Trayvon Martin

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Postby vison » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:15 am

I don't know that he's "murdering scum", exactly. The wrong man in the wrong place at the wrong time? IF it was murder, yes, he should pay whatever penalty the crime requires, but I think he'll feel like he was betrayed or unfairly picked on.

I think he's . . . not sure how to put this in an understandable way . . . he's part of the culture? No, I don't mean that all Americans want to carry guns and shoot people, but there are those who do and he was put in a place where he could.

The whole atmosphere is poisonous. Maybe I'm overreacting, but every time I go to the US I feel like things are getting worse in the "personal safety" sense. I never used to feel uneasy, I felt like I was at home almost, but not now.

It could be because I spent two days in a crowd composed of 2 elements: Chinese, Korean, Greek and Russian buyers in one room and American farmers in another. Most of whom are so far Right that they make Rick Santorum look like a Socialist. I KNOW they do NOT represent all Americans!!!! I know so many nice Americans, many of them my Imaginary friends, (here, elsewhere on the Interweebs) but many in real life. But these people, who are all good family people and work hard and do all those things, are at the same time so staggeringly ignorant and provincial and paranoid it's horrible.

They all HATE Mr. Obama. Some of them are not afraid to refer to him as a n****er. "Get rid of the n****r" is their main political concern. They love Glenn Beck, many of these people are Mormons and he's a fellow Mormon.

Their livelihood depends on those foreigners. The Chinese, Koreans, Russians, and Greeks. Absolutely DEPENDS. They resent that. They blame Mr. Obama for that, too. It's so weird.

I don't know. I want the US back from when I was a kid and Uncle Sam was really our good uncle, the rich one who lived next door. I guess a lot of Americans do, too. :(
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Postby Minardil » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:20 am

hamlet wrote:
Cerin wrote:
The situation didn't go wrong until someone actually attacked someone else, or called him a name, or otherwise created a confrontation.

The situation went wrong when Zimmerman exited his car and pursued a fellow citizen with a firearm for no reason. He is not an officer of the law, it was not his place to do that, there was no justification for his action in this case, and the fact that he did it led to the death of an innocent man.


It wasn't for "no reason." It was for a reason that you don't agree with. There's a difference.


I think maybe the phrase you two should be discussing is "probable cause"

Here's the wiki article on the term:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause


And here's a quote from the article:

Definitions in the United States of America

The best-known definition of probable cause is "a reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime".[2] Another common definition is "a reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true".[3] Notable in this definition is a lack of requirement for public position or public authority of the individual making the recognition, allowing for use of the term by citizens and/or the general public.

In the context of warrants, the Oxford Companion to American Law defines probable cause as "information sufficient to warrant a prudent person's belief that the wanted individual had committed a crime (for an arrest warrant) or that evidence of a crime or contraband would be found in a search (for a search warrant)". "Probable cause" is a stronger standard of evidence than a reasonable suspicion, but weaker than what is required to secure a criminal conviction. Even hearsay can supply probable cause if it is from a reliable source or supported by other evidence, according to the Aguilar–Spinelli test.


Zimmerman obviously had a "reason" for following Martin, but I am not convinced that he had "probable cause" to do so.
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Postby Jnyusa » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:20 am

basil wrote:It seems that Zimmerman is a fast healer


Oh man, Officer Tim Smith filed a false police report? That just made it the township's business, where before it was just one loser with no deep pockets at fault.

Martin's family is going to sue that township into oblivion.
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Postby hamlet » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:26 am

Vison: That atmosphere is not unique to, endemic within, or particular to the US. It's world wide.

People who feel powerless and frustrated that the machinery of State intended to protect them cannot or will not do so will either despair, or begin to take matters into their own hands. It's worldwide. it is, by definition, what spawns things like Neighborhood Watch which takes as its mission to keep an eye on the neighborhood.

