Conscientious objectors (sivari)

Manwë was known for many things, but wisdom and power are two that lead the rest of his attributes. Join the Councils and discuss the more weighty matters of Tolkien Fandom.

Postby !ISAIAH! » Thu Feb 15, 2001 5:19 am

Yeah, good debate!!<BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
User avatar
!ISAIAH!
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 12241
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 4:57 am
Location: Finland
Top

Postby Nira » Thu Feb 15, 2001 5:37 am

Yes it is, but what I meant is if you change the wording "benefit" what about the "meaning" of what I said.<BR><BR>If one say no to go the army based on "I do not think killing is right", but are willing to kill to defend you’re loved one, the argument looses some of it's power. It even comes of little egoistic IMO.<BR><BR>I don't know what I would do my self. I would not have fought in the Gulf war (mostly about oil), Bosnia ?? If someone attacked my home country?? I really do not know.<BR><BR>I have done my year in the military, and I agree that you do not learn to kill. In fact I did not learn anything worth wile at all. I can shine the hell out a pair of shoes though <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR>
User avatar
Nira
Ranger of the North
 
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 2:28 pm
Top

Postby !ISAIAH! » Thu Feb 15, 2001 5:54 am

Oooops!!<BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Well, I understand that it seems a bit egoistic! I am willing to defend my loved ones but the main reason is still that I do not understand how can a man order someone to kill a man?? ( am I repeating myself here??? <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> ). Killing in all it's forms is bad but can you imagine pasifist not defending his family when someone tries to hurt them??? I'm only being realistic! Noone wants to go to war <BR>-civil servant or not- but every man is ready to fight for his children, it doesn't have anything to do with being egoistic!<BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
User avatar
!ISAIAH!
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 12241
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 4:57 am
Location: Finland
Top

Postby !ISAIAH! » Thu Feb 15, 2001 5:59 am

... and not all is so black and white!<BR>
User avatar
!ISAIAH!
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 12241
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 4:57 am
Location: Finland
Top

Postby !ISAIAH! » Thu Feb 15, 2001 6:44 am

<a target=new href="http://www.web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/index/EUR200012000?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\FINLAND">http://www.web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/index/EUR200012000?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\FINLAND</a><BR><BR><BR><BR>Nowadays it's a lot easier to be a civil servant in Finland but it could be easier! As you can see from this article that people like me are not very liked! I don't mind that and I know that Finland is a small country and we have suffered a lot in the past! I respect the war veterans (they gave us our independence) but the way people are talking about army and being a soldier just makes me sick! Army doens't make you a man, it doesn't make you a better person, we all know that! But here some people raise finnish army to a level of religion and that is just too much for me!!
User avatar
!ISAIAH!
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 12241
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 4:57 am
Location: Finland
Top

Postby AsGoot » Thu Feb 15, 2001 7:16 am

ISIAIH, do you mean that you'll be doing civil service then (which is the legal alternative, IMO much more beneficial to the country than the army for practical reasons that I'll get into later), or are you going to be a total objector, i.e. going to prison?<BR><BR>Civil service = helping the government in non-armed ways, such as healthcare. (My brother worked as a 'computer guy' for foreign aid).<BR><BR>Personally, I feel that civil service is a good alternative as most young men choose the army (or the defense forces, whatever) anyway. When I was younger I felt the same as ISAIAH there, and still do to some extent, but I've come to the conclusion (history has taught us some pretty harsh lessons) that finns cannot do away with the army. Just check out who it is we have 1000km land border with to the east. Until the neghbor changes its ways totally (and it certainly does not look like it) I'm afraid we must have some sort of army.<BR><BR>OTOH I can't see why say central European countries like Germany, Netherlands etc. couldn't do away with the army, as they have the priviledge of being surrounded by civilized states.
User avatar
AsGoot
Servant of the Secret Fire

 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 3:31 am
Top

Postby !ISAIAH! » Thu Feb 15, 2001 7:17 am

Oooops!!!<BR>Sorry, I'm not a total objector!!<BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
User avatar
!ISAIAH!
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 12241
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 4:57 am
Location: Finland
Top

Postby !ISAIAH! » Thu Feb 15, 2001 7:22 am

But if I wouldn't have to go to jail I would be a total objector!<BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
User avatar
!ISAIAH!
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 12241
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 4:57 am
Location: Finland
Top

Postby Klonkku » Thu Feb 15, 2001 7:24 am

Would you kill, Isaiah, if you'd be ordered to kill or be killed if not accomplishing the orders?<BR><BR>Would you kill, if your parents would be threated to be killed if you would resist?<BR><BR>Would you kill, if you'd see a helpless human being crawl in pain and no hope of survival? Would you end his pain or let him suffer? ( I'm not being sexist; 'he' just came to my mind first )<BR><BR>those are questions I think even you have hard time to answer. <BR><BR>those are still just questions <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
User avatar
Klonkku
Ringbearer


 
Posts: 14929
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2001 11:30 pm
Location: Mostly harmless.
Top

Postby Moonlight » Thu Feb 15, 2001 7:26 am

<i>Would you kill, if you'd see a helpless human being crawl in pain and no hope of survival? Would you end his pain or let him suffer? ( I'm not being sexist; 'he' just came to my mind first )</i><BR><BR>This leads to the euthanasia question and for me that's a whole different discussion.
User avatar
Moonlight
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 3570
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 8:06 am
Top

Postby !ISAIAH! » Thu Feb 15, 2001 7:30 am

Well, noone cannot answer those questions, noone has to answer them!!<BR>When you find yourself in a situation like that you cannot think, you cannot try to remember how deep your conviction was, you just act!<BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
User avatar
!ISAIAH!
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 12241
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 4:57 am
Location: Finland
Top

Postby !ISAIAH! » Thu Feb 15, 2001 7:32 am

I have answered some of your questions in my earlier posts in this thread, Klonkku!!<BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
User avatar
!ISAIAH!
Ringbearer

 
Posts: 12241
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 4:57 am
Location: Finland
Top

Postby Klonkku » Thu Feb 15, 2001 7:56 am

ok <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>But really, that's correct. You just can't answer those questions. You just can't know the situation, and you can't live it. But if you've experienced a situation like my questions bring, then you'll never survive it. It's just horrible.<BR><BR>And Moonlight, that's correct. Euthanasia truly is a WAY different question. It was a mistake to include it; so forth I formed the question wrong.<BR><BR>My grandfather told me a story, when he was fighting in WWII, that he still has nightmares from.<BR><BR>He was walking a road, alone; 'inspecting', 'exploring' ( whatever ) the landscape. He was just about to return to the base ( don't know what 'korsu' is in english <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> ), when he saw a russian troop in a bush. The troop was already pointing a gun to my grandfather. As my grandfather had a gun wielded he, without thinking, shooted at the bush as fast as possible. The russian died and he survived. This is an example of kill or be killed situation. You wouldn't think a bit ISAIAH, you would just shoot. To protect yourself. But nobody said it wouldn't haunt you afterwards.<BR><BR>My grandfather almost cries every time he tells this story. He continued saying that he searched the mans pockets and found a photo of this mans family. He had never felt such agony and sadness. He killed a father of a large family.<BR><BR>But he had to. He didn't think a bit. The event was placed before him, but this goes to fate now. Is it fate? Is there fate?
User avatar
Klonkku
Ringbearer


 
Posts: 14929
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2001 11:30 pm
Location: Mostly harmless.
Top

Previous

Return to Philosophy: Councils of Manwë

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests