climate. "LGBTQ students don't feel safe at school," says Anoka Middle School for the Arts teacher Jefferson Fietek, using the acronym for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Questioning. "They're made to feel ashamed of who they are. They're bullied. And there's no one to stand up for them, because teachers are afraid of being fired."


Attention national politicians and hate groups (Yes, Focus on the Family is a hate group)

What you say does in fact have an effect on these poor kids. They have to hear it all day at school. Then guess what? They get to hear how unnatural and horrible they are from adults as well.
User avatar
Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 4490
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 3:40 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Top

Postby vison » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:36 am

And then there's this.

I don't know, Swordsman. I don't know why people are so hateful and I wish they weren't.

Kids can be awfully mean. And they can be mean even if they are not taught anti-gay stuff at home - it is a nasty part of teen "culture" and that's a fact. I think that, more than anything else, most kids want to fit in. And if fitting in means hating someone or something, they'll do it. Not many teens have the kind of character that will make them stand up for anyone "different".

I wish that wasn't so, too.
GM is alive.

Osama bin Laden is dead.
User avatar
vison
Ringbearer


 
Posts: 12696
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:15 pm
Top

Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:51 am

vison wrote:And then there's this.

I don't know, Swordsman. I don't know why people are so hateful and I wish they weren't.

Kids can be awfully mean. And they can be mean even if they are not taught anti-gay stuff at home - it is a nasty part of teen "culture" and that's a fact. I think that, more than anything else, most kids want to fit in. And if fitting in means hating someone or something, they'll do it. Not many teens have the kind of character that will make them stand up for anyone "different".

I wish that wasn't so, too.


I got from the story that it isn't even a "teen" thing. It's the willful ignoring it by adults because of their "values" that really bothered me.
User avatar
Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 4490
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 3:40 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Top

Postby frodolives668 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:44 pm

The thing that really gets to me is that their sexual preferences are their own business! Who do these kids attacking them think they are?

Just because a person doesn't love the way she's/he's "supposed to"*, doesn't mean that something's wrong with him. Prejudice against someone for being gay is as bad as prejudice for someone being black: A, they were born that way, B it's stupid and rather pointless to say these things, and C it's inneffective to whatever you're trying to prove unless your goal is to hurt someone and make yourself look like a certified jerk.

I'm sorry if I got a little carried away there, but what I'm tring to say is that even if you don't condone the way they operate, people are people. It's not like pointing things out will do anything any way. I try not to be prejudiced against people myself but there's one kind of people that I cannot stand and I feel it's perfectly alright to be prejudiced against: Jerks.


*I add the quote marks because I don't believe that people are meant to feel one way or another.
User avatar
frodolives668
Rider of the Mark
 
Posts: 602
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:01 am
Location: Loony Bin
Top

Postby Silverberry_Spritely » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:57 pm

I feel terribly, terribly bad for the young man, Justin, mentioned in the story. School is absolutely brutal on gay and transgendered youth; whether or not you "agree" with homosexuality, they need a safe place to vent their feelings with non-judgmental adults who will advocate for them, and compassionate peers with a commitment to end bullying.

That said, while it's sad the "bisexual" girls were bullied, it shouldn't be so much the focus of the article - Once again, it shows how we're more sympathetic towards bisexual women. I guess because more people find it "hot." Calling a girl a "c*** s*****" isn't prejudice against her as a GLBTQ person. While I don't think perceived or actual sexually active youth should be harmed, it bothers me kids like this will never get time in The Rolling Stone. Not sexy enough, I guess.

But, you know, a girl gets bullied and called ugly, we brand that GLBTQ discrimination and forget about the ones that aren't really heterosexual male fantasies. Not saying teen suicide isn't sad, but come on. What about the poor gay and trans kids who didn't choose death, and had life taken from them?
Silverberry_Spritely
Shield Bearer

 
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:59 pm
Location: The OTHER Party City
Top

Postby DeadRinger » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:51 pm

Well, these perverted kids should be ashamed of themselves and their disgusting lifestyle. It's because of people of their kind that the world is in the terrible state it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmlhUn8TvT0
User avatar
DeadRinger
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 1597
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:21 pm
Top

Postby AlexSnitzel » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:58 am

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/1 ... y%20Voices

Take a minute and watch the short video someone made of the guy's presentation.

The thing is, that kind of thing is not unique. At all. I grew up in a school where people said that kind of thing to us every Monday ("chapel" day) from 6th grade to 12th grade. "The average homosexual dies at the age of 42." I recall hearing practically that exact quote myself.

The result of all of that? Devastating psychological trauma. TORC was wonderful for me when I came out, gosh, 5 or 6 years ago? But for kids that don't have that kind of support network, it's no wonder they are off-ing themselves.

