The stages of evolution

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Postby Annael » Sat Jun 02, 2001 11:27 am

Sex is not a sin. Non-marital sex is a sin. You can have all the sex you want with your marital partner. God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, in other words, 'go have sex!'.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Beleg » Sat Jun 02, 2001 5:05 pm

runes: the sin was disobedience and pride, not sex. And the wages was not 'you can't have sex anymore 'cause it's dirty', but rather the heaviest penalty: death. Adam and Eve began dying the moment they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge (the symbol there is more important). The lure was that they would then be 'as God'. Well, that's the tempter talking and the result wasn't going to be what he promised, only that Adam and Eve would cease being capable of not sinning. This means that upon committing that first sin, they lost the supernatural assistance of God in avoiding sin by summoning the willpower to resist temptation. They were human before they sinned, they were human afterwards and there was no dimunition in their humanity by having sinned. They simply lost the ability not to sin. This is what Original Sin is actually about: not that children are considered guilty of Adam's sin, but that they are born without the ability not to sin. Granted that infants haven't the capacity even to do good, but they will grow and their intelligence, emotion and will eventually will develop sufficiently that they can sin on their own. They then incur guilt for actual sin. <BR><BR>This is why Baptism, by the way. It is the symbolic burial of the unaided Man and the simultaneous birth of the Man aided by grace. The sacrament does not restore the full capacity Adam and Eve were granted, but a measure of assistance in resisting sin is indeed granted. <BR><BR>This, maybe, is more than you wanted to know, but I didn't want you walking away with a caricature of the theology on this point when the answer is clearly known and relatively easily expressed.<BR><BR>Peace. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Sauron_the_Maia » Sat Jun 02, 2001 6:01 pm

Beleg says: <i>"This lack, of which evolutionists are still so oblivious, has had emotional freight for scientists in the field for reasons of which the urge to hypothesize evolutionally is only a part and it is not at all clear that later generations will operate under the same degree of blinkeredness."</i><BR><BR>Verily, the most obtuse and (if I may take a word from your plump lexicon) "bigoted" statement I've yet read by you (though admittedly it's fairly mild and I'm not terribly upset by it). Do you honestly believe scientists haven't investigated precisely how order may arise from disorder by means of evolution? You say: <i>"There will be no philosophical underpinning for the orderly facts that evolution exhibits and thus later generations are going to notice this."</i> This stems, I reckon, from your denial that "order can arise spontaneously from chaos" (I'll set aside for now your implication that all scientists nowadays are "blinkered" idiots). Would you care to give me a scientific accounting (or some groundwork or buzzword, anyway) for why it is that you ween order cannot ever arise from disorder in the physical universe? Why do you think it is impossible that evolution can proceed the way it is being proposed by biologists in accordance to natural laws and nothing else? Why, now, do you think that a God is a necessary component of the theory?<BR><BR>I am quite curious to hear your answer and would like an exchange of ideas on this matter.
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Postby Annael » Sat Jun 02, 2001 7:30 pm

Beleg,<BR><BR>I always understood that it was the knowledge of right and wrong which made them sin. They walked around naked before they ate the fruit and it was not counted as a sin. After eating the fruit, Adam and Eve then knew that they were naked and covered themselves. Now they knew it was a sin to walk around naked. In the same way, a 2 year old running around naked is not counted as sinning, but that same person 20 years later would be commiting a sin.
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Postby podge&rog » Sun Jun 03, 2001 5:58 pm

Kelannar. FYITE Thank you for you profound insight into bundle all.<BR><BR>Beleg.<BR><BR>I`m sorry, where have I said any of that. I am still waiting for an answer to the points I`ve raised. Clearly some sort of map is in order to help one from ending up so far away from the point.<BR><BR>I do not believe in God/s. Full Stop. Thank you and goodnight. I feel no sense of loss, arrogance, self-satisfication or anything other than respect (of a kind I expect to be reciprocated) for people who acknowledge a faith.<BR><BR>You seem to have more of a problem with God than I do. I denie the existence of a creator as well as the need for one. I am happy with that, its my credo. I cannot argue, and will not be drawn into an argument as circular and tautological as "Does God exist?".<BR>You believe, good for you. I don`t good for me.<BR><BR>Oh and perfect imperfect world, please. And I won`t follow orders if I think they are wrong, I don`t care WHO gives them. If you are seriously trying to follow this line of argument, I refuse to follow. I prefer a much less precarious foot-hold.<BR><BR>To recap:<BR><BR> Do you accept evolution among organic life or not?<BR><BR>Do you agree that Darwin`s theory of natural selection, is a credible explanation of some, if not all of the mechanisms involved?<BR><BR><BR>If as seems to be the case, you do, at least in part, great. <BR><BR>Would it be fair to say that the problem lies with the progenitor, the power that created creation? You believe it was God, I don`t and, with the greatest respect, don`t care.<BR><BR>For me the universe is, simple as that. I see no need for a creator, no master plan, no nothing. You see things in a different way, fair play to ya! Perhaps you are right and I am wrong, but as niether of us is in any position to catergorically refute the other, whats the point.<BR><BR>For the sake of argument I am prepared to accept the possibility of an overall creator of te universe. A universe created to act autonomously as its creator intended. As such is it not possible that science has stumbled upon some of those mechanisms and made good attempts to understand them?<BR>Clearly we cannot hope to emulate creation from our meagre understanding, but as we seek to become more like him, perhaps these a our first tentative steps. <BR><BR>If al we have done is to discover the wonder of Gods creation what is your problem? Can such a philosophy be robust enough to allow a for a difference in specifics.<BR><BR>Your ultimate answer is God. I don`t have one, yet. I also don`t feel I need one. Yes, I know you don`t feel the need for one either.<BR><BR>So do we have some agreement on natural selection/ evolution?. PLEASE NOTE: They are not the same thing and neither is random.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Oh and BTW. Evolution by natural selection has been around for 3.5 billion years - Your point again?<BR><BR><BR>Nothing of the above is intended of should be inferred to be, insulting etc. etc.
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Postby Sauron_the_Maia » Mon Jun 04, 2001 10:25 pm

Time to bump this hot potato to the fore. I still intend to start an evolution thread of my own, but only have so much time to rant each day. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby podge&rog » Tue Jun 05, 2001 8:14 pm

Sauron TM.<BR><BR>Good work fella. I look forward to it. We seem to share a similar view of things, let me know when you get it up and running.<BR><BR>Oh, BTW. I`ve enjoyed reading your posts here. Good effort. Nice to know I`m not alone.
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Postby Annael » Tue Jun 05, 2001 8:23 pm

Sauron, do you have actual proof that it happened that way, or are you just really into cramming your beliefs down other people's throats?<BR><BR>Just wondering.
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Postby Sauron_the_Maia » Tue Jun 05, 2001 11:16 pm

Annael,<BR>You're going to see stuff done in labs I'm willing to bet you've never heard of before in completion (if at all). Even "creation scientists" seem afraid to mention them.<BR><BR><BR>podge&rog,<BR>Right on! (Or should I say "write on"?) <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby tuile » Tue Jun 05, 2001 11:30 pm

Hey Podje&rog, you aren't alone!!! I've been following this thread after contributing to it a bit in the begining but I just got pooped out asking questions that were never addressed and trying to reply to the same ones over and over again. Obviously I need practice!!!<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> You and Sauron TM's responses are interesting to read (as are the questions <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>) and I too look forward to the evolution thread! Even if I can't think of anything good to say!!<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0>
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Postby Sauron_the_Maia » Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:31 pm

I agree that this thread has intrinsic value, Tuile. So, up it goes! And never surrender!
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Postby runes » Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:34 pm

i like music.<BR>music sometimes hurts me.<BR>then i cry.<BR>i like celery.<BR>celery does not hurt me.<BR>except when it tries to kill me with a knife.<BR>
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Postby Sauron_the_Maia » Fri Jun 08, 2001 3:45 am

An interesting addition to a thread you started yourself, Runes.
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