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Manwë was known for many things, but wisdom and power are two that lead the rest of his attributes. Join the Councils and discuss the more weighty matters of Tolkien Fandom.

Postby vercingetorix » Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:57 pm

Chanukah wrote:I have read this Wikipedia article years back and it's very pathetic.

Only one similarity?

I mean if he doesnt want to believe then that his choice, but inventing fantasy stories like there is no similarities is truly pathetic.

The Egyptian who wrote these things was describing some of the things that he saw take place in Egypt when God had destroyed it and let his people go free. But now 3300 years after that we have a nucklehead who says that there is nothing there, no similarities, I mean can anything be so idiotic?

Cheers.
No. You are basing your interpretation on miniscule amounts of data because you want "proof". You are selective, spinning the most tenuous records in a vain attempt to make this "proof" stick.
You don't need my approval to believe. A good job really! Because I'm as likely to support your religious fantasies as I am to support scientology. L Ron Hubbard understood that the only real way to gain power/riches was religion, and I guess he was right. I don't need auditing. And I don't need burning bushes. It's all a bit silly. Scientology is crazy. So is......... insert your religion here!
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Postby Chanukah » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:40 pm

You think that you're scaring me because you don't believe?

All thoughtful history there were those who believed in god and those who denied him and all are responsible for their own actions, and are free to choose. But calling the vast majority of the world crazy for believing in a creator is kinda odd. Youre in the vast minority a single voice in the wilderness, for the world at large is a believer of a creator, that's the way it was before you were born and that's the way it shall stay forever.

Have a great day.
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Postby vercingetorix » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:47 pm

Chanukah wrote:You think that you're scaring me because you don't believe?

All thoughtful history there were those who believed in god and those who denied him and all are responsible for their own actions, and are free to choose. But calling the vast majority of the world crazy for believing in a creator is kinda odd. Youre in the vast minority a single voice in the wilderness, for the world at large is a believer of a creator, that's the way it was before you were born and that's the way it shall stay forever.

Have a great day.
No. I'm calling YOU crazy for believing in YOUR god. Yes, throughout history there have been innumerable believers in innumerable gods. And I'll concede that there have been more believers than non-believers........ but with a proviso: those believers, generally, have conflicted in what they believe in.
If we are to use the number of believers as some sort of justification for belief, where does that leave Judaism? 15 million believers in a world population of some 7 billion? Not looking good, is it?
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Postby Chanukah » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:52 pm

Judaism is a religion that billions of people base their beliefs on. Christianity and Islam base thier religions on the Torah and Judaism. So again calling billions of people crazy is kinda odd and only shows you in a negative light. You are free to do as you wish, freedom to choose is not a crazy thing.

Good luck, anyways.
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Postby vercingetorix » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:03 pm

Chanukah wrote:Judaism is a religion that billions of people base their beliefs on. Christianity and Islam base thier religions on the Torah and Judaism. So again calling billions of people crazy is kinda odd and only shows you in a negative light. You are free to do as you wish, freedom to choose is not a crazy thing.

Good luck, anyways.
And Judaism is itself syncretic, co-opting Assyrian, Egyptian and a multitude of other motifs. Which means..... what? That religions bleed off each other? It is only the truly arrogant who declare that THEY are the only true religion!

I wonder; modern Christianity is founded on Pauline doctrine, but it has developed over time. Has the Jewish faith done the same, or is it fundamentalist, believing in the proscriptions of Leviticus etc?

Is the "new testament" of Christianity the same as Judaism? Is Islam the same as Judaism? If Jews and Muslims are the same.......... why the hate? Why have an exclusionist Israel, in which Muslims are not "wanted"?

Or is there something else going on? :)
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Postby Chanukah » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:12 pm

Yes Judaism is unique because it's the only religion from the worlds 10,000 religions that was created through a national revelation where each member witnessed the god of the universe speak and command them directly to follow him.

So I as a Jew would never believe any mortals story that god spoke to him. Who is god hiding from? If he he wants something from me let him come to me and tell me what he wants in a national revelation so all would see without a question. this is the Jewish approach to religion and it's a unique approach.

But you are again free to choose your beliefs, and I would respect whatever you choose, I won't agree with you, but I won't call you ' crazy' . I'm sure youre a bright fella with good intentions, but it's always wise to learn seriously the matters of your objections objectively before passing judgement and handing out names.
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Postby vercingetorix » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:29 pm

Chanukah wrote:Yes Judaism is unique because it's the only religion from the worlds 10,000 religions that was created through a national revelation where each member witnessed the god of the universe speak and command them directly to follow him.

So I as a Jew would never believe any mortals story that god spoke to him. Who is god hiding from? If he he wants something from me let him come to me and tell me what he wants in a national revelation so all would see without a question. this is the Jewish approach to religion and it's a unique approach.

