Should Gays/Lesbians be allowed to adopt children

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Postby Cerin » Wed Mar 21, 2001 10:54 pm

As a matter of clarification (and not meaning to be crude) I think a fundamental point is that sexual relations between two women or two men isn't a true "joining," that is parts fitting together in the way they were designed to fit with the possible result of procreation. I mean, I know all sorts of things are fashionable, but I think what the bible refers to as becoming one flesh is the act of sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. So if someone is coming from a biblical perspective, anything other than that is a counterfeit of what God intended sexual relations to be and would thus be considered unnatural.<BR><BR>To continue in the fundamental vein, if you were to take a hint from the physical nature of things and assume a continuity of design, observing that two women or two men have no hope of naturally producing a child together you might extrapolate from that, that two women or two men aren't naturally suited to parent a child together either.<BR><BR>This is not to say I feel qualified to make judgments on other people's personal decisions. I don't know what it's like to deal with the complications and pressures of being gay in a world that predominantly is not.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
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Postby Nienna » Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:00 am

IE, I think the way some Christians (and I'm not slamming them - this is what they believe based on the way they approach their faith, and that's fair enough) would respond to your statement is that we are all sinners (of course), but we (the rest of us? the straight people? - this is why I hate the Christian position on this issue - it seems to assume that straight people are automatically better) recognize our sins, repent and ask for forgiveness, while a practicing homosexual couple is choosing to live in sin and turning their back on what the Bible implies that God said is wrong. I don't agree with this at all - just trying to clarify the difference from that point of view.<BR><BR>
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Postby JRRTfanatic » Thu Mar 22, 2001 5:55 am

Cerin - in 'Movies' there is very little that i disagree with you on, but your latter points do not make sense to me. I may be wrong, but you seem to be going back to the old 'it's not natural' chestnut. Well, taking it at face value it may not be. You are right that gay people will never naturally produce children. But without the aid of the motor vehicle I'd never travel the 250 odd miles to uni in a day. Cars are unnatural. For that matter I'd not be typing this in a 'natural' world - pc's are a damn site more unnantural than a homosexual relationship. Evidently you would not let a pc bring uo a child, but my point is valid. We do not live in a 'Natural' world anymore, and there is no founding for the 'unnatural' argument - we've surpassed much of what is natural or unnatural. To say that something is unnatural should no longer mean that it is also bad. Heart surgery is not natural. The athsma inhaler that I regularly use to ease my wheeziness is not natural. These things are not bad. And in the same way a homosexual relationship is not natural, but it is not bad in any way, and it should have no bearing on allowing someone to give a child a loving home. Adoption of children, or the viability of fertility treatment should be based soley on a couples ability to give a child a good home.
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Postby The_Grey_Pilgrim » Thu Mar 22, 2001 6:08 am

Shel,<BR><BR>That is a good question, but we know that the admonitions were given to the Levites, or priests of Israel. These would be, in every case, men.<BR><BR>I hope that this answers your question well enough.
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Postby InnocentEvil » Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:13 am

I see the point you're trying to clarify, Nienna. I think it's sad that because homosexuality is.. hmm.. hard to find a word for this.. a 'public' sin(IE. it's very visable if the couple is 'out) that somehow qualifies it as being a more severe sin than the ones that go on in the privacy of people's home. It's sad that someone who, say, shoplifts for fun but has never been caught, or emotionally abuses thier family in the privacy of thier own home, could be considered a more worthy parent than a loving couple with an alternative lifestyle.
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Postby Shelrond » Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:51 am

Thanks TGP. That answers the question, although I was being facetious. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>This is going to be one of those "agree to disagree" topics<BR>for me.<BR>I have neither the desire nor the ability to change my life<BR>and/or sexual orientation.<BR><BR><BR>However, if any of you would like me to change YOUR lives, come on over! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby InnocentEvil » Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:56 am

Shelrond.. if ever we should meet.. prepare to be hugged!
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Postby Nira » Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:02 am

