How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Manwë was known for many things, but wisdom and power are two that lead the rest of his attributes. Join the Councils and discuss the more weighty matters of Tolkien Fandom.

DO YOU ACCEPT JESUS'S FREE GIFT OF SALVATION?

YES
1
13%
NO
3
38%
I ALREADY PRAYED/ACCEPTED JESUS CHRIST AS MY SAVIOR
3
38%
OTHER
1
13%
 
Total votes : 8

Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Minardil » Thu May 28, 2015 6:33 pm

Lazarus II wrote:
Frelga wrote:You are not making Christianity look in any way appealing to non-Christians. In large part this is because you display a complete lack of understanding of any other religion.

While of course everyone believes that their worldview is the right one, Christianity is practically unique in its model of permanent damnation or salvation that is dependent on the belief rather than actions. I do know it's more complicated, and that there is a range of beliefs within various Christian denominations, but that's what it looks like from the outside. No one else is saying, "Believe this way or you are going to Hell." (I'm not sure about Islam. I asked a Muslim poster, who was very thorough in his answer, but all I got was "It's complicated")

If you are trying to proselytize, your task is not to convince people that Jesus is the way to salvation. It is to convince them that salvation is in any way necessary in the first place.


First of all, I never said "Believe this way or you are going to hell". muslims believe in eternal hell, after all, it's a forgery of Christianity copied and twisted from the Christian Bible. So, what you are saying is that everyone else is entitled to believe what they want, but since Christians believe in eternal hell, we aren't? So, if it doesn't feel good, then we shouldn't be allowed to believe it whether it's the actual truth or not? Christianity is unique and it's the only one that makes sense. If you read this first post, it explains why salvation isn't based on our works, but rather they are based on the finished work of Jesus Christ. There are many reasons for this, but the main one is that when a person DOES go to heaven, they will not be able to say that it's because THEY were good enough, but rather because JESUS CHRIST was good enough and saved them. That way, the glory goes to God and not man.



So you're not saying "Believe this way or you are going to Hell", you are just saying that believing the way you say we should is the only way to NOT go to Hell?
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Minardil » Thu May 28, 2015 6:34 pm

Sorry, double post.

The Devil must have made me do it.
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby oldtoby » Thu May 28, 2015 6:50 pm

=:) =:) =:) =:) =:) =:) =:) =:) =:) =:) =:) =:)

more likely Saddam, the Devil is kinda a wimp
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Billobob » Fri May 29, 2015 8:54 am

oldtoby wrote:=:) =:) =:) =:) =:) =:) =:) =:) =:) =:) =:) =:)

more likely Saddam, the Devil is kinda a wimp

Common guys lets try not to make fun of religions. :roll:
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby oldtoby » Fri May 29, 2015 2:27 pm

yeah......no, thats really all they are good for
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Billobob » Fri May 29, 2015 2:31 pm

oldtoby wrote:yeah......no, thats really all they are good for

Yeah but not everyone is of that opinion and people may get offended so it is usually best not to make those jokes in public which is what the Internet is.
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby oldtoby » Fri May 29, 2015 4:05 pm

Yeah but not everyone is of that opinion and people may get offended


Oh no!!! someone getting offended on the internet!!! whatever will we do?? the horror!!! the horror!!!!
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Jnyusa » Sat May 30, 2015 11:27 am

Plenty of people would be offended by Lazarus' points about religions other than his own. In fact, this thread is in the running for one of the ugliest threads we've ever had in Manwe.

Do we still give prizes for that?
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Frelga » Sat May 30, 2015 12:39 pm

I don't think it's anywhere close to even the top ten. Remember the last time someone tried this? That was a bloodbath, and even that wasn't one of the worst. This place got mellow.

However, the point is well made - the entire point of the OP is to attack all non-Christian beliefs, and that is taken in stride. Goose, gander, same sauce.
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Jnyusa » Sat May 30, 2015 5:26 pm

Frelga, actually I don't remember the last time someone came here and tried to sort the Christians from the heathens ... :P

I do make some effort to forget these things. Then there was that other person who kept posting under different names but he was a one-note johnny so I tend to think of all his posts as being one long abhorrent post.

We've had bloody debates about the content of different religions, their positions on various issues, but all sides seem to get their digs in when one of those gets going and there's something satisfying about the fairness of mutual e-visceration. Using a discussion forum to obtusely proselytize is, by contrast, just bad taste, like Sinead O'Connor's hair or Sarah Silverman's humor.
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Frelga » Sat May 30, 2015 9:06 pm

Jnyusa wrote:Frelga, actually I don't remember the last time someone came here and tried to sort the Christians from the heathens ... :P


The poster was xxbilbo... no, xxfrodoxx or something like that, and the poll they opened had absurd options "X is my lord and savior", where X equals an important religious figure from various traditions. Which, when it's Buddha, for example, is simply not applicable to, well, anything.

