Game of Thrones

[Thor 'n' Oakenshield]

I agree on all these points - I think it's got to come down to either Jaime or Arya killing Cersei, and it would make the most sense for it to be Jaime.

Also, Brienne and Tormund deserve a happy ending!

[ihadababyitsaboy]

After watching the intro, one question I had was whether the Others would raise a host of long-dead Starks from out of the crypts? That would be a great way for the Night's King to rub salt in the wound during the (presumably) upcoming battle.

[Thor 'n' Oakenshield]

Exactly what I was thinking too! I've been watching a lot of theory videos that suggest that the Night King might be a Stark, and that something momentous could happen in the Crypts of Winterfell during the battle.

[ihadababyitsaboy]

Okay, after at least 6 people said they were going to the crypts because that were the "safest place," is there any doubt that the dead Starks will be raised to fight for the Dead?

[Thor 'n' Oakenshield]

Okay, after at least 6 people said they were going to the crypts because that were the "safest place," is there any doubt that the dead Starks will be raised to fight for the Dead?

No doubt about it. Maybe that scene from the trailer of Arya running through the hallways looking terrified is her being chased by one of the dead Starks? The fight in the crypts is gonna be creepy and thrilling.

[ihadababyitsaboy]

Yes! You're right, it will be a nasty bit of business down there. I think I even caught someone yell "They are already in the castle!" during the promise for episode 3, so I'd be shocked now if it doesn't happen.

Any predictions for the end result of the battle? I assume Total Victory for Team Living is out of the question. I don't think Total Defeat is in the offing either, though it may appear that is the case by the end of the episode.

I will predict that Night's King is alive by the end of the episode, and Bran is not. I'll follow up with a later list of who I'm predicting walks away alive, and who walks away... dead.

[ihadababyitsaboy]

Sigh... Double post.

[Thor 'n' Oakenshield]

Any predictions for the end result of the battle? I assume Total Victory for Team Living is out of the question. I don't think Total Defeat is in the offing either, though it may appear that is the case by the end of the episode.

I will predict that Night's King is alive by the end of the episode, and Bran is not. I'll follow up with a later list of who I'm predicting walks away alive, and who walks away... dead.

Let's see...well, firstly, I've seen a lot of theories going around that the Night King won't even be at the battle - that, while everyone is fighting at Winterfell, he'll ride on Viserion south to King's Landing and wipe out the entire city, raising an even greater army of dead, and fulfilling Dany's vision of the Iron Throne covered in snow, and Bran's vision of a dragon passing over King's Landing. I don't know if that's what will happen, but it's a good theory regardless.

For myself, though, I think I mostly agree with your assessment: I think Arya will use her new weapon to kill Viserion, which will eliminate that threat - it will take the Night King out of the sky, and he'll come by foot to the Godswood, where he'll easily murder Theon Greyjoy. There will be some fight between the Night King and Bran - obviously not physical, but some mental struggle between these two great forces of magic. At the end of that fight, I think Bran will die. He may or may not kill the Night King in the process, but I think he needs Jon's help to do that. But yeah, I can easily envision a scenario where Bran dies and the Night King survives, horrific as that might be.

[notlistening]

Hmmm, I hadn't thought about Arya's new weapon to kill the ice dragon. Good observation. She'd have to get very close, I doubt she could throw it that far. And on the crypt thing. Assuming they are mostly bones and not a few of them without heads (Ned and Robb) Can you raise a wight without a head? Is that cheating? But it would explain why Arya is so scared.

We have a Deathpool going here at work, of who will die and in what episode. And who will sit on the Iron Throne at the end. At first I thought it may be Tyrion, but am now leaning towards Sansa ruling Westeros.

[Otaku-sempai]

Hmmm, I hadn't thought about Arya's new weapon to kill the ice dragon. Good observation. She'd have to get very close, I doubt she could throw it that far.

Unless the weapon is launched using a war machine.

[Thor 'n' Oakenshield]

Hmmm, I hadn't thought about Arya's new weapon to kill the ice dragon. Good observation. She'd have to get very close, I doubt she could throw it that far.

Unless the weapon is launched using a war machine.