And as for the farmers . . . farmes tend to be extremely conservative, those in the midwest (inland portions of the US) even moreso. They also tend towards casual racism (i.e., they might talk a lot with some words you find horrifying, but when it comes down to it, they treat everybody individually with tremendous respect - I've watched some of them use the "N Word" in one breath and in the second offer a black neighbor several thousand dollars to pay his mortgage when he couldn't that month) and a very strong anti-government streak.
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Postby hamlet » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:27 am

Minardil wrote:I think maybe the phrase you two should be discussing is "probable cause"


Zimmerman obviously had a "reason" for following Martin, but I am not convinced that he had "probable cause" to do so.


Yes, I know about probable cause. I was responding to Cerin's words specifically.
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Postby IrisBrandybuck » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:47 am

vision, I want to clarify or help clarify...?
I think he's . . . not sure how to put this in an understandable way . . . he's part of the culture? No, I don't mean that all Americans want to carry guns and shoot people, but there are those who do and he was put in a place where he could.


Are you thinking of the type of person who is thought of as a "police junkie?" Kind of wants to be part of that culture but for whatever reason can't be...didn't have the opportunity or washed out or whatever, and so he does the next best thing in his mind...becomes a security guard, joins a neighborhood watch, etc? He becomes somewhat of a vigilante at that point...he's not there to help, he's there to fulfill some selfish desire of his own.

Now, following the train of thought, if so, someone will come across/have evidence of this. It will just be a matter of time before it comes out.
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Postby Griffon64 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:04 am

hamlet wrote:
Griffon64 wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/29/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1

shows a couple interesting things: Zimmerman was at least detained in handcuffs, and he doesn't show any injuries to the back of his head in this video. His attorney says the video doesn't prove or disprove anything.


To be entirely fair, the video isn't clear enough to show things in great detail. Treated wounds may simply not be visible.


Yeah, the article states that one of Zimmerman's friends claims that Zimmerman told him that the police cleaned him up at the scene. I don't know whether police officers typically clean up people at the scene or not. It seems as if his injuries would have been evidence worth photographing, maybe? I don't know anything about how a crime scene is handled. In the video he certainly doesn't seem to have any visible trauma, and he also moves easily. Having never had a broken nose, I won't know if it would be swelled or discolored so soon after an alleged incident or not.
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Postby hamlet » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:10 am

Griffon64 wrote:Yeah, the article states that one of Zimmerman's friends claims that Zimmerman told him that the police cleaned him up at the scene. I don't know whether police officers typically clean up people at the scene or not. It seems as if his injuries would have been evidence worth photographing, maybe? I don't know anything about how a crime scene is handled. In the video he certainly doesn't seem to have any visible trauma, and he also moves easily. Having never had a broken nose, I won't know if it would be swelled or discolored so soon after an alleged incident or not.


EMS would certainly have cleaned him up a bit at the scene, at least wiped the blood away from the wound and closed it. Don't know how much blood and violence was involved, but head wounds do bleed disproportionately so it's possible that a minor wound could be treated and be effectively invisible to the camera perhaps.

Also, who's to say the police didn't take photographs of the injuries? All this article says is that a camera in the station caught this image. Again, assuming things.
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Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:10 am

vison wrote:I think he's . . . not sure how to put this in an understandable way . . . he's part of the culture? No, I don't mean that all Americans want to carry guns and shoot people, but there are those who do and he was put in a place where he could.


This again?
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Postby Cerin » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:19 am

portia wrote:
Cerin wrote:
portia wrote:What if Martin had been a robber or had killed someone in the complex because Zimmerman did not follow him?

I am astonished that you are posing these bizarre and baseless hypotheticals. Martin wasn't a robber, and he wasn't a killer, and there were absolutely no grounds to suppose that he was. He wasn't doing anything wrong! Your 'what ifs' are preposterous. Is this what we've come to? Arm yourselves and pursue your fellow citizens; they might be up to no good?

Hindsight is certainly a wonderful thing, isn't it?

The issue isn't hindsight, portia. The issue is imputing evil based on nothing but one's own fancies and prejudices. The boy did nothing to indicate that he was a robber or a killer!


