The 2016 Elections

Manwë was known for many things, but wisdom and power are two that lead the rest of his attributes. Join the Councils and discuss the more weighty matters of Tolkien Fandom.

Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby Storyteller » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:32 pm

Trump is the middle finger that a part of USA electorate have long wanted to show the Washington establishment. He is being rude, breaking taboos of politically correct politeness and exposing the hypocrisy of the other candidates by refusing to play the prescribed role. He unashamedly boasts his wealth while others who are known to be millionaires unconvincingly pretend to be humble. He is also the one decent salesman amidst a gallery of bland and unexciting figures like Clinton, Biden, Walker etc. who could well pass for carton cutouts of themselves but without the charisma.

Trump is the American political system's version of a "holy fool". He won't win the Republican primaries and won't run as independent. He is an egomaniac whose promises carry little value, and he will lose interest in the race as soon as it becomes apparent that he has no realistic chance of winning. But he will stir the pot and introduce some unpredictability into the otherwise dull race. His exploits will also open up some subjects for discussion, and that's not bad.
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby portia » Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:24 am

I am having trouble crediting the idea that there was "classified or classifiable" info in the emails, but since I can't see why it was a good idea in the first place, there is room for doubt.

With the Clinton's history, I would be paranoid, too, but someone should have warned them off.

I pretty much agree with Story on Trump. His cavalier attitude to problems with his programs will not survive. He might stir up enough passion in serious candidates to make this a marginally interesting race.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby Minardil » Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:59 pm

Oh, he's a buffoon alright, or at least he is playing the part extremely well, but I think the stuff he says goes way beyond being just "politically incorrect". It's "politically incorrect" to refer to a grown woman as a "girl", it's something else entirely to refer to a woman as a "fat ugly pig" and a "bimbo". It's politically incorrect to use the term "illegal aliens", as the PC term has become "undocumented",but it is racist and offensive to say that they are all rapists, drug dealers, and criminals. it's also just nonsense, most illegals (and I personally have no problem using that word) actually do their best to lie low and stay out of trouble.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby portia » Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:03 am

He waives a "Magic Wand" at problems and then blusters his way out of questions.

For example: he will build a big wall, as he is a builder (of what--the latest of his hotels to go into Bankruptcy?). Will HE pay for the wall? If not, how is he going to pay for it? And what about the tunnels?

Bush--and the others are not being hard enough on him--if they want to take him as a serious candidate. The ones that are ignoring him are probably right. After all, it is said--repeatedly--in every election that the only poll that means anything is the one on Election Day.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby Voronwe_the_Faithful » Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:30 am

portia wrote:For example: he will build a big wall, as he is a builder (of what--the latest of his hotels to go into Bankruptcy?). Will HE pay for the wall? If not, how is he going to pay for it?


He says he is going to get the Mexican government to pay for it, but how he plans to do that is the mystery.

Meanwhile, he now has more than two and half times the support of any other GOP candidate in the latest polls.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby Minardil » Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:22 am

When it comes to his plan to forcibly evict 11 million people and then get Mexico to pay to built a giant, impregnable wall on the border, hesays he'll "manage it". That is the full description of his plan: "I'll manage it." He explains that government is full of incompetent losers who don't know how to manage things, but he is very good at "management" and he hires "amazing" people. So, there, problem solved!
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby portia » Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:56 pm

Yes, the "Magic Wand" strikes again.

I don't have the documents to make a list of the people who were "Leading in the polls" but vanished sometime between 2 weeks prior to the first primaries and 4 weeks after. But my memory goes back to Goldwater, and I know that a LOT of people vanished in that period. So, the value I give to Trump's position in the opinion polls is very, very low. (Yawn)
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby Minardil » Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:05 am

So now Scott Walker has come out in favor of building a giant, 4000 mile long wall on the border. The CANADIAN border.

The policies being pushed by the Republican field of candidates is growing increasingly bizarre.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby portia » Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:10 am

Well, as a westerner, I would like to consider a wall at about the Rockies, to discourage people from the East Coast referring to where we live as "out west" as if we are all characters in a "Wild Bill Cody Wild West Show" print.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby Frelga » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:48 pm

Minardil wrote:So now Scott Walker has come out in favor of building a giant, 4000 mile long wall on the border. The CANADIAN border.

I've heard a few Canadians express their wholehearted support.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby Jnyusa » Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:07 am

All this talk about walls, when iron curtains are so much cheaper.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby portia » Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:36 am

But they still do not do anything about tunnels.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby RoseMorninStar » Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:23 am

I am sure we can all think of a few historical instances where a horrible, charismatic, egomaniac was elected to power to the complete befuddlement of those who thought the candidate was a buffoon. I think to not take Trump seriously at this point would be a huge mistake.


portia wrote:But they still do not do anything about tunnels.
I've had this same thought.

And to be fair, I've heard Westerners refer to those 'out east' in some colorful ways. ;)

Don't even get me started on Walker.. ugh.

Minardil wrote:(...)the stuff he says goes way beyond being just "politically incorrect". It's "politically incorrect" to refer to a grown woman as a "girl", it's something else entirely to refer to a woman as a "fat ugly pig" and a "bimbo". It's politically incorrect to use the term "illegal aliens", as the PC term has become "undocumented",but it is racist and offensive to say that they are all rapists, drug dealers, and criminals.
Agreed. The way Trump treats people and speaks to them is abhorrent. He speaks & acts as if he is the Master and we are the slaves and if we 'behave nicely' we will be treated well and if not we will see his lordly wrath. It's lowest common denominator behavior and unworthy of a true leader of a democratic nation. He's a despot. The people who take glory in this 'putting others in their place' behavior will never see it as despotic until that wrath is aimed in their direction.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby portia » Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:47 pm

The only poll that means anything is the one on Election Day. If he survives that one, I will take him seriously.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby RoseMorninStar » Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:30 pm

portia wrote:The only poll that means anything is the one on Election Day. If he survives that one, I will take him seriously.
Very true. But by then it could be too late. I'm just sayin'.. it wouldn't be the first time in history a horrible charismatic tyrant has been elected to office.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby Cerin » Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:25 pm

But Rose, as far as I understand it, Trump has less radical/extreme views than all of the other Republican candidates. I think treating Trump as a danger misses the point that the other candidates are much more serious dangers to the country, being actual politicians and therefore more viable candidates. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Trump is the only one of the Republicans willing to say he would allow an abortion to save a woman's life. All of the others say that woman should be allowed to die.

I do not believe Trump is a racist or a sexist. I think he just likes to make waves. I don't consider him dangerous, but I do consider the others dangerous.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby RoseMorninStar » Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:22 pm

Cerin, of course you make an excellent point and I agree. However, I do believe Trump is very racist (hence his 'birther' stance toward Pres. Obama) and he is sexist. And a spoiled tyrant. But you are right, that doesn't necessarily make him more dangerous than the other candidates. Elections truly are not bringing out the best & brightest our country has to offer. It seems to be more about who can out-crazy the other.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby hamlet » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:39 am

RoseMorninStar wrote:I am sure we can all think of a few historical instances where a horrible, charismatic, egomaniac was elected to power to the complete befuddlement of those who thought the candidate was a buffoon. I think to not take Trump seriously at this point would be a huge mistake.




I'd like to introduce you to a man named Godwin . . .
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby The Heretic » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:30 am

RoseMorninStar wrote:Cerin, of course you make an excellent point and I agree. However, I do believe Trump is very racist (hence his 'birther' stance toward Pres. Obama) and he is sexist.

When Trump was supporting Obama, was he racist then as well? And since the Clintons started the 'birther' thing, are they racist?
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby portia » Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:35 pm

''Pls clarify how the Clintons started the "birther thing".

Shot down by one's own citation. See next post.
Last edited by portia on Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby RoseMorninStar » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:34 pm

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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby portia » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:31 am

" How do you tell when Trump is lying to you? Well. . . ."

He has no filter on his mouth. Other Presidents have been criticized when they have a small slip of the tongue. If (God Forbid) Trump gets in there will be little else to discuss.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby Billobob » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:48 pm

I don't really see anyone I would want to vote for which I find disappointing.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby portia » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:00 am

If you are a Republican. . . "ANY ONE but Trump."