Exactly. Also, interesting that Bronn is on his way to Winterfell too, as he's the only other person (aside from the Night King) whose shot down a dragon.

[ihadababyitsaboy]

Thor 'n' Oakenshield wrote:

Let's see...well, firstly, I've seen a lot of theories going around that the Night King won't even be at the battle - that, while everyone is fighting at Winterfell, he'll ride on Viserion south to King's Landing and wipe out the entire city, raising an even greater army of dead, and fulfilling Dany's vision of the Iron Throne covered in snow, and Bran's vision of a dragon passing over King's Landing. I don't know if that's what will happen, but it's a good theory regardless.

Great theory! I could see a scenario where the good guys get a win or a draw in the battle at Winterfell, but the Night King does what you describe, so they wind up sandwiched between two undead armies. Theaybe falling back to retreat to the Iron Islands? After Bran gave his speech about how the Others want to erase humanity's memory, I did wonder if maybe Oldtown would be the Night King's target in lieu of King's Landing. Either would be a twist, and would allow for an outcome where a decent force of the heroes survive but are left in dire straights.

My Killed in Action list for this episode is (please forgive the spelling):

Baric Dondarrion
Brienne
Podrick
Grey Worm
Missendei
Theon (dies like a hero)
Tormund
Jorah (dies like an absolute boss)
Dolorous Ed
Davos

Every one of the above deaths will be a huge bummer, but this seems to be the list of folks who don't have any big threads to resolve anymore (ie, the Hound can't die until the Cleganebowl, can he?). And Gray Worm and Missendei just made future plans... which is usually the kiss in media!

[Thor 'n' Oakenshield]

Great list! I do think Jaime will die killing the Night King (assuming the Night King is at Winterfell), living up to his name. There has to be a reason Bran wants him in this battle. And I think he'll then die in Brienne's arms. So my list is:

Theon: will be murdered by the Night King while defending Bran.
Beric Dondarrion: will give his life for the Hound.
Podrick: will die heroically, maybe saving Brienne.
Grey Worm or Missandei: I don't think both will die, but definitely one of them. If the main battle is outside, then it will be Grey Worm, but if the Night King raises the dead Starks from their crypts in Winterfell, then Missandei's a goner.
Tormund: definitely dead.
Dolorous Edd: will die and be resurrected as a wight. It's been foreshadowed before.
Jorah Mormont: dead. His story is over.
Jaime: will die killing the Night King.
Bran: will die injuring or incapacitating the Night King (through magic) to the point where Jaime can finish him off.
Viserion the Wight-Dragon: will be shot out of the sky by Arya's dragonglass spear.
Davos: will die.

I think your theory about them retreating to the Iron Islands could be an interesting one - Yara is going there, and that seemed to be foreshadowing something. I hope Yara and Euron get an epic showdown before the end, and Yara's fleet totally crushes his. I can't wait for him to get killed.

[Thor 'n' Oakenshield]

So, obviously, MASSIVE SPOILERS AHEAD!


That was an incredible battle, very poorly lit. I guess the darkness was there so there would have to be less CGI, but it was very difficult to see anything at all, so I would have excused some half-baked special effects if I could have seen them at all. Other than that, this was truly a spectacle like nothing I've seen before - emotional, suspenseful, absolutely terrifying and nightmarish. The scene in the crypts -
What happened in the Godswood, of course, is the big event of the night: Arya defied all expectations and killed the Night King. You know, I'm happy for her - that was an incredible moment. I was afraid GOT might go traditional and have Jon Snow face down the Night King in an epic duel to the death, but no, they kept us on our toes and they used the surprise factor perfectly. Melisandre's appearance was great.
I was correct on only a few guesses: Theon did get murdered by the Night King while defending Bran - that scene was awesome and heartbreaking. Beric gave his life for the Hound and Arya. Edd was killed, Jorah was killed. Along with Melisandre and the highly-unexpected death of Lyanna Mormont ( ), they were the only deaths last night. I was expecting many more characters to get mowed down, so I can't tell now if I'm relieved that so many are alive, or frustrated that so many managed to survive. A little bit of both, I think.
I loved the Battle - it raises the bar for fantasy battles to come. The Amazon LOTR show will have to be something truly special if it wants to be the next GOT, because GOT is constantly outdoing itself, going one step further. I'm excited to see where the story goes from here - I think Arya's had her moment, she'll probably not do too much more in the story. Jaime's alive still, so he'll probably be the one to kill Cersei. I don't know, they've defeated the Army of the Dead - does the Golden Company really stand a chance against them? The only way I could see Cersei getting the upper hand now is if she (a) uses wildfire, and (b) somehow manipulates the already tense situation between Jon and Daenerys. Those two are clearly not getting along quite as well as they had been, and it seems that even Tyrion's loyalties to Daenerys are being tested by his affection for Sansa. Daenerys has now lost Jorah too, so she could find herself increasingly isolated - unless the victory at Winterfell increases her popularity with the northerners? We'll see.
I loved that episode, though! What a brilliant way to finish off that storyline! Not Today, Death - Not Today.

[ihadababyitsaboy]

Yes, what a great episode! I was on the edge of my seat through it all. I must have been the only person who didn't notice it being TOO darkly lit, but if anything it only helped magnify my appreciation for what it would have been like to be out there in a snowstorm at night fighting the Army of the Dead. I was way off on deaths (mainly, I was too pessimistic!) I'm okay with that though - the remaining characters are all great! And I suspect many of them will die in the next few episodes, where their deaths might have more room to breathe.

Arya is a boss. Loved the moment when she shanked the Night King. Totally well done.

That said...

I would have preferred Jon getting the death blow against the Night King. As awesome as it was for Arya to kill him, I feel like the Night King, if he has had a true individual foe among the Living, it was Jon. Jon was the head of the Night's Watch for a time, the Night King crossed paths with and taunted Jon during the battle at Hardhome, and Jon is the one most responsible for the coalition arrayed against the Night King at Winterfell. I think it would have been more cathartic for that triumph to be Jon's, though perhaps his true triumph is yet to come? Beric was brought back to life over and over again in order to save Arya... for what specific reason was Jon brought back? Or will that always be a loose thread?

But now, where do we go from here? I guess we need to know how many of Jon and Dany's troops are alive. Looked like a lot of them were dead by battle's end! I don't have any good guesses, aside from one strong suspicion:

Bron is going to kill one of the Lannister brothers, and that deed will compel the surviving brother to murder Cersei. Either of them would satisfy the "little brother" prophecy foretelling her end, and even now I don't think Jaime or Tyrion could bring themselves to kill Cersei without a major provocation. I think having Tyrion die and Jaime murder her would on the one hand be the most satisfying, I don't know if Jaime would kill her while she carried his own child. Tyrion though might not be so reluctant if Jaime gets assassinated.

But who knows? I would not be shocked if I was totally off base!

[Thor 'n' Oakenshield]

Yes, Arya is awesome - I can understand why a lot of people wanted Jon to kill the Night King, though. And, technically speaking, it's a little peculiar that dragon fire couldn't kill the Night King, but Valyrian steel could...but leaving aside little nitpicks like that, in general the episode is awesome, and I'm truly excited to see where we go from here. Cersei and the Golden Company are going to have to really step up their game, though, if they want to be any threat to a force that's just defeated the Army of the Dead and is still armed with two dragons.
Tyrion I find interesting: there have been lots of theories that he'll betray Daenerys before the end, and there does seem to be some rekindling of romantic tension between him and Sansa, which might divide his loyalties. Bronn could kill him, as you suspect. I think there will be a civil war of some sort, now. The armies from Winterfell will come to King's Landing and besiege the city, and Cersei will probably use wildfire to blow the entire city sky-high. Daenerys and Jon, I think, will have an epic falling-out and turn against one another, possibly even during that battle. One or both of them die before the end of the story. Meanwhile, while all that is going on, Cersei will face Jaime one last time - and I think Arya will also come after Cersei too. Yara will come in with her fleet and totally wreck Euron Greyjoy, and she'll probably kill him. But in the end, I presume Cersei will be defeated - but by the end of that battle, Daenerys or Jon, or both of them, will be dead. I'm calling it now, Sansa ends up on the Iron Throne.