Dave_LF wrote:I don't know what things are like in Florida, but in Michigan, GOP-sponsored tax cuts and falling property tax revenue has gutted police departments to the point where "report suspicious persons to the police, then go about your business" is a way to virtually guarantee that nothing will happen; certainly not before the person in question is long gone.

He wasn't a suspicious person, i.e., was doing nothing to arouse suspicion. His only offenses were his skin color and his attire.


hamlet wrote:
Cerin wrote:
The situation didn't go wrong until someone actually attacked someone else, or called him a name, or otherwise created a confrontation.

The situation went wrong when Zimmerman exited his car and pursued a fellow citizen with a firearm for no reason. He is not an officer of the law, it was not his place to do that, there was no justification for his action in this case, and the fact that he did it led to the death of an innocent man.


It wasn't for "no reason." It was for a reason that you don't agree with. There's a difference.

Oh, certainly there is a reason Zimmerman exited his car. He is a racist self-appointed vigilante, he saw a 'coon' walking down the street, and he was fed up with 'coons' always getting away.

He had no legitimate cause to exit his car and pursue someone behaving in a lawful manner.
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Postby hamlet » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:33 am

On second thought, I'm not going to bother with this reply. Not worth the effort.
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Postby Griffon64 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:03 am

hamlet wrote:
Griffon64 wrote:Yeah, the article states that one of Zimmerman's friends claims that Zimmerman told him that the police cleaned him up at the scene. I don't know whether police officers typically clean up people at the scene or not. It seems as if his injuries would have been evidence worth photographing, maybe? I don't know anything about how a crime scene is handled. In the video he certainly doesn't seem to have any visible trauma, and he also moves easily. Having never had a broken nose, I won't know if it would be swelled or discolored so soon after an alleged incident or not.


EMS would certainly have cleaned him up a bit at the scene, at least wiped the blood away from the wound and closed it. Don't know how much blood and violence was involved, but head wounds do bleed disproportionately so it's possible that a minor wound could be treated and be effectively invisible to the camera perhaps.

Also, who's to say the police didn't take photographs of the injuries? All this article says is that a camera in the station caught this image. Again, assuming things.

Well now, there you go assuming things yourself. :) I didn't say that I think that they didn't take photographs, or for that matter that there wasn't any injuries to take photos of. I was thinking that it was a pity that the video quality wasn't good enough to show anything conclusively, and that led me to think of things that would be more conclusive, such as photographs. So I said that I thought that photographs would have been worth taking. Therefore, I expect that those photographs could turn up in a trail, if any. They certainly seem important evidence, don't they? If he wasn't injured, how can he claim Martin attacked him viciously enough to warrant shooting Martin dead in self defense? One would guess that the police releasing him in this way points to the fact that there were, in fact, wounds, else what would they base the release on? But again, this is just speculation from someone who does not know anything about crime scene stuff.

I've had a few wounds to the head in my day ( some people says it shows ;) ) and my experience taught me that they a) bleed like crazy b) tend to seep when they're fresh, even when they're closed, necessitating you to hold something to the spot for a bit if you want to stay clean, and c) hurts like something special. My wounds were kind of median, taking seven stitches to close in one case, 4 in the other ( this one was to the back of the head ) and two in the last case. I bled all over my clothes in all cases. I note that Zimmerman neither shows blood spots on his attire, nor wears a jacket that would show blood stains very well. But, without any details on the nature of his injuries, all I'm doing is observing what I see. He could have been laying down on his back bleeding until treatment, his nose may not have bled ( no experience with a broken nose ), etc. I'm just observing certain details.
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Postby hamlet » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:18 am

Griffon64 wrote:Well now, there you go assuming things yourself. :) I didn't say that I think that they didn't take photographs, or for that matter that there wasn't any injuries to take photos of. I was thinking that it was a pity that the video quality wasn't good enough to show anything conclusively, and that led me to think of things that would be more conclusive, such as photographs. So I said that I thought that photographs would have been worth taking. Therefore, I expect that those photographs could turn up in a trail, if any. They certainly seem important evidence, don't they? If he wasn't injured, how can he claim Martin attacked him viciously enough to warrant shooting Martin dead in self defense? One would guess that the police releasing him in this way points to the fact that there were, in fact, wounds, else what would they base the release on? But again, this is just speculation from someone who does not know anything about crime scene stuff.