I hope you will not have that choice if you are a Democrat.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby hamlet » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:46 am

This is, sadly, what voting has come down to: voting for the party that least offends you.

When you realize that it boils down to "I'd vote for Hillary Clinton over any on the Republican side except Chris Christie and for my poodle over Trump," you have reached a very sad place in life.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby portia » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:04 pm

Have you just discovered this problem with voting?? Where have you been?
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby hamlet » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:36 am

portia wrote:Have you just discovered this problem with voting?? Where have you been?


No, I knew this problem before. I refused to vote last time because, after voting for Mr. Obama the first time, I felt betrayed and refused to vote based on "who I hate less." That turned out poorly and I regret that.

Now, I will have to swallow my pride and vote for somebody, but I still hate them all. it seems like neither party is able to put up anything resembling an actual candidate but favor cartoon characters instead.

the only one that I actually don't hate, thought I don't actually like him that much, is Christie. I've lived with him, figuratively, for the last several years and I think he's had a real positive influence on the state. I don't think he should be president though.
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby The Heretic » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:02 am

portia wrote:''Pls clarify how the Clintons started the "birther thing".

Shot down by one's own citation. See next post.

Hmm... I was under the impression that it was the 'received wisdom' here, as I seem to recall that when I was browsing the archives a few years back, that was one of the things the Obama supporters were tossing out at the Hillary supporters (in response to the sexism claims?, don't quite recall the order of it).

Oh, wait, I forgot. Oceania and Eastasia are allies. Oceania and Eastasia have always been allies. Oceania and Eastasia have never been at war.
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RoseMorninStar wrote:From FactCheck.org

Yes, that, and the Penn strategy as well suggesting attacks on Obamas lack of American roots and that Hillary's speeches emphasize her as born in America.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... 008/37952/
http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/20 ... r-movement

But you did not answer the questions:
When Trump was a democrat supporting Obama and taxpayer funded abortion on demand, single payer health care and raising taxes etc. was he a racist and sexist then?
Are the Clintons racists as well?
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby portia » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:10 am

I think there is a whiff of racism in criticism of Obama-- a sort of gut feeling that no Black man can lead a competent administration. But NO MORE than a whiff. Plenty of people have advocated a single payer--including on these boards-- but there is so much other support of the idea that any racism would be buried.

As to sexism of Clinton: who knows?
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Re: The 2016 Elections

Postby Jnyusa » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:05 pm

I still recall the press conference Clinton gave when she ran for office the first time, and someone in the audience held up a sign that said, "Iron my Shirt."

I wondered then whether anyone would dare to hold up a sign that said "Shine my Shoes" at an Obama press conference, because racism against Blacks has become meanwhile less fashionable than sexism against women.

But of course they did much worse than that at Sarah Palin's appearance in West Chester, Pennsylvania, wearing soft-toy monkeys on their shoulders and shouting "Kill him! Kill him!" when she mentioned his name.

Is there racism and sexism in American still? Oh gosh, Oh gee, oh duh.

Fortunately the people who represent that perspective are becoming an ever-smaller percentage of our population, eclipsed by immigrant minorities who don't hate their own selves. The yahoos live ever-more-visibly in geographic isolation and they are reaping the economic anonymity that they have sown, outclassed by the consumers of one of our fastest-growing export industries: university education.

I would like to drag them onward and upward along with the rest of us, but what are they odds that they will agree to come? It is a problem that troubles me greatly for ethical and patriotic reasons ... but I honestly don't know which handle to grab first. The received argument says that lack of economic opportunity is the root cause of persistent racism, sexism, ignorance (in educational terms), mob solutions ... but I think the argument can be made just as compellingly that racism, sexism, ignorance, and poor conflict resolution skills are what cause economic opportunity to evaporate. It is simply harder and harder to defend yourself (and your city and your state) in the global market competition for production sites if you can't offer modern infrastructure and a labor force that knows how to use it.
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