I think, overall, the Night King seemed pretty easy to defeat. Cersei should be much more difficult. I don't think she'll go down without taking most of our favorite characters with her.

[Thor 'n' Oakenshield]

Well, last night was...both thrilling and hugely disappointing. I don't know where that Daenerys plot twist came from, but it didn't feel natural to me at all. When I thought she would become the Mad Queen, I didn't mean someone who literally burns an entire city of innocent people to the ground. As for Cersei and Jaime, I kind of liked their death - but I do feel like a lot of things were just left unresolved with their characters. All the stuff with Jaime and Brienne, for instance: it just...went nowhere. Yara didn't get to kill Euron, so I guess we'll probably not see her again. Arya and Jon are clearly going to have to kill Daenerys now. What happens with Tyrion now? Where is Bronn? Why did we build up all the stuff about Cersei's baby - only for it to go nowhere? Varys went out way too easily, for someone who has been such a cunning and clever manipulator and strategist. On top of everything that happened during the Battle of Winterfell, it feels like Season 8 has been diminishing in quality. I just want Arya to kill Daenerys at this point and Sansa to end up on the Iron Throne, and I'm sorry it's gonna end so disappointingly.

The cinematography was beautiful, though.

[ihadababyitsaboy]

I held off posting my thoughts on the penultimate episode because it took a while for the events to settle in my mind!

I completely agree with some of your points Thor 'n' Oakenshield, specifically as they relate to Jaime. In the final analysis, his character arc appears diminished assuming that he is now dead. All that work at redemption rendered moot as he chooses to die with Cersei.

I'm more forgiving for Daenerys. The series has admittedly established her expressed desire for the greater good, but it's also shown many examples of brutality in the past, and has been talked out of other violent acts by her advisors. So the roots of the Mad Queen were established, and this season has pushed her closer and closer to that breaking point, what with the continued deaths of her closest allies, the loss of 2/3rds of her dragons (children?), and the dawning realization that the people of Westeros will not cheer her the same way they appear inclined to embrace Jon. Add to that the realization that she now has an inferior claim to the throne vice Jon's true lineage, and the makings of the Mad Queen are right there. However... I felt that the setup for the "heel turn" in Episode 5 itself was missing one last poignant moment that made it seem 100% organic. She went nuclear at the moment her victory was assured. That just makes her seem more evil than pragmatic, which does her an injustice. Maybe they'll explain her state of mind tonight, so I'll hold final judgment until then!

As for characters dying at the hands of the wrong people, that to me is standard Martin. It's disappointing but I'm used to it now. Tywin should really have been killed by a Stark to be the most cathartic, Joffrey by any one of our main heroes, Cersei by Jaime or Tyrion, Roose Bolton by a hero, etc. I think it's just a hallmark of Game of Thrones at this point.

As for Varys... how many of those messages went out by Raven?

Final Episode Predictions-

No predictions anymore. I've been terrible at them. So instead, this is what I want to happen:

Tyrion survives. Davos survives. Arya fails at killing Daenerys, forcing Jon to do the deed, running his sword through her and echoing the original Azor Ahai as he reforges Lightbringer and rules what is left of Westeros.

Since I've written it, I assume none of that will happen, Jon and Tyrion get roasted, and Daenerys reigns as a bloody tyrant.

It is known.

[Thor 'n' Oakenshield]

Final Episode Predictions-

No predictions anymore. I've been terrible at them. So instead, this is what I want to happen:

Tyrion survives. Davos survives. Arya fails at killing Daenerys, forcing Jon to do the deed, running his sword through her and echoing the original Azor Ahai as he reforges Lightbringer and rules what is left of Westeros.

Since I've written it, I assume none of that will happen, Jon and Tyrion get roasted, and Daenerys reigns as a bloody tyrant.

It is known.

Yeah, I've been able to come to terms with a lot of the things that happened in "The Bells" now. I can understand a few things better, and I can appreciate a few of the things that I thought were mistakes at first. And, as for final predictions, well, I like yours - but I begin to wonder whether Arya should try to kill Daenerys or not. In the last episode, the Hound told her not to live her life based solely on vengeance, and killing Daenerys would be more vengeance. I think Arya could instead be the character who pushes Jon to do the deed himself. Their reunion in Episode 1 of this season was such a prominent point in the episode, and I begin to wonder if, in tonight's episode, we'll see another meeting between Jon and Arya, a farewell of sorts, where Arya convinces Jon to kill Daenerys. Maybe Arya will die too, but I hope not.