I've had a few wounds to the head in my day ( some people says it shows ;) ) and my experience taught me that they a) bleed like crazy b) tend to seep when they're fresh, even when they're closed, necessitating you to hold something to the spot for a bit if you want to stay clean, and c) hurts like something special. My wounds were kind of median, taking seven stitches to close in one case, 4 in the other ( this one was to the back of the head ) and two in the last case. I bled all over my clothes in all cases. I note that Zimmerman neither shows blood spots on his attire, nor wears a jacket that would show blood stains very well. But, without any details on the nature of his injuries, all I'm doing is observing what I see. He could have been laying down on his back bleeding until treatment, his nose may not have bled ( no experience with a broken nose ), etc. I'm just observing certain details.


All entirely true. The video would seem to show that any injuries Zimmerman might have sustained, if any, were far less severe than he has made out, or miraculously don't show on camera. Personally, I tend to believe that there was at least some injury since we do see a police officer looking at the area at least and, on top of that, he was released without incarceration based on the self defense clause of the Stand Your Ground statutes, which would imply that there was enough evidence there to support some kind of injury that could be construed as having resulted from an assault by Martin.

Otherwise, you have to infer the institutionalized racism, corruption, and general incompetance of the entire Florida justice system and police force, which is a lot of assuming. Occam's razor, at this point, suggests to me that there were some sort of injury there, though I suspect far less severe than Zimmerman makes out.

Now, as to if that exonerates Zimmerman, I'd say not at all even if Martin did assault him. Zimmerman precipitated the whole of the incident and shouulders the responsibility for it.

But again, legally speaking, it may make all the difference.
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Postby vison » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:47 am

Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
vison wrote:I think he's . . . not sure how to put this in an understandable way . . . he's part of the culture? No, I don't mean that all Americans want to carry guns and shoot people, but there are those who do and he was put in a place where he could.


This again?


Yeah.

Reality bites, eh?

And, yes, from what I've read and heard, Mr. Zimmerman seems like a "police junkie", there are lots of them out there. I do hope that this incident means he will never actually make it onto a police force. They have enough cowboys as it is.
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Postby Dave_LF » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:06 am

Cerin wrote:
Dave_LF wrote:I don't know what things are like in Florida, but in Michigan, GOP-sponsored tax cuts and falling property tax revenue has gutted police departments to the point where "report suspicious persons to the police, then go about your business" is a way to virtually guarantee that nothing will happen; certainly not before the person in question is long gone.

He wasn't a suspicious person, i.e., was doing nothing to arouse suspicion. His only offenses were his skin color and his attire.


How do you know? Were you there? You're assuming an awful lot.

Cerin wrote:Oh, certainly there is a reason Zimmerman exited his car. He is a racist self-appointed vigilante, he saw a 'coon' walking down the street, and he was fed up with 'coons' always getting away.


It's already been pointed out at least twice that there's no evidence he used a racial slur (that one or the other one). Again, you assume too much.
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Postby Cerin » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:12 am

Dave_LF wrote:It's already been pointed out to you at least twice that there's no evidence he said anything like that.

I must have missed that. I'm going on the report that he is heard on the tape using the word 'coon', and saying 'they always get away.' Has that been revised?
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Postby Dave_LF » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:16 am

Some people who listen to the tape hear that word, some do not. CNN sent it to experts who enhanced the audio etc., and their only conclusion was "too garbled to tell".

ETA: Here's a link to one place where that's mentioned.