But you are again free to choose your beliefs, and I would respect whatever you choose, I won't agree with you, but I won't call you ' crazy' . I'm sure youre a bright fella with good intentions, but it's always wise to learn seriously the matters of your objections objectively before passing judgement and handing out names.
Sorry, but are you saying that you witnessed this god speaking to you, or are you relying on the assertions of (questionable) historic entities? Because the cult of Diana, for example, has (probably) more direct assertions of events than Judaism (Golden Bough et al), but I still don't subscribe to it. And I wouldn't expect you to. Why do you subscribe to your mythos? Did god speak to you? How deep was his voice?????
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Postby Chanukah » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:47 pm

God didn't speak to me, of course not. He spoke to my forefathers and my people thousands of years in a national revelation that all the world knew and heard of.

This nation who received the oracles of faith from god directly still exist today and will continue to exist forever. Billions of people have been influenced by this people and most of the world believes in god because of it.

The myths and stories of the Greeks and the ancient pagans are dead as are those empires, truth lives on while the lie dies and gets lost.

Judaism and the Jews and their Torah has stood the test of time and history and is the only nation in the history of the world that was reborn after a long exile just as god had promised in the Torah. So we stand on rock solid realty and truth.

But if you don't want to believe in it then don't, you are free to do as you want.

Best of Wishes
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Postby vercingetorix » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:00 pm

Chanukah wrote:God didn't speak to me, of course not. He spoke to my forefathers and my people thousands of years in a national revelation that all the world knew and heard of.

This nation who received the oracles of faith from god directly still exist today and will continue to exist forever. Billions of people have been influenced by this people and most of the world believes in god because of it.

The myths and stories of the Greeks and the ancient pagans are dead as are those empires, truth lives on while the lie dies and gets lost.

Judaism and the Jews and their Torah has stood the test of time and history and is the only nation in the history of the world that was reborn after a long exile just as god had promised in the Torah. So we stand on rock solid realty and truth.

But if you don't want to believe in it then don't, you are free to do as you want.

Best of Wishes
I think the importance of Judaism would have died like all the other simplistic proto-religions if it hadn't been for Constantine, and his elevation of Christianity as a state religion. Judaism, this rump belief of this tiny global minority, gained kudos solely because Jesus (if he existed) was a Jew, and Paul (who was an occasional Jew) built his new cult on a convenient Jewish foundation.
As for the rebirth of Israel.... well, Poland was reborn, dontcha know? :D
Armenia?
All this special pleading for Israel. Why? Perhaps it's because of shaky legitimacy when gauged againsty more modern parameters?
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Postby Chanukah » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:14 pm

Judaism never died and that's the fact and it's importance is not only to the Jews who follow it but to the many peoples who base their new religions on. You forgot that Jesus and Paul and all those first Christians were Jews? And that Christianity had many similarities in its beginning to judaism, and without Judaism it' would have disappeared? Did you know that?

Same goes for Islam, by the way if copy right infringements were effective in those days one would have sued the Muslims for taking everything from Judaism, things like not eating pork, and the concept of sabbath, and the dietary laws, and many other things, we're all of Jewish origin.

So without Judaism , the mother religion no children would have been born, and the world would have been stuck in the pagan nonsense. Thank god for Judaism and its efforts to save humanity from a certain catastrophe , the same destructive fate that the pagans have had. The Romans and the Greeks and the vast majority of the ancient pagan world was erased from the planet forever because they were pagans who refused to hear the voice and call of Sinai.

And here comes Judaism and spreads its teachings of a one true god to the four corners of the world. Therefore the world is in a great debt to the Jews and Judaism for showing them the foolishness of worshipping man made idols of stone and metals, and teaching them some concepts of a one true god.

Only the ungrateful would seek to take away these credits away from the Jews.
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Postby vercingetorix » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:30 pm

And the major ingrates would seem to be the Jews who deny the influence of surrounding cultures in the creation of their religion.
And this division between "pagan" and..... "not pagan"........ what does this mean? It seems like an arbitrary divide orchestrated by those engaged in special pleading: my religion, being true, is non-pagan. Your religion, being false, is pagan. Can't see it, myself.
And I agree; the world is in a great debt to Judaism.. no, that's wrong. Judaism is in a great debt to the world. Through this exceptionalist doctrine, it has elevated religion into a competition, in which unbelievers, infidels, heretics, call them what you will, are slaughtered by their millions because they don't adhere to the "correct" doctrine. That was unheard of in "pagan" religions, in which gods were co-opted if they were useful.
Bottom line? Jewish exceptionalism (which includes Christianity and Islam) is the greatest engine for human slaughter that could be imagined. The sooner this perverse doctrine is eradicated, the better for humanity in general.
Right????????????????????????
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Postby Chanukah » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:34 pm

I'm sorry but I just don't have time for your nonsense anymore. You don't have class. You're ignorant and yet your proud of it, if you want to learn be nice and ask with the intention to learn, but you mock everything and exhibit lunacy and also attack and call people names. Have you got no manners?

I'm not having this conversation with you anymore.
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Postby Daefaroth » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:13 pm

This has gone beyond constructive discussion.

Neither of you are having this conversation any more.

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