I've recently been reading reports and papers about gay kids who grew up in repressive cultural environments developing PTSD as adults. And that's regardless as to whether or not they come out of the closet, the trauma has to be dealt with. And in my opinion, it explains so much of the problems gay adults tend to have... namely, addictive, self-destructive behavior.
User avatar
AlexSnitzel
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 3309
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:44 pm
Location: Sunny South Carolina!
Top

Postby vison » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:59 am

Hey, excellent post, AlexSnitzel. I think you are right. :)
GM is alive.

Osama bin Laden is dead.
User avatar
vison
Ringbearer


 
Posts: 12696
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:15 pm
Top

Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:06 pm

I was really lucky, when I came out to my parent's there response was "ya and?"
User avatar
Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 4490
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 3:40 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Top

Postby AlexSnitzel » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:19 pm

Swordsman, that's really awesome. Hang onto those 'rents. ;) I dunno if my parents will ever get over their religious convictions and do the same, but ya know, while there's breath, there's hope. :-)

The power of indoctrination really amazes me. If you catch a child early enough and tell them something is a fact, and enough times, most likely that child is going to believe it for the rest of his life, no matter the evidence they are shown against it as an adult.

PS thanks Vison=)
User avatar
AlexSnitzel
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 3309
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:44 pm
Location: Sunny South Carolina!
Top

Postby RoseMorninStar » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:39 pm

Have any of you read this? What do you make of it?

Invisible Children funded by anti-gay Christian fundamentalist right
User avatar
RoseMorninStar
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 12800
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 10:34 pm
Location: North Shire
Top

Postby DeadRinger » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:13 am

RoseMorninStar wrote:Have any of you read this? What do you make of it?

Invisible Children funded by anti-gay Christian fundamentalist right


So it's one bunch of Christianists vs another. No surprises though - war and conflict is in the very nature of exclusivist religions.
User avatar
DeadRinger
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 1597
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:21 pm
Top

Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:52 am

RoseMorninStar wrote:Have any of you read this? What do you make of it?

Invisible Children funded by anti-gay Christian fundamentalist right


Not surprised, that Ugandan government we are supposed to love and support is the same government that was radicalized by American pastors into a bill they can only dream of here, death penalty for sodomy.
User avatar
Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 4490
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 3:40 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Top

Postby frodolives668 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:50 pm

The parents of a lot of kids in this reigon could be more supporting. I've had guys come out in our Drama Department before they told thier parents. Quote a few really awesome guys have been victimized. Girls too.

I myself, am bisexual. But I haven't told my parents or anyone else (until now) this because I know how they'll react. People at my high school constantly ask me if i'm a les, because I'm not dating [i]anyone[i/] right now. I have to lie. Is this fair? I see friends constantly victimized in the hallways. Is this proper? I see teens that have to hide their feelings and retreat into thier own sad worlds without a place to go. Is this right?

I know the story. First they ask for acceptance. Then they ask for tolerance. Then they ask to be ignored. After a while, a few stop asking for anything. Is this fair? Is this right? Is this proper? Is this how our world should be?
User avatar
frodolives668
Rider of the Mark
 
Posts: 602
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:01 am
Location: Loony Bin
Top

Postby ToshoftheWuffingas » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:47 am

Religion has a lot to answer for:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/20/d ... -in-1950s/

Records show that Henk Heithuis, at 20 years old, was considered a minor when he reported to police that had been sexually abused by priests in the Catholic boarding home where he lived. Two priests were ultimately convicted of abuse, but Heithuis was transferred from police custody to a Catholic psychiatric hospital and from there to St. Joseph Hospital in Veghel, where his testicles were removed.

Hospital officials say that the young man was surgically castrated at his own request, but no written record of his consent to the procedure exists. Heithuis died in a car crash two years later in 1958
User avatar
ToshoftheWuffingas
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 2267
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:31 am
Top

Postby The Nameless Thing » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:07 am

IMHO, I see this as just another form of bullying. The football team always stuck together like a defacto gang and picked on the small geeky guys.

The ‘pretty’ girls always shuned the plain girls.

And depending on the ability of the ‘receiver’ to brush off this treatment, it could be a very difficult period of their life.

But I always saw this as a high school thing which most bully’s grow out of in college.
User avatar
The Nameless Thing
Ranger of the North
 
Posts: 1308
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2000 1:00 am
Location: The Nameless Inn
Top

Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:45 am

The Nameless Thing wrote:IMHO, I see this as just another form of bullying. The football team always stuck together like a defacto gang and picked on the small geeky guys.

The ‘pretty’ girls always shuned the plain girls.

And depending on the ability of the ‘receiver’ to brush off this treatment, it could be a very difficult period of their life.