As for Tyrion, I hope and believe he'll survive, and he'll get a happy ending. Davos I think will survive, most of the supporting cast I think is going to make it out of this episode alive - I doubt there will be any battle now. The only supporting character I think might die here is maybe Grey Worm, since he's Dany's closest advisor at this point (she obviously doesn't trust Tyrion). Bronn I think will get his castle, finally. Drogon I imagine will either die or fly off somewhere, never to be seen again: I've seen a lot of theories that Drogon is a female, and that a big reveal at the end of the episode could be that Drogon laid eggs.

As for Jon, I think he'll kill Daenerys - but I don't know what would happen to him after that. I almost have the feeling that his Targaryen lineage has had very few consequences as of yet: he hasn't actually expressed any interest in taking the throne, and Varys' attempt to put him on the throne has failed (possibly. As you pointed out, some of his messages could have gotten out). But it would be shocking if Jon actually ended up on the Iron Throne.

Sansa is still my number one choice to rule Westeros when all this is over. Bran - I don't think he's going to do anything at all at this point.

[ihadababyitsaboy]

Thor 'n' Oakenshield wrote:

And, as for final predictions, well, I like yours - but I begin to wonder whether Arya should try to kill Daenerys or not. In the last episode, the Hound told her not to live her life based solely on vengeance, and killing Daenerys would be more vengeance.

I guess it depends for me on what (if any) symbolism there was with the horse she rode off on at the end of The Bells. I saw it and interpreted it as a nod to the pale horse of Death, one of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse. I took it upon first viewing as alluding to Arya's place in the world, and thus wrote her mission statement for being. Thus the attempted assassination in the finale.

But as you say, she could be done with the road she's been on, and the horse was just a horse, or meant something else entirely.

I suppose we'll know for sure in 7 hours!

[Thor 'n' Oakenshield]

I've been sorting out my thoughts, and I don't know how to feel about the finale. Mixed. I think "mixed" is the right word. There was a lot of good stuff, and the conclusions to Jon, Sansa and Arya's arcs were brilliant (loved that intercut scene of all three of them at the end), but there was just a lot of stuff that needed way more time to build up to, to explain and to explore in greater depth: Daenerys' madness, obviously, is one of the most glaring examples - she's just...there, and then she's gone. I found it really weird how nobody stopped to reminisce about her and her great achievements after her death, even while they were doing the same for Jaime Lannister, etc. I thought that Drogon taking her body away was beautiful imagery, and very mysterious, but her death felt too quick - like the show needed to get her out of the way and didn't want to stop to think about all the consequences. For instance, why exactly did Grey Worm keep Jon Snow and Tyrion alive after they conspired to kill his queen? It wasn't like anybody was stopping him from killing him right then and there. He had literally just foreshadowed that he had no mercy on his queen's enemies when he murdered the Lannister soldiers who had surrendered. But no, he decides to let Tyrion get up and make a speech for the assembled lords and ladies of Westeros? That felt bizarre, and Grey Worm ceased to be a character: he was just a plot device by the end, and even Missandei's death, which had seemed like a crucial moment in his story, had barely any significance except to get him out of the story as quickly as possible.

Then you've got Bran: this was something that I can appreciate, but I wish it had been set up a little more. Bran's entire storyline had been about defeating the Night King - not once did he suggest that he might have a purpose in the story after that: it was like the Night King's entire purpose was to throw us off the scent and make us think that Bran's arc would logically come to a conclusion with his defeat. But Bran's arc just...changed. All of a sudden the Night King is completely unimportant, and Bran is talking about how he always knew he would need to be King of Westeros. And then, in a moment that does nothing to highlight what a good king he might be, his first action is to allow Sansa Stark to secede. He appoints Bronn to be his Master of Coin, which sounds like a recipe for disaster (got to admit, though, I was so happy that Bronn got his castle). And then he tells his council that he's going to be off warging for a while. And, as someone else pointed out, why does he allow Jon to get banished after Grey Worm leaves? It's not like Grey Worm is going to show up again to make sure that the punishment has been carried out - though I imagine that Jon wouldn't want to be let off. But Bran does nothing to prove that he's a worthy King, at all: the only thing going for him is that "stories unite us".