It didn't go over well, from what I recall. This thread is being treated with unicorn feathers and kittens, in comparison.
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Cerin » Sun May 31, 2015 9:39 am

I have to agree with Frelga that this is nothing like the deliberate nastiness that used to occur in this forum. I don't think I'd use the word 'mellow', though, to describe the difference from former years.

While I agree that proselytizing is out of place in such a forum (and I think the evident lack of interest shows it is considered out of place), I can't agree that it constitutes an attack on other religions. Yes, Lazarus believes he knows the truth, and that, consequently, the different things other people believe are not the truth. Is this an attack? I don't see how, anymore than offering a decided political opinion is an attack on the contrary political opinions of others.
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Jnyusa » Sun May 31, 2015 10:04 pm

Frelga wrote:The poster was xxbilbo... no, xxfrodoxx or something like that, and the poll they opened had absurd options "X is my lord and savior", where X equals an important religious figure from various traditions. Which, when it's Buddha, for example, is simply not applicable to, well, anything.


I must have slept through that one! Or put it completely out of my head. The good old days.

Cerin wrote:I can't agree that it constitutes an attack on other religions.


Oh, I don't see the thread in principle as an attack on other religions. Lazarus made two comments that I found aggressive, so I thought it odd that Billobob would come down on Toby for poking fun but would let slide comments likely to be a lot more insulting to some people. That's what prompted me to comment.

But it's also true that I've lost all my patience with true believers over the years. I've no longer any patience at all for self-constructed realities asserting themselves in public places. You're both right, I'm sure, that this is vanilla compared to earlier years, and it is I who am just a lot less tolerant than I used to be.
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Billobob » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:39 am

Jnyusa wrote:Frelga, actually I don't remember the last time someone came here and tried to sort the Christians from the heathens ... :P

I do make some effort to forget these things. Then there was that other person who kept posting under different names but he was a one-note johnny so I tend to think of all his posts as being one long abhorrent post.

We've had bloody debates about the content of different religions, their positions on various issues, but all sides seem to get their digs in when one of those gets going and there's something satisfying about the fairness of mutual e-visceration. Using a discussion forum to obtusely proselytize is, by contrast, just bad taste, like Sinead O'Connor's hair or Sarah Silverman's humor.


Jnyusa Im pretty sure that Lazurus 2 said that he is trying to inform of course he did say that he was hoping people would accept Christianity
Jnyusa wrote:
Frelga wrote:The poster was xxbilbo... no, xxfrodoxx or something like that, and the poll they opened had absurd options "X is my lord and savior", where X equals an important religious figure from various traditions. Which, when it's Buddha, for example, is simply not applicable to, well, anything.


I must have slept through that one! Or put it completely out of my head. The good old days.

Cerin wrote:I can't agree that it constitutes an attack on other religions.


Oh, I don't see the thread in principle as an attack on other religions. Lazarus made two comments that I found aggressive, so I thought it odd that Billobob would come down on Toby for poking fun but would let slide comments likely to be a lot more insulting to some people. That's what prompted me to comment.

But it's also true that I've lost all my patience with true believers over the years. I've no longer any patience at all for self-constructed realities asserting themselves in public places. You're both right, I'm sure, that this is vanilla compared to earlier years, and it is I who am just a lot less tolerant than I used to be.

I will admit I am a little biased in this topic and I have retread the posts and I believe that it was mainly from a lack of carefulness that the posts seemed to attack other religions. As for ribbing Old Toby I guess that was mainly me thinking this thread should keep the topic a little serious but I guess I could have just let it slide.

oldtoby wrote:
Yeah but not everyone is of that opinion and people may get offended

Oh no!!! someone getting offended on the internet!!! whatever will we do?? the horror!!! the horror!!!!


Good point I think this thread is going to get messy whatever we do.
Cerin wrote:I have to agree with Frelga that this is nothing like the deliberate nastiness that used to occur in this forum. I don't think I'd use the word 'mellow', though, to describe the difference from former years.

While I agree that proselytizing is out of place in such a forum (and I think the evident lack of interest shows it is considered out of place), I can't agree that it constitutes an attack on other religions. Yes, Lazarus believes he knows the truth, and that, consequently, the different things other people believe are not the truth. Is this an attack? I don't see how, anymore than offering a decided political opinion is an attack on the contrary political opinions of others.

That's a good point since not all religions can be correct, that is a lie. Of course you don't harass people of other faiths but one religion must be the only true one whether it be Islam,Hinduisim,Christianity,Atheism, or etc since almost all religions contradict each other in crucial ways. That statement was not an attack on any world view.

If anyone has anymore questions about Christianity as in its core beliefs (not politics etc.) than I'm willing to answer them.
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Cerin » Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:08 am

Billobob wrote:Of course you don't harass people of other faiths but one religion must be the only true one whether it be Islam,Hinduisim,Christianity,Atheism, or etc since almost all religions contradict each other in crucial ways.


Actually, this is by no means an accepted point (that there must be only one religion that is true). It's my understanding that many people believe that truth has been presented through all of the world's religions and they are all representations of truth, contradictions between them notwithstanding. I've had a difficult time understanding this viewpoint, because it seems so obvious to me that if a religion asserts a certain thing that is contrary to what another religion asserts, then they can't both be truth. I think there must be different working definitions of 'truth' at the heart of these two viewpoints.
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Billobob » Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:18 am

Cerin wrote:
Billobob wrote:Of course you don't harass people of other faiths but one religion must be the only true one whether it be Islam,Hinduisim,Christianity,Atheism, or etc since almost all religions contradict each other in crucial ways.


Actually, this is by no means an accepted point (that there must be only one religion that is true). It's my understanding that many people believe that truth has been presented through all of the world's religions and they are all representations of truth, contradictions between them notwithstanding. I've had a difficult time understanding this viewpoint, because it seems so obvious to me that if a religion asserts a certain thing that is contrary to what another religion asserts, then they can't both be truth. I think there must be different working definitions of 'truth' at the heart of these two viewpoints.

I actually have a friend who believes that all religions show a portion of truth so I am pretty sure I understand what you're saying. But I think a lot of it is that many people want to believe all religions can work together and that they do for instance the wheel analogy. This is similar to what happened in Rome with Hellinization mixing religions to remove conflict.
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby oldtoby » Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:30 am

so bankrupt were just spamming now eh?
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Lazarus II » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:21 pm

Historical evidence for Jesus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bLlpiWh9-k
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Minardil » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:02 am

Billobob wrote:
Cerin wrote:
Billobob wrote:Of course you don't harass people of other faiths but one religion must be the only true one whether it be Islam,Hinduisim,Christianity,Atheism, or etc since almost all religions contradict each other in crucial ways.


Actually, this is by no means an accepted point (that there must be only one religion that is true). It's my understanding that many people believe that truth has been presented through all of the world's religions and they are all representations of truth, contradictions between them notwithstanding. I've had a difficult time understanding this viewpoint, because it seems so obvious to me that if a religion asserts a certain thing that is contrary to what another religion asserts, then they can't both be truth. I think there must be different working definitions of 'truth' at the heart of these two viewpoints.

I actually have a friend who believes that all religions show a portion of truth so I am pretty sure I understand what you're saying. But I think a lot of it is that many people want to believe all religions can work together and that they do for instance the wheel analogy. This is similar to what happened in Rome with Hellinization mixing religions to remove conflict.



The central messages of all the world's great religions are essentially the same: Love Your Fellow Man, Do Good Works, Practice Charity and Humility, etc. These ideals may be expressed in different ways and in different terms, but when you boil it all down I think it all comes down to the same thing. And in my mind, THIS is the message God wants us to hear. Just about everything else that most people associate with their religions are details that have been added by Man, mostly for the benefit of the people running the religions. I don't believe for one minute that God intended for "accepting Jesus's free gift of salvation" to be the one and only path into His Grace, though the threat "join MY Church and believe what I tell you or you will burn in Hell forever" was probably a very effective recruiting tool for influencing the masses. And I think that's why so many of today's "Christians" are so focused on the bit where they think they get to go to Heaven just for "believing", because "believing" is easy, especially if it means you get to believe you are better than non-believers, and even more especially if it means you can get out if all that "do good works" crap. Really, have you seen the Poor? Bunch of lazy grubbers, so much easier to ignore Christ's command that we all take care of each other and just tell ourselves that we can go to Heaven if we just "accept Jesus's gift" instead.
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Storyteller » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:00 am

Minardil wrote:The central messages of all the world's great religions are essentially the same: Love Your Fellow Man, Do Good Works, Practice Charity and Humility, etc. These ideals may be expressed in different ways and in different terms, but when you boil it all down I think it all comes down to the same thing. And in my mind, THIS is the message God wants us to hear. Just about everything else that most people associate with their religions are details that have been added by Man, mostly for the benefit of the people running the religions.