I initially wrote "pointed out to you" but edited it to "pointed out" after the fact because I decided it wasn't you after all. But evidently you'd already seen and quoted the original before I changed it. So sorry about that mistake.
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Postby Cerin » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:18 am

Thanks, Dave. I'll refrain from repeating that again if it isn't certain.
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Postby Minardil » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:43 am

All entirely true. The video would seem to show that any injuries Zimmerman might have sustained, if any, were far less severe than he has made out, or miraculously don't show on camera. Personally, I tend to believe that there was at least some injury since we do see a police officer looking at the area at least and, on top of that, he was released without incarceration based on the self defense clause of the Stand Your Ground statutes, which would imply that there was enough evidence there to support some kind of injury that could be construed as having resulted from an assault by Martin.


I just watched the video, and while I can't say for certain whether or not his nose was broken at that time (though I have to say that his nose appears to be uninjured, certainly there is no blood on his face), I can say that it definitely appears that he has absolutely NO injuries to the back of his shaved head. There is absolutely no blood, no evidence of any cuts or gashes, nothing.

Taken by itself, that doesn't necessarily mean anything, because as I recall Zimmerman was knocked down in the grass, so I imagine his head could have been pounded into the grass several times, which would have been frightening to Zimmerman, but possibley non-injurious (at least not leaving any obvious marks or breaking the skin). BUT, I understand the police report, and Zimmerman, and even Zimmerman's friend and father all claim that he was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head and that his nose was broken. There is nothing in the video to support those claims and quite a bit that would tend to discredit them.
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Postby hamlet » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:45 am

Perhaps they gave him time to run home to change his clothes and shower? :P
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Postby Minardil » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:51 am

hamlet wrote:Perhaps they gave him time to run home to change his clothes and shower? :P


Sure, and maybe he had one of those medical tricorders from Star Trek that automatically sutures wounds.

Again, I'm trying NOT to draw conclusions from the video, I'm just saying that the images don't appear to corroborate his story about his injuries.
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Postby vison » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:53 am

A member of the RCMP was just found guilty of various things: he hit a motorcycle and killed the rider, while driving drunk. He immediately gave his driver's license to a bystander, and drove home where he drank 2 big shots of vodka and then returned to the scene of the accident. He did nothing whatsoever in the way of trying to help the victim, he did not know whether the guy was dead or alive.

So, he blew impaired and claimed it was from the vodka that he had needed to "steady his nerves". His various lies have been found out, but it was a long, miserable process.

Only because the dead man's family would not let the matter rest was he finally held accountable. This man was one of the four RCMP members who had tasered a man to death at Vancouver airport. They have not been disciplined yet. Every word that came out of their mouths about the incident has been proven to be a lie.

In other words, perhaps there are a lot of liars in this case. The police are as apt to lie as anyone, and, of course, I know that comment is likely to bring various forms of wrath down on my head. But I stick to it.
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Postby rwhen » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:13 pm

I didn't see that this write up by one of the officers who responded to the 911 call has been posted, but it has some interesting things to observe in it.

Ofcr Ricardo Ayala’s statement submitted 2/27/2012 2:28

On 2/26 at approximately 1917 hours I was dispatch to 1111 Retreat View Cir in reference to a complainant seeing suspicious person in the area. While en route dispatch stated that they were receiving calls in reference to gun shots being heard in the area where I was responding to.

Ofc. T. Smith stated via radio that he was arriving in the area. Ofc. T. Smith later states that there was only one subject shot and he had one at gunpoint.

Upon arrival Ofc. T. Smith had a white male later identified as George Zimmerman, in custody. Zimmerman was also the original caller in reference to the suspicious person.

I then noticed that there was what appeared to be a black male wearing a gray sweater, blue jeans, and white/red sneakers laying face-down on the ground. The black male had his hands underneath his body. I attempted to get a response from the black male but was met with negative results. At that time Sgt. Raimondo arrived and attempted to get a pulse on the black male but none as found. At that time Sgt. Raimondo and I turned the black male over and began CPR. Sgt. Raimondo did breaths and I did chest compressions.