The acting, the cinematography and music were all still fabulous - especially the music, so good. I was rather disappointed that Sansa got so few lines, and Arya didn't get to do anything important in the episode.

I just wish the season had been longer, and there had been more time to explore all of these things. The Night King and his motivations - unimportant. Jon's Targaryen bloodline was insignificant in the end - it allowed him to ride a dragon, and...that was it. All of that story about the secrets surrounding Jon Snow, all of it completely unnecessary. All of the story about Arya learning from the Faceless Men: all of it eventually unneeded, because she never used those skills again. Varys, once a skilled politician who would never allow himself to get caught, betrays Daenerys in the simplest way possible, without bothering to cover his tracks, and promptly gets burned alive. The ravens he sent out - are never mentioned again. Brienne and Jaime's relationship is slowly built up over multiple seasons, and ever so slowly grows into a true romance - only to be tossed out the window so Jaime can go back to King's Landing and die there, so the story can move on. The rush to finish the show is its greatest problem: this material deserved so much more than it got.

[rwhen]

Thor'n. I sort of feel the same. I am not sure if I feel "satisfied" with the ending that D & D wrote. I also do wonder how far they strayed from canon. Even though supposedly they did consult with GRRM through it all.

It felt too rushed...and I mean the whole last of the seasons. Just too much left to see and know and it was all crushed into three major story lines that were quickly wrapped in three episodes. Yeah, not feeling satisfied at this point.

I followed GoT's from first episode and waited excitedly for each season to start again. I was totally invested in the characters. I have also read all books to date and it all got interesting when the script went beyond canon.

Now, I have considered that maybe I am just feeling the sting of it all being over. But I have spoken to too many others that feel the same as I do.

I guess at this point there is only waiting for GRRM to finish/release the final books........if that ever happens and at this point, it looks doubtful.

[RoseMorninStar]

I may have a slightly different take than some. I think that might be because they left the book story behind several seasons ago. I can't really blame Dan & Dave because they never claimed to be writers of this story, they wanted to bring GRR Martin's story to life and Martin didn't give them the material to work with. They probably thought he would have at least had the Winds of Winter done by the time they got to it. How can we expect someone to finish someone else's magnum opus? Early on we started seeing big differences in characters and storylines left out and I knew that was going to affect the story in a big way. A domino effect.

I am HOPING that in the books there will be more about the island of the God's Eye and Children of the Forest and all kinds of mysteries that make Westeros what it is. As for the last season, yeah, it was too rushed, but there were huge clues- flat out proclamations- that Dany would use violence to get what she felt entitled to; "...and I will take what is mine, with fire and blood I will take it,” Dany tells the Dothraki, “Will you kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses?” There are at least 40 such foreshadowing statements of what she plans to do when she got to Westeros. What did she think the Dothraki would do? Quietly settle down & become farmers?

So.. I guess I just sort of 'gave up' on the book story and tried to see the show as it's own thing and I'm keeping my hopes up for the books. Eventually.

[Thor 'n' Oakenshield]

Yeah, I mean, it's a really tricky thing. As someone who hasn't really read the books (I've read a few chapters, but not a lot), I don't really find myself as bothered about the subject of whether or not it's a good adaptation of Martin's story - though I'm very interested to see how Martin's story ends now. What I'm really disappointed by is that the show ceased to be a good story at all - I mean, yes, it had a lot of very good standout moments, some of the best in the show's history. Arya's defeat of the Night King is still epic, despite how easy he proved to kill and how she didn't even get to use her face-changing skills. But, for instance, the Night King - if I remember correctly (and correct me if I'm wrong) that whole storyline, with the White Walkers and whatnot, is mostly original material from Benioff & Weiss: but even they couldn't figure out what exactly to do with it. The War for the Dawn became almost insignificant: the Night King had no impact on anybody, the White Walkers had no impact on anybody, only a handful of major characters actually died in the battle, and everybody promptly abandoned Winterfell and went south so they could get Cersei out of the story as quickly as possible. Yeah, I definitely think the main problem is that the show was moving so fast in the final season that nothing had time to make sense - it was as if, after years of carefully building up to this climax, something else came up in Benioff & Weiss' lives at the last moment, and they had to quickly patch together an easy ending for the show. It felt - abridged, at the end. Like it had been cut off prematurely, just as things were about to become absolutely amazing: suddenly, there's no time to deal with Jon's ancestry, or Arya's time with the Faceless Men, or the Night King's true motivations, or a better arc for Cersei and Jaime, or any purpose whatsoever for Euron Greyjoy. That's what really bothers me about it.