I’d like to ask an additional question here. I have seen two points in this thread that <b>I</b> feel are relevant arguments in the discussion of children being adopted by Gay people.<BR><BR>The first is that intolerance in the general public may cause the child problems. This may in some cases be true, but I would not let the intolerant people argue that because of their intolerance adoption should not be allowed. The fight against racism and sexism stood before the same line of reasoning and we changed it (to a certain degree anyway)<BR><BR>NB. I do not say that everyone that base their opinion on the bible intolerant. As Kel said he treated homosexuals as any other, even though he found their behavior morally wrong. I do not like his view, but I respect it. <BR><BR>I would like to warn about how one speaks of homosexual in the presence of children though. It’s easy to let derogatory words or attitudes slip through and kids will pick it up, interpret it and use it in a way none of us wants. <BR><BR>One should not only speak to kids about respecting others, but also show it in your daily life. A kid will be much less likely to bully someone with homosexual parents if they are not <b>taught</b> to by either words or action.<BR><BR>Oh yea the question? Here it is.<BR><BR>The other is that they need both male and female role models. As others have pointed out an extended family can provide that. I’m interested in hearing your view on why this is so important though. What do you think the consequences of an upbringing dominated by one sex are?<BR><BR>PS IE, I agree that even if being homosexual is a sin, it should not be used as an argument against adoption. Everybody agrees that every human ever does sin regulary, and this particular “biblical sin” does not diminish the ability to parent a child. <BR>
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Postby The_Grey_Pilgrim » Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:09 am

Shel,<BR><BR><BR>I love you no matter what! <BR><BR><BR><BR>However if I were gay I would make you my man.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby Shelrond » Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:16 am

All right!! A hug from IE and a date with TGP in an alternate universe! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Add to the fact that I also won a CD Carrying case from Snapple this morning and this is one of my best days in a long time!<BR><BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Cerin » Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:42 am

jrt<BR><BR>I don't disagree with anything you said. I just wanted to point out (in my earlier post) what I think is the most basic point, that two women or two men aren't designed to fit together sexually, and I think that is the basis for the aversion that much of society still feels towards homosexual relationships and for the biblical admonition against them. Beyond simply observing that, I'm not sure personally what conclusions to draw from it.<BR><BR>As far as the adoptions go, I think any gay couple has to prepare themselves for the day when their child will ask, "Why don't I have a Mommy and a Daddy?" and face the fact that they are choosing to have a child in their life in spite of the potential confusion and distress it may eventually cause. The same goes for single women deciding to bring a child into the world without the continued presence of a father.<BR>
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Postby JRRTfanatic » Thu Mar 22, 2001 12:36 pm

In the same way that a heterosexual couple will have to prepare themselves for the day that their child asks where babies come from? If the kid has been brought up properly it will be confident in who it is.<BR><BR>I see that gay couples will have unique challenges to contend with, but I don't see that they will be any greater than a heterosexual couples, or for that matter a single parent's. <BR><BR>Furthermore, for a gay couple issues of sexuality may not be as taboo as with many heterosexual couples, and therefore the child may actually get a better picture of different lifestyles, and be able to make a more informed decision. Dealt with in a responsible way there would be no confusion. Quite the opposite, if every type of lifestyle is shown to the kid, whether it be religous, regarding sexuality, regarding political preference, whatever, I think there would be no room for confusion. If the child is denied access to information about lifestyles different to it's own parents THEN there could be confusion IMO. Not superficially, but at a more fundamental level. This works regardless of the sexual orientation of the parents.<BR><BR>I do agree with your comments on why there may be aversion to homosexuality for the reasons that you state, but I'd argue that this is good cause to attempt to change those attitudes, and not to give into the public battering against a certain lifestyle, or what is percieved to be right or wrong.
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Postby Dean stole our precious! » Thu Mar 22, 2001 12:43 pm

I am not homophobic but I belive that a child has the right to have a Father and a Mother, how can 2 women understand the needs of a boy and likewise how can 2 men understand the needs of a girl?
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Postby Nienna » Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:20 pm

Cerin, I may be wrong, but your last post implies that the confusion an adopted child of a gay couple might feel is the gay couple's fault for adopting the child. Wouldn't it be the fault of those who look down on or refuse to accept the child because of his family and not the couple's? There was a time when interracial marriage was considered an abomination, and probably even a sin by some groups. Would following your heart, marrying the person you love and having a child make you responsible for the ignorance and narrowmindedness of others? <BR><BR>
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Postby Cerin » Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:01 pm

jrt<BR><BR>No, I think in a different way than that. They will have to explain why their family is not "normal." It's no use pretending there is no norm, or ideal. The ideal is suggested by our physical make-up, a man and a woman bring forth a child, a man and a woman parent that child. That child may eventually want to know how it works, but they will not get the sense that they are missing something. The child adopted by a gay couple will eventually realize that he is missing either a mother or a father. Then the couple (or the single by choice parent) will have to explain why they felt that would be ok. <BR> <BR>As far as your remarks about presenting a variety of lifestyles, I find I disagree. We don't bring up children showing them a variety of lifestyles, political choices, religious choices. We bring up our children within the context of our own beliefs. Children need the safety and security of specific boundaries in order to discover who they are, in order to grow up strong and secure enough to eventually arrive at their own beliefs. Children need a concrete set of values to relate to as they grow, not a hodge-podge or a grab bag of potential idealogies. You can't present a child with a variety of choices until they are mature enough to deal with them. You don't ask a baby if they're ready to go to bed, they would probably say "no" because it's more fun to play; you tell them it's time to go to bed. You don't present a child with information about the world's religions, you bring them up in a religion so they understand the value of a set of spiritual beliefs for their life. When they're old enough they may choose differently, but they will understand the value of it because they lived it with you, not because you offered them a variety of intellectual choices.<BR><BR>As far as changing attitudes, people who think homosexual acts are wrong because of the reasons I stated have a valid point of view. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on it, I think, not that one point of view or the other should be cancelled out as wrong, not that one point of view or the other should be forced on anyone.<BR><BR>
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Postby Cerin » Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:21 pm

Nienna<BR><BR>I think I addressed that some in my response to jrtfanatic. It is not at all about what other people think. It goes to a foundational concept that human beings were not meant to mate indiscriminately and then separate, that there is something sound and sacred about the committed union of a man and a woman and that from that union comes a child. I'm not suggesting that alternative types of families can't be loving, I'm suggesting that a child whose existence involves some element beyond the union of their natural parents will at some point want to know why. In the cases I've noted, a gay couple and a single by choice mother, the child is going to realize that their acting parent/s chose that for them, and I think that might be an issue as some children grow up and begin to long for the mother or father figure they realize they are missing.<BR>
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Postby peregin2k » Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:39 pm

<i>I belive that a child has the right to have a Father and a Mother, how can 2 women understand the needs of a boy and likewise how can 2 men understand the needs of a girl? </i><BR><BR>Dean,<BR>I'm not buying your logic here, so you're telling me a single dad who has a daughter wouldn't understand the needs of a girl or a single mom who has a son wouldn't understand the needs of a boy. Is that it? Man, they could get lots of advice from their male and female friends or their parents (if they are supportive). <BR><BR><i>The same goes for single women deciding to bring a child into the world without the continued presence of a father.</i><BR><BR>You can't say that they won't understand. Once you become a parent you'll have to understand both genders needs. <BR><BR>Slightly off topic, a child wouldn't have prejudices unless his parents told him or he sees it in his parents. Yes, a child would ask questions but the way you answer them will affect him throughout his life.
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Postby ereine » Fri Mar 23, 2001 12:28 am

The attitudes of parents affect children a lot, I'm pretty sure that I've got some from my mother without even realising it, luckily my mother is fairly open-minded (except she doesn't like Christians). <BR>And with the divorce rates we have (in Finland I think that half of marriages end up in divorce) there isn't that sort of traditional family with a mother and a father anymore, maybe in future families could be more like groups that include people of all ages who aren't even related, then the children would see different lifestyles growing up. Lack of gradparents can be bad, I think that old people a lot to offer to younger people and vice versa. <BR>
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Postby Kelannar » Fri Mar 23, 2001 12:51 am

Cerin, I wholeheartedly agree in your assessment of the psychological needs of children. Children are not adults. They need structure. They cannot be presented with the choices of the world on a platter and be expected to rationally choose among them. All too often, however, I think that modern theories towards children have taken that approach - for the worse. A child needs to learn from adults. They cannot be expected to rediscover the wheel, or to create a fundamental morality on their own either. This issue is broader than this topic alone - it encompasses modern theories of education and discipline (both of which have gone wacky).
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Postby pavelnash » Fri Mar 23, 2001 7:56 am

Oh dear! I was looking for another thread and this one caught my eye in passing. Being another gay man (hi Shel! you're not alone here) I couldn't help myself. But I wish I hadn't now.
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Postby Beleg » Fri Mar 23, 2001 8:30 am