Basically, anything that doesn't conveniently and neatly align with the prevailing ideology of the day can be declared as "added by Man" and what does align can be declared to be the essence of religion. And once you squeeze religion into the Procrustian bed of mere variations of ethics of reciprocity, you can take the next step and declare religion as such as obsolete and unnecessary. After all, if loving thy neighbor is all that matters, it can be grounded in authority other than God, so why believe?
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Minardil » Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:30 pm

Storyteller wrote:
Minardil wrote:The central messages of all the world's great religions are essentially the same: Love Your Fellow Man, Do Good Works, Practice Charity and Humility, etc. These ideals may be expressed in different ways and in different terms, but when you boil it all down I think it all comes down to the same thing. And in my mind, THIS is the message God wants us to hear. Just about everything else that most people associate with their religions are details that have been added by Man, mostly for the benefit of the people running the religions.

Basically, anything that doesn't conveniently and neatly align with the prevailing ideology of the day can be declared as "added by Man" and what does align can be declared to be the essence of religion. And once you squeeze religion into the Procrustian bed of mere variations of ethics of reciprocity, you can take the next step and declare religion as such as obsolete and unnecessary. After all, if loving thy neighbor is all that matters, it can be grounded in authority other than God, so why believe?


Indeed, why? But I wasn't making an argument against religion, only against the claim that any one particular religion is the One True Faith. As I said, I don't believe that God works that way, that He requires adherence to one particular set of rituals.

But since you bring it up, I don't believe that ethical behavior requires or hinges upon belief in a supreme being, either. Who is more ethical: The "Christian" who only behaves ethically because he fears divine judgement, or the Atheist who doesn't believe in Hell at all, but still behaves ethically because it is the RIGHT THING to do?
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Cerin » Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:41 pm

In response to Minardil's assertion that the messages of all the world's great religions are basically say the same, I wanted to repeat what Frelga pointed out earlier:

Frelga wrote:While of course everyone believes that their world view is the right one, Christianity is practically unique in its model of permanent damnation or salvation that is dependent on the belief rather than actions.


Minardil, this concept (of being saved by faith, not by works) can't accurately be referred to as 'the bit where they get to heaven just by believing'. The reason Christians of this ilk focus on this point, is because it's the absolute foundation of the faith. It's not a bit, it's everything.

The notion that these Christians ' get to believe you are better than non-believers' is commonly expressed, but if you think it through, it's completely illogical. These are the people who believed they were sinners, believed they needed a savior, believed they would go to hell without one. Doesn't logic dictate that it's the people who don't believe they're sinners in need of a savior to save them from hellfire, that have the higher opinion of themselves?
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Frelga » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:35 pm

It's a different paradigm, Cerin. It's not about believing or not believing themselves to be sinners, but about defining sin as either being an action under your control, or a preset condition beyond your control.

One of the opening prayers of the Jewish service goes "Lord, the soul that you gave me is pure."
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Cerin » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:49 pm

Frelga, are you saying, the person praying that prayer considers their soul to be pure because they haven't sinned?
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Frelga » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:50 pm

Not at all. The purity describes the initial state of the soul as provided by God.

I would offer a parable of two runners, where each runner represents a soul according to each paradigm, and running a 6.5-minute mile represents living a virtuous life. One runner says, look, I was born with this inherently flawed body, like pre-serum Steve Rogers, if you watch Marvel movies. No matter how hard I train, it is impossible for me to run that fast. The other says, I was born with this strong and healthy, Captain America body, but I made bad choices, I ate junk food, I avoided exercise, and now it is too weak to run that fast. But, the second runner says, it's all up to me. I can start eating well and training, and I will be able to run much faster.

I don't actually know what a Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim runner would look like. 8)

Here's an article that deals with this concept and provides the full text of the prayer. Elohai N’shama – My Pure Soul

Judaism teaches that every human being enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. Our task in life, and perhaps it is a mission impossible, is to keep it that way.

The prayers we recited today in our Machzor tell us that no one entirely succeeds in avoiding sin. That is what Yom Kippur is all about: recognizing that we have not lived up to the high standard God has set for us. We say that immediately before the Ashamnu confessional, “We are not so arrogant nor so brazen as to say before You, Adonai our God and God of our ancestors, that we are Tzadikim, that we are so righteous, and that we haven’t sinned because, in truth, we all have sinned.

The point of this Elohai Neshama prayer is that the sins we have committed are because we have fallen short, not because we were born with a sinful nature.
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Storyteller » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:18 pm

Minardil wrote:
Storyteller wrote:
Minardil wrote:The central messages of all the world's great religions are essentially the same: Love Your Fellow Man, Do Good Works, Practice Charity and Humility, etc. These ideals may be expressed in different ways and in different terms, but when you boil it all down I think it all comes down to the same thing. And in my mind, THIS is the message God wants us to hear. Just about everything else that most people associate with their religions are details that have been added by Man, mostly for the benefit of the people running the religions.