Sgt. S McCoy arrived on scene and relieved me continuing compressions. Sanford Fire Rescue arrived on scene and attempted to revive the subject but could not. Paramedic Brady pronounced the subject deceased at 1930 hours.

The scene was then secured with crime scene tape by Ofc. Mead and Ofc. Wagner. Ofc. Robertson began a crime scene contamination log.

Lt. Taylor arrived on scene and notified dispatch to have Major Crimes respond to the scene. Ofc. Mead and Ofc. Wgner were able to make contact with neighbors in the area. They were able to obtain statements from all witnesses on scene.

The scene was turned over to SPD Major Crimes.



Some thoughts from an MSNBC poster:

"The timing on Officer Ayala's report: he states that Dispatch first alerted the patrolling officers of a suspicious person complaint at 1917 hours (7:17 civilian time.)--that corroborated Officer Smith's story above and could also be independently verified by the 911 call tapes. Paramedic Brady declared Trayvon Martin dead at 1930 hours (7:30) So only thirteen minutes went by from the time the officers were first dispatched to the scene and the time a paramedic declared Trayvon dead. Is that really enough time for everything Zimmerman's version states to have happened, for the police to search the subdivision to find them in a wooded area between two buildings, for the officers to secure the crime scene, three different officers start trying CPR on Martin until the paramedics get there, the paramedics try to revive him and then declare him dead 13 minutes after officers first got the call rom dispatch?

If Zimmerman indeed shot the teen after being jumped while trying to reenter his vehicle, why is the crime scene in the middle of a wooded area between two buildings and not by Zimmerman's vehicle? Did he shoot the boy, then drag the body to the wooded area? I think the cops would have noticed drag marks and blood, and I also think there wouldn't have been enough time for immerman to have done so. The police report I quoted above says Trayvon is 6'00" and 160, and Zimmerman is listed as 5'09" and no weight is given, but I doubt Zimmerman would have been able to do this in the 13 minute window detailed in both officers reports above."

I thought this interesting when I was reading it this morning.
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Postby hamlet » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:22 pm

Minardil wrote:
hamlet wrote:Perhaps they gave him time to run home to change his clothes and shower? :P


Sure, and maybe he had one of those medical tricorders from Star Trek that automatically sutures wounds.

Again, I'm trying NOT to draw conclusions from the video, I'm just saying that the images don't appear to corroborate his story about his injuries.


I agree with you. I'm just poking fun at this point.
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Postby hamlet » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:34 pm

vison wrote:A member of the RCMP was just found guilty of various things: he hit a motorcycle and killed the rider, while driving drunk. He immediately gave his driver's license to a bystander, and drove home where he drank 2 big shots of vodka and then returned to the scene of the accident. He did nothing whatsoever in the way of trying to help the victim, he did not know whether the guy was dead or alive.

So, he blew impaired and claimed it was from the vodka that he had needed to "steady his nerves". His various lies have been found out, but it was a long, miserable process.

Only because the dead man's family would not let the matter rest was he finally held accountable. This man was one of the four RCMP members who had tasered a man to death at Vancouver airport. They have not been disciplined yet. Every word that came out of their mouths about the incident has been proven to be a lie.

In other words, perhaps there are a lot of liars in this case. The police are as apt to lie as anyone, and, of course, I know that comment is likely to bring various forms of wrath down on my head. But I stick to it.


Of course police officers lie. They do as often as any other human.

What I'm saying is that as it appears now, if the police are lying, then a lot of them are lying in concert with each other rather than just a few officers. And doing so in a way that makes them look worse and stupid.

Yes, they could be lying and covering up what happened, but my question then is why would they?

Rwhen: Interesting bit of info. Happened in a far shorter time frame than I suspected. And if it happened in a wooded area, I'm wondering just where all this concrete that Zimmerman says his head was smacked into came from and then dissapeared to.
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Postby Minardil » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:48 pm

hamlet wrote:
Minardil wrote:
hamlet wrote:Perhaps they gave him time to run home to change his clothes and shower? :P


Sure, and maybe he had one of those medical tricorders from Star Trek that automatically sutures wounds.