But I always saw this as a high school thing which most bully’s grow out of in college.


It happens in college as well. In fact it might be even worse in some instances due to the dorm living, especially for men.
User avatar
Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 4490
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 3:40 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Top

Postby hamlet » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:54 am

Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:It happens in college as well. In fact it might be even worse in some instances due to the dorm living, especially for men.


Everybody gets teased, made fun of, hazed, etc. Nobody is immune to that.

Hell, I got fun of in college for being straight, white, and male and having, according to some quarters, precisely no interesting facets to my identity. I was, to them, "The Man." :roll:

Yes, some groups get it worse than others, but nobody's immune or unique in this.
User avatar
hamlet
Ringbearer
 
Posts: 10562
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 12:01 pm
Top

Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:36 pm

hamlet wrote:
Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:It happens in college as well. In fact it might be even worse in some instances due to the dorm living, especially for men.


Everybody gets teased, made fun of, hazed, etc. Nobody is immune to that.

Hell, I got fun of in college for being straight, white, and male and having, according to some quarters, precisely no interesting facets to my identity. I was, to them, "The Man." :roll:

Yes, some groups get it worse than others, but nobody's immune or unique in this.


Did you constantly have to hear "That's so straight!" Or hear about how much people hated "fa*****" Or have to date someone in secret so the people you live with never found out?
User avatar
Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 4490
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 3:40 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Top

Postby hamlet » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:42 pm

Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:Did you constantly have to hear "That's so straight!" Or hear about how much people hated "fa*****" Or have to date someone in secret so the people you live with never found out?


No, but I often did, and still do, hear about how straight white people are evil racist, sexist, (insert your "-ist" here) and are the bane of the world.

No, I'm not claiming to have been repressed, or "had it bad" by any measure. I'm saying that catching crap is universal and running around pretending that your particular brand of it is unique is a bit annoying.
User avatar
hamlet
Ringbearer
 
Posts: 10562
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 12:01 pm
Top

Postby Storyteller » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:06 pm

hamlet wrote:
Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:Did you constantly have to hear "That's so straight!" Or hear about how much people hated "fa*****" Or have to date someone in secret so the people you live with never found out?


No, but I often did, and still do, hear about how straight white people are evil racist, sexist, (insert your "-ist" here) and are the bane of the world.

No, I'm not claiming to have been repressed, or "had it bad" by any measure. I'm saying that catching crap is universal and running around pretending that your particular brand of it is unique is a bit annoying.

But it is unique, that's the problem. It's not your garden-variety crap they're catching.
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
User avatar
Storyteller
Mariner

 
Posts: 7064
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2002 7:46 am
Top

Postby hamlet » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:18 pm

Storyteller wrote:But it is unique, that's the problem. It's not your garden-variety crap they're catching.


Wasn't referring to the institutionalized or particularly virulent anti-gay stuff. That is evil and wrong and needs to be dealt with.

I'm referring specifically to the comments that Swordsman made:

Did you constantly have to hear "That's so straight!" Or hear about how much people hated "fa*****" Or have to date someone in secret so the people you live with never found out?
User avatar
hamlet
Ringbearer
 
Posts: 10562
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 12:01 pm
Top

Postby Storyteller » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:03 pm

hamlet, those things are arguably worse than the "particularly virulent stuff", because that is prejudice integrated into the culture and the language to the extent that people barely notice anymore. Caveman-level hatred is easy to identify, therefore easier to confront; it's the poison already in the cultural bloodstream that's the real challenge.
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
User avatar
Storyteller
Mariner

 
Posts: 7064
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2002 7:46 am
Top

Postby hamlet » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:14 pm

Storyteller wrote:hamlet, those things are arguably worse than the "particularly virulent stuff", because that is prejudice integrated into the culture and the language to the extent that people barely notice anymore. Caveman-level hatred is easy to identify, therefore easier to confront; it's the poison already in the cultural bloodstream that's the real challenge.


But it is not unique. It's universal. There is no group or individual spared from it, though as I said, not everybody gets physically hurt because of it (though it happens more often than people like to give credit).

I'm not saying it's not bad. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm not saying one version isn't worse or lesser than another.

I'm saying only that it's pretty much everybody. Humans are horrible to each other and it doesn't matter what you identify or don't identify as, somebody (or a lot of somebodies) will find something horrible to say about you or do to you. The only thing that can be done about it is to confront it as it happens and, IMO, not pretend like any particular brand of stupid is special or more important than any other.