Basically, anything that doesn't conveniently and neatly align with the prevailing ideology of the day can be declared as "added by Man" and what does align can be declared to be the essence of religion. And once you squeeze religion into the Procrustian bed of mere variations of ethics of reciprocity, you can take the next step and declare religion as such as obsolete and unnecessary. After all, if loving thy neighbor is all that matters, it can be grounded in authority other than God, so why believe?


Indeed, why? But I wasn't making an argument against religion, only against the claim that any one particular religion is the One True Faith.

You weren't and yet you were, as the rest of your post shows.

Religions, like any other cornerstone element of human identity, are defined by their differences, not similarities. Remove those differences and reduce religions merely to instructions for how to live a generally ethical life, and indeed you don't need them anymore. It's the same with people when you go by the lowest common denominator. Two arms, two legs, one head - everyone's the same, except somehow one is Mother Theresa and another is Osama Bin Laden, and the only way left to make sense of it is through the ever-useless musings about "banality of evil" that explain nothing and help nobody.

It's the differences that matter. It is when religions' particular quirks are declared - with any amount of best intentions - either unimportant altogether or less important than their supposed universal message that religion as such ceases to serve any useful function. The "universal message" is the useless lowest denominator which does not make anyone more moral or better behaved, not does it advance anyone's understanding of anything.
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Minardil » Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:12 am

. Two arms, two legs, one head - everyone's the same, except somehow one is Mother Theresa and another is Osama Bin Laden, and the only way left to make sense of it is through the ever-useless musings about "banality of evil" that explain nothing and help nobody.


This is so far from the point I was making as to be intentionally dishonest. Bearing False Witness is a sin in pretty much any religion, isn't it? I should not have to explain that I think that a person like Mother Theresa, who spent her entire life caring for the poor, is a person who DOES follow God's central message, while murderous terrorists are not. Stop building pathetic strawmen.
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby JewelSong » Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:21 am

If you will kindly read this first post, it explains why only Christians can get to heaven.


What happens to everybody else, do you suppose?
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Cerin » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:43 am

Thanks for explaining, Frelga!

I'm having trouble understanding the relevance of the difference in paradigms, since your explanation of the prayer states that no one succeeds in living a life free from sin (or in terms of your runner analogy, neither runner will succeed in running that 6.5 minute mile, if that 6.5 represents God's standard).

Although the Christian of a certain ilk believes they are born with a predisposition to sin, this doesn't mean that Christian believes they aren't responsible for their wrong actions, or that they don't have the ability to decide not to engage in a particular sin.

So getting back to your runners, your runner runs the race knowing the decisions he makes can make him a better runner, but knowing he won't be able to make that time (since no one attains to God's standard), and my runner runs the race also knowing that his life choices can affect his running ability, but knowing he won't be able to make the time (since no one attains to God's standard). I don't see that much difference there.

Or looked at another way, referring to this quote:

“We are not so arrogant nor so brazen as to say before You, Adonai our God and God of our ancestors, that we are Tzadikim, that we are so righteous, and that we haven’t sinned because, in truth, we all have sinned."

If it is acknowledged as inevitable that all have sinned, how is that practically different from acknowledging that a tendency to sin is a part of human nature? In the end, the view of the soul as pure or sinful does not affect the outcome -- we all sin. And thus (as I see it), you require the observance of Yom Kippur, and I require my acceptance of Christ's redemptive work.
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Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Postby Storyteller » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:48 am

Minardil wrote:
. Two arms, two legs, one head - everyone's the same, except somehow one is Mother Theresa and another is Osama Bin Laden, and the only way left to make sense of it is through the ever-useless musings about "banality of evil" that explain nothing and help nobody.


This is so far from the point I was making as to be intentionally dishonest. Bearing False Witness is a sin in pretty much any religion, isn't it? I should not have to explain that I think that a person like Mother Theresa, who spent her entire life caring for the poor, is a person who DOES follow God's central message, while murderous terrorists are not. Stop building pathetic strawmen.

I think you have completely missed my point. And it wasn't even a very subtle point.
"...Their aim in war with Germany is nothing more, nothing less than extermination of Hitlerism... There is absolutely no justification for this kind of war. The ideology of Hitlerism, just like any other ideological system, can be accepted or rejected, this is a matter of political views. But everyone grasps, that an ideology can not be exterminated by force, must not be finished off with a war.” - Vyacheslav Molotov, ""On the Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", 31 October 1939
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