Again, I'm trying NOT to draw conclusions from the video, I'm just saying that the images don't appear to corroborate his story about his injuries.


I agree with you. I'm just poking fun at this point.


Yeah, I got that. Indeed, I am locally reknown for my exceptional sense of humor, which I can demonstrate with a highly detailed Pareto Chart and signed affidavits by several people who are prepared to swear IN COURT that they have been personally amused by me on numerous occasions.
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Postby vison » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:51 pm

hamlet wrote:Yes, they could be lying and covering up what happened, but my question then is why would they?

Good question. If Mr. Zimmerman was an actual police officer, it would make sense. However, CYA is the first duty of any organization and maybe he fits their parameters.

It would be nice to think we might actually learn something like the actual truth, wouldn't it?

It isn't this incident alone that creeps me out. It's that people are so paranoid and feeling so threatended and no one is trying to change that. All the politicians I hear are playing on the fears and insecurities, not just in the US.

The Canadian government 's bill C-10 is called "Safer streets and communities" and it's just more of the same crap: trying to make us think we're in danger all the time and only the State and long harsh sentences will save us!!!!! Build more prisons!!!!! Death to pot smokers!!!!!! (The last being an exaggeration.)
GM is alive.

Osama bin Laden is dead.
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Postby FrodoTook » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:57 pm

hamlet said..

And as for the farmers . . . farmers tend to be extremely conservative, those in the midwest (inland portions of the US) even moreso. They also tend towards casual racism (i.e., they might talk a lot with some words you find horrifying, but when it comes down to it, they treat everybody individually with tremendous respect - I've watched some of them use the "N Word" in one breath and in the second offer a black neighbor several thousand dollars to pay his mortgage when he couldn't that month) and a very strong anti-government streak.


Most of the farmers I worked for in the South Eastern US ( North Carolina ) have the same mindset. I worked side by side with darker skinned folks in the fields. The farmers I worked for respected their workers ( and everyone they knew ) until they were turned to disrespecting them. That way of thinking influences me to this very day. I respect you until you turn me to disrespecting you.

Old school farmers were brought up ( raised ) on the "N" word. It was just the time they were raised in. But I know the majority of farmers and those of us in the South respected a person..regardless of color..as long as they were decent folks.

Black or white did not matter.

It's just folks.

EDIT..Not that my comments added much to the discussion. I was just responding to hamlets' post.

I really do not know enough to give a definitive comment to the subject of this thread.
Last edited by FrodoTook on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby basil » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:57 pm

Jnyusa wrote:
basil wrote:It seems that Zimmerman is a fast healer


Oh man, Officer Tim Smith filed a false police report? That just made it the township's business, where before it was just one loser with no deep pockets at fault.

Martin's family is going to sue that township into oblivion.


I sincerely hope that will be the least trouble they would have.

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Postby hamlet » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:01 pm

Minardil wrote:Yeah, I got that. Indeed, I am locally reknown for my exceptional sense of humor, which I can demonstrate with a highly detailed Pareto Chart and signed affidavits by several people who are prepared to swear IN COURT that they have been personally amused by me on numerous occasions.


Yeah, I know you know. I just have to say it because humor is in short supply on these boards from time to time. I myself have been an offender in this regard seeing as my own sense of humor was critically wounded in a drive by shooting shortly after accepting a position at the corporation that now employes me. I have medical reports and exceptions that give me access to handicapped seating in movie theaters showing comedies.


Vison: Sounds good, except that most of the cops I know have a special dislike in their heart for 99% of Neighborhood Watch organizations as they tend to create a large number of false reports and tend to fill up with types like Zimmerman who are looking to "make a difference" and "protect their own" and that sort of thing, folks who mistake their position as being "honorary police man." Most agree that they could just do without those groups and do with more average citizens who would just open their eyes and look around from time to time.

And yes, I do know and am friends with a number of police officers. My opinion of them is generally quite different than that of others' on this board.
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