Sounds to me like we're dealing with an urban myth here. From what I see of this discussion, those in favor of gay adoption basically assume that adoption is a civil right. I cannot see that it is and would like for someone to point to some authoritative (i.e., not some academic's special pleading) source for stating unequivocatively that adoption is a civil right. <BR><BR>If it is a privilege, like a driver's license only far more fundamentally important to society, then it follows that society has every right to say who is and who is not qualified to be accorded that privilege. Now, also from the present discussion, it appears that many now take the utilitarian point of view that some individuals can be said to be authoritative and, despite the basic problem that the transaction is silently considered a civil right, these persons can inquire into the fitness of the applying person(s) to decide whether they can adopt and in fact can decide who the applicants can adopt. So, you apparently want it both ways and in both ways you want to have gays/lesbians given special rights. That doesn't sound equitable and I don't even accept the premise that homosexuals make good parents, even under the best circumstances.<BR><BR>Now, I'm sure you all think I'm against gay adoption per se. I lean against it, that is very true, but there's always an exception. In general, to choose homosexuality is to choose against the possibility that one will ever procreate. That's simply a fact, not a judgment. So if this couple who have chosen to pursue a lifestyle that denies child=bearing by definition now choose to adopt, well in one very unimportant sense that is laudable, but is also totally conflicted. It is special pleading to ask that children be raised in an environment whose every other characteristic is self-oriented and anti-diverse (after all, isn't heterosexuality the most diversity-friendly condition, among these alternatives?). I can see children growing up able to form healthy heterosexual relationships, but it's far less likely, just as it's far less likely that children of divorce are far less likely to form stable permanent relations. That's just what happens.<BR><BR>Finally, it should be pointed out that in fact there is no shortage of requests for adoption by heterosexuals. Indeed, there appears to be a shortage of children to adopt. The cost of adopting, already heavy simply due to the examination process, is increased by the basic law of supply and demand: there is more demand than there is supply, so the sellers can raise the price and thus clear the market at a very nice profit to themselves. So, why take social risks when there is no need to?
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Postby ereine » Fri Mar 23, 2001 11:14 am

I read something scary in a newspaper today (of course some people probably think that it's only a sign that Finnish youth have healthy opinions).<BR>These comments appeared on a story about students in school in some very small town, the students were about 17 or 18. (The translation is by me so if you don't understand anything then it's my fault)<BR>A member of parliament who's from that town has said that there won't be any babies if gay marriages are allowed (I find that very interesting, I don't think that the possibility of getting married is going to make anyone gay).<BR>Of the 16 students two were for gay marriages, 13 against and one wouldn't comment.<BR>"I am religious. There's more to relatioships than just sex, but I think that homosexuality is unnatural. Humans weren't created to be like that."<BR>"Love in a marriagecomes from god. Of course friends can love each other but it isn't like love in marriage."<BR>"We were created to be men and women. I guess that homosexuality is founded in early experiences or other things. Gay couples should never be allowed to adopt children because then there can be more gay people."<BR>When the journalist asked the girl in question if she also would be gay if she grew up in a lesbian family she said "In principle yes I guess. Becoming like the people around you is a central part of growing up."<BR>"Bible has the rules we have live by. You can't inteprate it or change it based on what the world finds acceptable. In this matter bible is above human rights."<BR>When they asked if we should follow all laws in bible and are only Christians worth human rights she said:<BR>"...I mean that all normal people are equal." <BR>A boy was asked what he would do if he heard that the boy sitting next to him was gay "He wouldn't be the same Ari I know anymore. It would be quite disgusting. It would be best if he stayed away from me."<BR>What if new male teacher was found out to be gay? "I'd think that he was a clown. If I'm honest I wouldn't even be interested in going to his classes."<BR>"I think the same way as the local member of parliament. There won't be any children in Finland if homosexuals are allowed to get married. I have a good solution, let's send them all to Sweden. There's lots of them already." (so they're racist as well as homophobic)<BR><BR>The people who were for gay marriages said<BR>"If they love each other and want to follow their sexuality I have nothing against it. It's their business."<BR>"How do you separate friendship and love? Why can't you accept that people are different and everyone has the right to be themselves. Love comes from humans not from god."<BR><BR>So what do you think of these attitudes? <BR>
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Postby Shelrond » Fri Mar 23, 2001 12:42 pm

Hi Pavelnash! It's good to have a compatriot.<BR>You can take over now. I'm tired.<BR>I kind of like the irony of meeting in this thread!! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby JRRTfanatic » Fri Mar 23, 2001 12:44 pm

LOL, Shel!!<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby Dean stole our precious! » Fri Mar 23, 2001 1:33 pm

p2k, the point I was making is mainly about the fact that a child deserves the RIGHT to have 2 parents, male and female, supportive friends, although helpful are IMO second best.
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Postby JRRTfanatic » Fri Mar 23, 2001 1:37 pm

And I think that men should have the RIGHT to bear children.<BR><BR>But men can't bear children.<BR><BR>That doesn't mean that they shouldn't have the RIGHT to!<BR><BR>I'm sure that was a Python sketch.
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Postby Dean stole our precious! » Fri Mar 23, 2001 1:44 pm

But children can have 2 parents, male and female. That wasn't a Monty Python sketch.
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Postby InnocentEvil » Fri Mar 23, 2001 4:46 pm

Children deserve a loving home with as many people to care for and shelter and nurture them as possible. But things don't always work out the way we'd like. Sometimes fathers walk away from pregnant mothers. Sometimes mothers die in child birth. It happens. Sometimes both parents die and the child has to be raised by grandparents, or friends of the family. That doesn't mean those children don't have a 'family.'<BR><BR>Is there some kind of psychological study on child development that states that gays are somehow permissive parents who let thier children wander the streets and give them no moral guidance? Funny, child development is my major and I've never seen such material. In fact, I've never seen ANY kind of study that says gay parents are any more or less permissive than straight. <BR><BR>I HAVE seen studies on parenting that include both gay and straight parenting partners that indicate children raised by gay parents test about the same as children raised by straight on many levels. They test a little higher in areas of tolerance and empathy for other children. <BR><BR>I'm not saying that anyone has the 'right' to become a parent. I am simply saying that I don't think my neighbor being gay and my being straight makes me the more deserving parent.
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Postby peregin2k » Fri Mar 23, 2001 4:56 pm

Beleg,<BR>Yes, adopting children is a privilage not a right I agree, but it's not like driver's license that if you fail the driver's test you know you're not fit. Now, with adoption is there a criteria that says these are the traits we are looking for so you'll be qualified/certified excellent parent. Yes, there is, but it's very difficult to determine just by having a social worker go around following your every move or recommendations or personality test. Why don't you conduct a test first, like a driver's license, get a kid and see if they are good parents. Well, you can't do that, right?! There is no manual for "How to become a good parent". It comes naturally. It's not giving homosexuals special rights as you see it (I'm advocating single people rights to adopt kids, too.), it should be for everybody and people should not be discriminated because of their sexual, religious orientation and skin color. I've read somewhere that it would be difficult for a caucasian to adopt a black kid because of their skin color, they don't know the needs of a black kid. I find that ridiculous. Let's face it, we can't change the world there are homosexuals, single parents and visual minorities, around us, whether we like or not, and they should be given the same privilage as everybody and no special treatments. Giving homosexuals the right to adopt is not a privilage cause they are humans like you and me. It's human rights like allowing visual minorities the right to adopt a caucasian kid.<BR><BR>Give me stats which says there is a shortage of kids to be adopted, well, maybe in America. There are a lot of kids around the world waiting to be adopted (you want me to cite countries), it's just that the process is taking too long or the country won't allow people (from another country) to do it cause it might become the source of child traffiking (wrong spelling?), pornography etc... Some stupid people who still thinks you should adopt a kid from your own racial origin or they just want babies not older kids. The process takes too long these kids are teenagers by the time they get adopted. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>You can't generalize that kids from broken homes are not capable of a lasting relationship or take care of kids, cause sometimes they learn from their parents' mistakes and try to really work hard in having a lasting relationship.<BR><BR>Dean,<BR>I'd rather raise my child alone (heaven forbid!) than getting a "new" wife just so my kid will have somebody to call his mom. I think single parents are capable of raising kids as good as 2 parents, so I don't see it as a "right".
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Postby InnocentEvil » Fri Mar 23, 2001 5:12 pm

As to the question of whether there is a shortage of children to be adopted in the US... exactly the opposite. There are many children waiting for loving homes. However, most social service agencies find that the vast majority of parents wishing to adopt will only take an infant. Perhaps the distinction should be made between CHILDREN and INFANTS available for adoption.<BR><BR>There is certainly a shortage of newborn babies to adopt. People seem to believe that if they don't get to have the child from birth or early infancy, it won't truly be THEIR child. Of course, that's not true and it sadly prevents needy children from getting the homes they deserve.
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