In the meantime, the institutionalized versions can, and have in the past, blow up into things that lead not to individual cases of malice, but wholesale slaughter, as you can probably attest. Those are, IMO, what should be focused on rather than the individual bigotries of typical folks, which is a matter of law enforcement.
User avatar
hamlet
Ringbearer
 
Posts: 10562
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 12:01 pm
Top

Postby TheEllipticalDisillusion » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:15 pm

Some of the crap students catch is part of the normal growing process, but gay teens probably have it worse on the whole than anyone being called "the Man." It's nice to think that the ribbing we (white, straight, college educated, male and having no interesting facets to our identities) experienced is the same... just ribbing, but gay teens are marginalized more so than us vanillas. We're represented everywhere.

The worst kind of bullying is that which is tacitly endorsed by the school itself. That is a deep-seeded cultural issue at that particular school.
User avatar
TheEllipticalDisillusion
Mariner

 
Posts: 6454
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2001 7:42 pm
Top

Postby hamlet » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:20 pm

TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:Some of the crap students catch is part of the normal growing process, but gay teens probably have it worse on the whole than anyone being called "the Man." It's nice to think that the ribbing we (white, straight, college educated, male and having no interesting facets to our identities) experienced is the same... just ribbing, but gay teens are marginalized more so than us vanillas. We're represented everywhere.

The worst kind of bullying is that which is tacitly endorsed by the school itself. That is a deep-seeded cultural issue at that particular school.


And you touch upon what I'm saying. The tacit approval/enforcement of the school is what makes the difference. It excuses it and encourages it when, otherwise, it's simply a matter of individuals breaking the rules and requiring correction. I.e., it's not ok to make fun of people for being Insert Descriptor Here. There are rules about it and there are prescribed punishments. When the school encourages it, either overtly or tacitly, it becomes a different animal.

And again, no, I'm not saying that "vanillas" got it worse or as bad. I'm saying that pretending that it doesn't exist or it isn't harmful can be just as bad as pretending that gay people aren't harrased/harmed or that they "deserve" it.
User avatar
hamlet
Ringbearer
 
Posts: 10562
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 12:01 pm
Top

Postby TheEllipticalDisillusion » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:55 pm

And again, no, I'm not saying that "vanillas" got it worse or as bad. I'm saying that pretending that it doesn't exist or it isn't harmful can be just as bad as pretending that gay people aren't harrased/harmed or that they "deserve" it.


Fair enough. We should be correcting all forms of bullying, but I imagine there is a level of bullying that gets overlooked (vanilla bullying) because it seems part of an adolescent's life.

I think the high number of suicides by gay teens (there seems to be a lot) makes bullying of gay teens a more pressing issue than bullying in general.
User avatar
TheEllipticalDisillusion
Mariner

 
Posts: 6454
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2001 7:42 pm
Top

Postby Swordsman_Of_The_Tower » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:26 am

hamlet wrote:
Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:Did you constantly have to hear "That's so straight!" Or hear about how much people hated "fa*****" Or have to date someone in secret so the people you live with never found out?


No, but I often did, and still do, hear about how straight white people are evil racist, sexist, (insert your "-ist" here) and are the bane of the world.

No, I'm not claiming to have been repressed, or "had it bad" by any measure. I'm saying that catching crap is universal and running around pretending that your particular brand of it is unique is a bit annoying.


I guess your college was about a 180 from mine. Do you wear all Nike clothes? Do you wear hats for out of town sports teams? Are you a criminal justice major? Do you watch a lot of CBS crime procedurals? That was roughly 70% of the men at my college. Another 25% were urban black kids. Things got to the point once in my dorm we had to have the head of Residential life lay down the law about referring to the building where the urban education program students lived (the one I was in) as "The Jungle"
User avatar
Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 4490
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 3:40 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Top

Postby hamlet » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:52 am

Swordsman_Of_The_Tower wrote:I guess your college was about a 180 from mine. Do you wear all Nike clothes? Do you wear hats for out of town sports teams? Are you a criminal justice major? Do you watch a lot of CBS crime procedurals? That was roughly 70% of the men at my college. Another 25% were urban black kids. Things got to the point once in my dorm we had to have the head of Residential life lay down the law about referring to the building where the urban education program students lived (the one I was in) as "The Jungle"


My university was a different animal.

Sure, we had those you mentioned, but the vast majority of our population was "activists" of every stripe, color, and creed. Some of whom were downright freaky. The only strange people were those who, like me, weren't activists and so landed on everybody's hate list. I was too white, not white enough, too straight, not straight enough, too conservative, too liberal, too apathetic, too quiet, too whatever and I ended up developing a deep and abiding distrust of political activism because of it.

If you've ever seen the movie PCU, my school was a great deal like that, but dramatically less white.
User avatar
hamlet
Ringbearer
 
Posts: 10562
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 12:01 pm
Top


Return to Philosophy: Councils of Manwë

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron