The Affordable Care Act

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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Thu May 01, 2014 6:02 pm

portia wrote:Since your "summary" of my position is seriously flawed, I present the following.

I am willing to consider the possibility that the politician actually opposes "X." Which will give me some insight (maybe) to his/her thought processes.


But since your premise is that the politician is lying then instead of "That politician says he opposes X, that means the politician supports X" we have "That politician says he opposes X, that means his thought processes are supportive of X."

portia wrote:But I hope I am never foolish enough to base my support or opposition on what I think of the promises.


I've asked this before, and you've never answered. Since it is NOT their platform, what exactly do you base your support or opposition on?

portia wrote:I do not attach much importance to whether they were "prevented" from carrying out a promise in which they really believed, or were just "making a noise."


Which means that The Heretic is right.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby portia » Fri May 02, 2014 4:30 pm

We have returned to Wonderland in these posts. Your comments resemble the Mad Hatter's conversations.

If you plan on saying something that can be deciphered, I am sure we would all appreciate it.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Fri May 02, 2014 5:12 pm

I noticed that in your "reply" you skipped this question.

Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:I've asked this before, and you've never answered. Since it is NOT their platform, what exactly do you base your support or opposition on?
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby portia » Sun May 04, 2014 11:13 am

Oh, My Goodness. Do not tell me that you are actually basing anything on what is in the platform!??!
Anything I said in response to such reliance would be a TOS violation.
Have you ever heard of anyone actually making comments relying on the platform? How often have we heard candidates not even able to recall what the platform says?

The promises I pay attention to (well, the attention is minimal, at best) are important speeches, and repeated statements. I still do not rely on them, unless to show a candidate's preference for the result, sometimes. Or to show a general preference for the policy. Unfortunately it is easy for a candidate---and his/her audience-- to forget that a lot of policies require co-peration from the Legislature, the members of which are elected independently, and the situation may not be at all what the candidate thinks it is.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby Minardil » Thu May 08, 2014 10:18 am

The Republican obsession with "Obamacare", which is bordering on a delusional mania, might play very well among the seriously and deliberately misinformed Tea Party base, but outside the Fox News Bubble, I am wondering how well their constant drumbeat of anti-Obamacare fear mongering will really play out in the coming elections, when their version of what is happening strays further and further from the reality that every one else will see?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/gops-latest-anti-obamacare-talking-213658327.html

Last week, the Republican-led House Committee on Energy and Commerce released information claiming only 67% of enrollees in insurance exchanges established by the Affordable Care Act made their first premium payment. The data was paraded around as a talking point ahead of the Obama administration's final release of stats from the law's first open enrollment period.

On Wednesday, that talking point blew up.

Three of the country's largest insurers — Aetna, WellPoint, and Health Care Service Corp., which operates Blue Cross Blue Shield plans in several states — said between 80-90% of new customers who enrolled through Obamacare paid their first month's premiums. Executives from the companies announced the news in testimony before the very same House Committee on Energy and Commerce where Republicans touted the contrary data last week.

WellPoint said the number of customers who paid their premiums by the deadline was 90%. For Aetna, it was in the "low-to-mid 80s range." Health Care Service Corp. said their number was at least 83%.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby hamlet » Thu May 08, 2014 12:38 pm

Minardil wrote:The Republican obsession with "Obamacare", which is bordering on a delusional mania, might play very well among the seriously and deliberately misinformed Tea Party base, but outside the Fox News Bubble, I am wondering how well their constant drumbeat of anti-Obamacare fear mongering will really play out in the coming elections, when their version of what is happening strays further and further from the reality that every one else will see?

\
When have such petty things as facts and reality held any weight when considering political opinions? On either side?
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby Minardil » Thu May 08, 2014 1:20 pm

hamlet wrote:
Minardil wrote:The Republican obsession with "Obamacare", which is bordering on a delusional mania, might play very well among the seriously and deliberately misinformed Tea Party base, but outside the Fox News Bubble, I am wondering how well their constant drumbeat of anti-Obamacare fear mongering will really play out in the coming elections, when their version of what is happening strays further and further from the reality that every one else will see?

\


When have such petty things as facts and reality held any weight when considering political opinions? On either side?


You know, I'm not going to cop to the "both sides lie" meme on this one. YES, President Obama seriously overstated some things, particularly the line "if you like your coverage you can keep it". Turns out, many people will NOT get to keep their coverage, some because of the new standards, others because Insurance Companies are taking advantage of the confusion about the law to gouge customers. But, be that as it may, MOST people still got to keep their coverage.

Meanwhile, the lies that Republicans have been telling are WHOPPERS. NO ONE'S GRANDMOTHER will be sentenced to death by a Socialist Death Panel. There is no "takeover" of health care. There really are MILLIONS of people who signed up. The "lies" on the Democratic side are pretty much in line with political statements of the past - a combination of wishful thinking and oversell - but the lies from the Right are outright fabrications, pure deception from inception, lies for the sake of lies which no one should believe. And with the "conservative news media" supporting the lies, even inventing them in many cases, there isn't much real information getting out over on that end of the spectrum. There is a qualitative difference here.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby hamlet » Thu May 08, 2014 1:52 pm

I'm not talking about Obama. I'm talking about individual Democrats and individual persons in general. I have no particular qualms with Obama's truthfullness or untruthfullness.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby GlassHouse » Fri May 09, 2014 12:50 am

Minardil wrote:
....

Meanwhile, the lies that Republicans have been telling are WHOPPERS. NO ONE'S GRANDMOTHER will be sentenced to death by a Socialist Death Panel. There is no "takeover" of health care. There really are MILLIONS of people who signed up. The "lies" on the Democratic side are pretty much in line with political statements of the past - a combination of wishful thinking and oversell - but the lies from the Right are outright fabrications, pure deception from inception, lies for the sake of lies which no one should believe. And with the "conservative news media" supporting the lies, even inventing them in many cases, there isn't much real information getting out over on that end of the spectrum. There is a qualitative difference here.


Speaking of:
Last week the House GOP cranked out a phony survey that claimed only 67 percent of Obamacare enrollees had paid for their policies. Then the House Energy and Commerce subcommittee held a hearing on Obamacare, and the Republican members were utterly dumbfounded that the insurance executives who testified did not repeat the GOP talking points.

Across the board, the health insurance executives testified that the payment rate for premiums was somewhere between 80 and 90percent, while stressing that these data are preliminary and that outstanding payments are still coming in.

This was a stinging rebuke of the Republicans on the very committee to which the executives were testifying, who had issued a report last week claiming that the premium payment rate was actually 67 percent. That report, which was based on incomplete data and rigged to produce a low number, was met with derision by journalists and observers who saw it as a transparent ploy to create a damaging anti-Obamacare talking point.

Conservative media, however, ate it up. “White House tries spin move on gloomy Obamacare numbers,” said Fox News. “The enrollment totals were bogus and worse than expected,” clucked Townhall’s Guy Benson, who later sneered at the White House’s pushback on the report.


They honestly believed the hearing would confirm their bogus report. Republicans biggest Achilles heel is that they believe their own nonsense.

The problem is, that's also their greatest strength.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby Minardil » Fri May 09, 2014 5:10 am

GlassHouse wrote:
Minardil wrote:
....

Meanwhile, the lies that Republicans have been telling are WHOPPERS. NO ONE'S GRANDMOTHER will be sentenced to death by a Socialist Death Panel. There is no "takeover" of health care. There really are MILLIONS of people who signed up. The "lies" on the Democratic side are pretty much in line with political statements of the past - a combination of wishful thinking and oversell - but the lies from the Right are outright fabrications, pure deception from inception, lies for the sake of lies which no one should believe. And with the "conservative news media" supporting the lies, even inventing them in many cases, there isn't much real information getting out over on that end of the spectrum. There is a qualitative difference here.


Speaking of:
Last week the House GOP cranked out a phony survey that claimed only 67 percent of Obamacare enrollees had paid for their policies. Then the House Energy and Commerce subcommittee held a hearing on Obamacare, and the Republican members were utterly dumbfounded that the insurance executives who testified did not repeat the GOP talking points.

Across the board, the health insurance executives testified that the payment rate for premiums was somewhere between 80 and 90percent, while stressing that these data are preliminary and that outstanding payments are still coming in.

This was a stinging rebuke of the Republicans on the very committee to which the executives were testifying, who had issued a report last week claiming that the premium payment rate was actually 67 percent. That report, which was based on incomplete data and rigged to produce a low number, was met with derision by journalists and observers who saw it as a transparent ploy to create a damaging anti-Obamacare talking point.

Conservative media, however, ate it up. “White House tries spin move on gloomy Obamacare numbers,” said Fox News. “The enrollment totals were bogus and worse than expected,” clucked Townhall’s Guy Benson, who later sneered at the White House’s pushback on the report.


They honestly believed the hearing would confirm their bogus report. Republicans biggest Achilles heel is that they believe their own nonsense.

The problem is, that's also their greatest strength.



It's one of the pitfalls of manufacturing and fabricating the news in order to conform to your political philosophy, and then, in turn, basing your political arguments on the news stories you've created to support the views you already have: Eventually Reality sticks its ugly head in and asks "What's all this then?" But as you point out, the Republican's greatest strength is their ability to steadfastly ignore Reality and maintain their Faith in the talking points. But that only helps them maintain the loyalty of the faithful, I don't know that this will get them many new converts.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby portia » Fri May 09, 2014 9:15 am

That sort of nonsense lost me a long time ago. I take great delight in returning the GOP 'Push-polls" and answering all the questions the way I want, not the way they want.
My Congressman also includes the GOP's "answer" to the unemployment numbers, without ever attempting to explain what the alternate numbers mean. I alsways write to him to show that the numbers are not convincing ME, and that I disapprove of having a First-term, party-line, non-thinking Congressperson. His background prepared him for better things.

Who knows, it might get through, sometime.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby GlassHouse » Fri May 09, 2014 10:30 am

It may be starting to dawn on some of them that Obamacare isn’t going to be the magic bullet to a midterm sweep that they had assumed, which has a lot to do with why Benghazi!!!is so important to them now. Because it’s all they’ve got.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby GlassHouse » Fri May 09, 2014 10:55 am

I couldn't get this out of my head. I kept wondering what would be be next if BENGAZZI!!! doesn't prove to be enough? My expectation is that a new batch of mini-conspiracy theories will crop up to tide the brethren over past election day. But what could they be? It's an intriguing question. I always liked speculative fiction, (can't say "science" fiction, because they don't believe in science) so I thought why let Fox News have all the fun? It might be fun for some of us to come up with some of our own. Here's mine;

As I glanced at the tabloids in the checkout line the other day, I noticed an article on Kim Kardashian’s bottom. It was the second article on this subject in a month’s time. (Evidently, it’s getting bigger, but I'm told there's no immediate cause for alarm.) At first the significance eluded me but then I thought about how the right wing media might process and use this information. I came up with a prediction. Within one month some voices on Fox News will run with this narrative.

“Kim Kardashian’s butt is NOT getting bigger! She is only trying to distract us from Benghazi!”

Make a note of this and check back in a month. You will be amazed!!
Last edited by GlassHouse on Fri May 09, 2014 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Fri May 09, 2014 1:43 pm

portia wrote:The promises I pay attention to (well, the attention is minimal, at best) are important speeches, and repeated statements. I still do not rely on them, unless to show a candidate's preference for the result, sometimes. Or to show a general preference for the policy.


But you've admitted long ago that you know all of those are lies! How can you rely on that when you've admitted those are lies?
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby GlassHouse » Fri May 09, 2014 11:21 pm

This is how conspiracies are born.

I know it would be pretty hard to top that but I still encourage everyone here to come up with their own. Just to lighten it up around here if for no other reason.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby portia » Sat May 10, 2014 7:23 am

Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
portia wrote:The promises I pay attention to (well, the attention is minimal, at best) are important speeches, and repeated statements. I still do not rely on them, unless to show a candidate's preference for the result, sometimes. Or to show a general preference for the policy.


But you've admitted long ago that you know all of those are lies! How can you rely on that when you've admitted those are lies?


No; that is wrong. (I really like Solicitr's phrase: "Um, No.")
You supplied the word "lies." It is not the right word. Words in the English language have meanings and are not subject to arbitrary changes, depending on the speaker.

Much of the time, I think the speaker would like it if the result was what he/she claimed (if, for no other reason that the speaker could claim some credit). Some of the time, he/she would be indifferent if the result were as promised. I feel that in only a minority of times, would the speaker be unhappy with that result. In those cases, maybe, you could call the promises "lies."

Also, I do not think you have clarified what you mean by people being "prevented" from carrying out a promise as opposed to "not trying to carry it out". Are you using telepathy to determine that?
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Sat May 10, 2014 9:28 am

portia wrote:
Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
portia wrote:The promises I pay attention to (well, the attention is minimal, at best) are important speeches, and repeated statements. I still do not rely on them, unless to show a candidate's preference for the result, sometimes. Or to show a general preference for the policy.


But you've admitted long ago that you know all of those are lies! How can you rely on that when you've admitted those are lies?


No; that is wrong. (I really like Solicitr's phrase: "Um, No.")
You supplied the word "lies."


Then you've admitted long ago that you know it's not true. I don't know what other word to use to say "he knowingly spoke something that he know isn't true" but since you have a hangup on the word "lie" then you apparently are abandoning all attempt at coherent discussion.

So, let's start over.

But you've admitted long ago that you know all of those are not true! How can you rely on that when you've admitted those are not true?

portia wrote:Much of the time, I think the speaker would like it if the result was what he/she claimed (if, for no other reason that the speaker could claim some credit). Some of the time, he/she would be indifferent if the result were as promised. I feel that in only a minority of times, would the speaker be unhappy with that result. In those cases, maybe, you could call the promises "lies."


So it's not a lie if: Even though the speaker knows it is not true, he would like it to be true.

We're definitely in wonderland territory now.

portia wrote:Also, I do not think you have clarified what you mean by people being "prevented" from carrying out a promise as opposed to "not trying to carry it out". Are you using telepathy to determine that?


I think you have clarified enough that you don't give a damn which reason was the one that stopped the carrying out a promise in the first place.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby portia » Sun May 11, 2014 9:24 am

We are taling about promises for the future: what the speaker would do once in office. Therefor it is a logical impossibility for the statement to be untrue, since it hasn't happened yet. They cannot possibly be "lies", since the events described haven't happened, yet. You need to sort out your tenses. Even people who make caregorical statemets such as "segregation now: segregation forever" have not acted on them, when the time came.

If a person says "I did not vote for it" and the statement is not true: that may be a lie as it refers to a completed act in the past. However, if the person says I will not vote for it next week, it is not a lie--but only a prediction/guess/opinion and those often turn out not to come true.
Here endeth the grammar lesson.

I have not, ever, called such things as you cite lies. I know the difference between past and future. As I pointed out, people sometimes say things that they do not mean, but unless it is as to an existing fact, it is not a "lie" and, since circumstances change, who knows what the person will advocate when the tie comes.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Sun May 11, 2014 5:23 pm

portia wrote:We are taling about promises for the future: what the speaker would do once in office.' Therefor it is a logical impossibility for the statement to be untrue, since it hasn't happened yet. They cannot possibly be "lies", since the events described haven't happened, yet. You need to sort out your tenses.


In my most recent response, I dropped the use of the word "lies". While you say I need to fix my use of verb tenses, you need to fix your own understanding of time. Later posts were posted later than earlier posts.

So, let's start over.

But you've admitted long ago that you know all of those (candidate statements) are not true! How can you rely on that when you've admitted those are not true?

Look carefully, I did not use the word "lies".
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby portia » Wed May 14, 2014 7:29 am

I have not admitted to "knowing that they are not true." What I have admitted to is that the speaker does not necessarilly expect the promise to be kept (for a whole bunch of reasons, some of which are not his/her doing). It is certainly possible that some of those promises were merely "for publication" but, since I am not a mind reader, I cannot tell which, if any.

It is more sensible to count the promses as something that the speaker might like to happen, and then wait and SEE what happens. It is certainly NOT sensible to rely so much on a promise (even a promise that the speaker might carry out by him/herself) that the promise is the main reason to support the candidate. One is BOUND to be disappointed.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby The Heretic » Tue May 20, 2014 5:18 am

Minardil wrote: YES, President Obama seriously overstated some things, particularly the line "if you like your coverage you can keep it".

Minitrue has spoken, it was just an overstatement.
But oddly (and unlike previous attempts), Minardil is not using his favorite fact-checking site, the incredibly biased Politifraud, to provide cover for his apologia.
I wonder why that is?
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... n-keep-it/
Lie of the Year
Even Minardil's favorite, the biased Politifarce, could no longer do their duty to and continuing covering for B-B.
Has Politifake become an unsite?
A visit to Miniluv is in order...
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby portia » Wed May 21, 2014 9:34 am

Why are we still beating this dead horse? The poor thing has decomposed enough to guest star on "Bones."

Everyone has agreed that the statement was 'way over broad and made without thinking of all the possibilities, or even most of them.

Enough, already.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby The Heretic » Wed May 21, 2014 3:57 pm

portia wrote:Everyone has agreed that the statement was 'way over broad and made without thinking of all the possibilities, or even most of them.

I have not agreed to that, thus de facto, not every one has agreed to it. Your Newspeak is doubleplus ungood. As previously noted, which even you acknowledged, Obama's policy advisors said it was false and were over ruled by his political operatives who realized that if Obama told the truth he would not get what he wanted. Hence a deliberate and considered lie.
Enough, already.

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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby portia » Thu May 22, 2014 8:32 am

I feel sorry for the horse; dead tho' it is.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby kateT » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:44 am

This is really interesting! The Affordable Care Act places consumers back in charge of their health care. Part of the Affordable Care Act is the development of “health care trades,” online market places for people to purchase health care insurance. This will provide better health security by putting in place comprehensive health insurance reforms that will expand coverage and hold insurance companies accountable. I guess the biggest obstacle Obamacare will face isn't getting people in the system, but making sure those who do get in will actually receive affordable care.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby portia » Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:30 am

It ios going to take a while. How long did it take Social Security and the Income tax to settle in and be accepted? Changes are inevitable, and routine for new laws.

I rather doubt that it will be the first target of the New Senate. A lot of Senators have been pointing out other targets, to be attacked first.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby ToshoftheWuffingas » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:52 am

Spotted today and posted here for the lulz:


I am the very model of a modern Libertarian:
I teem with glowing notions for proposals millenarian, I've nothing but contempt for ideologies collectivist
(My own ideas of social good tend more toward the Objectivist).
You see, I've just discovered, by my intellectual bravery,
That civic obligations are all tantamount to slavery;
And thus that ancient pastime, viz., complaining of taxation,
Assumes the glorious aspect of a war for liberation!

[Chorus:]
You really must admit it's a delightful revelation:
To female canine about your taxes is to fight for liberation!

I bolster up my claims with lucubrations rather risible
About the Founding Fathers and the market's hand invisible;
In fact, my slight acquaintance with the fountainhead Pierian
Makes me the very model of a modern Libertarian!

[Chorus:]
His very slight acquaintance with the fountainhead Pierian
Makes him the very model of a modern Libertarian!

All "public wealth" is robbery, we never will accede to it;
You have no rights in anything if you can't show your deed to it.
(But don't fear repossession by our Amerind minority:
Those treaties aren't valid---Uncle Sam had no authority!)
We realize whales and wolves and moose find wilderness quite vital,
And we'll give back their habitats---if they can prove their title.
But people like unspoiled lands (we too will say "hooray" for them),
So we have faith that someone else will freely choose to pay for them.

[Chorus:]
Yes, when the parks are auctioned it will be a lucky day for them---
We're confident that someone else will freely choose to pay for them!

We'll guard the health of nature by self-interest most astute:
Since pollution is destructive, no one ever will pollute.
Thus factories will safeguard our communities riparian---
I am the very model of a modern Libertarian!

[Chorus:]
Yes, factories will safeguard our communities riparian,
He is the very model of a modern Libertarian!

In short, when I can tell why individual consumers
Know best who should approve their drugs and who should treat their tumors;
Why civilized existence in its intricate confusion
Will be simple and straightforward, absent government intrusion;
Why markets cannot err within the system I've described,
Why poor folk won't be bullied and why rich folk won't be bribed,
And why all vast inequities of power and position
Will vanish when I wave my wand and utter "COMPETITION!"---

[Chorus:]
He's so much more exciting than a common politician,
Inequities will vanish when he hollers "Competition!"

---And why my lofty rhetoric and arguments meticulous
Inspire shouts of laughter and the hearty cry, "Ridiculous!",
And why my social theories all seem so pre-Sumerian---
I'll be the very model of a modern Libertarian!

[Chorus:]
His novel social theories all seem so pre-Sumerian---
He is the very model of a modern Libertarian!
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby Minardil » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:25 am

Oh that's awesome!
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby Jnyusa » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:25 pm

Fyi, these guys are proselytizing on campuses as ferociously as Baptists in a jungle.
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Re: The Affordable Care Act

Postby portia » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:07 pm

I am sure they are: they have been for years. That is what college is for, to let people see/hear all opinions. Only if they try to bully, etc are they crossing the line (sometimes they do).
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