[rwhen]

I actually agree with both of you. I do think that D & D did the best with what they had...it was a bit late in the HBO series for stopping and waiting for GRRM and as we see that would have been fruitless anyway as this show was loved and watched/streamed by millions and millions.

Rose, I would love to see/read expansions on the CotF but also how it all began. More of the backstory. The show was really for my take all about Jon Snow...from episode one. Odd that he would just walk out of the Nights Watch to go away with Tormund and the memory of Ygritte. I also agree that the Dani death/revenge was foreshadowed tons. I was not surprised at her death. She was dead anyway for HOW she did what she did, killing all the innocents and babies. If Jon hadn't done it, Tyrion or Arya would have....at least that is my belief. But there were just too many unresolved plots. Bronn for one....revenge against Tyrion, and then part of the new council? Also the CerseiJamie ending was not part of the prophecy...what happened to that, what was the point of it at all......see? I just have questions and WAY more than the few I posted here.

Thor'n, I do think the three best episodes OF the last season were the best for cinematic reasons and tying up that part of the storyline. Had to be done, right? I too felt the Arya/Night King thing was maybe the best most satisfying of all. She was so badass, but again, like you wonder, why didn't she ever use her face changing abilities after the Frey revenge? I was dissatisfied with Jamie and Cersei being crushed by rocks underground from the damage Drogon was doing. The prophecy had everything going a different way, I suspected that Jamie would kill Cersie and die himself in the process, THAT would have been much more satisfying. And damnit SHE DESERVED A HORRIBLE DEATH. Not to die with her brother lover in her arms. *shrugs* Just too rushed.

Truth be told time and money wait for no man. HBO was relentless that this season was the last and it all had to be wrapped in the shortest season as well. Ultimately they held the purse strings so to speak. D & D did the best to work within those strict timelines. I think they are and will always be brilliant writers, adapters and show runners. I suspect they will be on a very long vacation after this. LOL

[RoseMorninStar]

Thor'n,

I don't disagree. Everything you've said is valid criticism. The only qualifier I'd throw in there is that Dan & Dave never intended to write this story. They did not claim to be writers but *adapters* of a great epic tale that was (and is), unfortunately, not finished. That is where the TV show begins to crumble, where the written material runs out.

George RR Martin has said that he does not do chapter outlines for his stories. He has a general idea of where he wants the story to go and he knows the key elements for how he wants it to end, but he allows his story to unfold in a more organic way as he writes. What that amounts to is that he wasn't quite sure EXACTLY how things were going to pan out. (For example, Jon & Arya were originally supposed to be love interests but as he wrote the story things played out differently). I would imagine this caused issues for Dan & Dave in what direction to take. I'm not trying to make excuses for a poorly executed season or two, (or three) but the material was just not there AND Dan & Dave had cut out so many things that they deemed unimportant or too hard/complicated to portray on film for the casual viewer that things were not in place to have the ending it should have had. A domino effect. Take out a couple of elements/characters and it's a cascading problem.

I agree, there are things they COULD have done to improve the ending. One of the things many people did not like was Dany's 'sudden' decent into madness. I would argue it was not so sudden as it was foreshadowed all along, especially having read the books, but I believe that was definitely planned all along and GRRM probably relishes the idea that people would not be expecting a beautiful young female 'heroine' to destroy a city (and dare say she would have 'liberated' the entire country) in pursuit of her 'entitlement'.

rwhen.. crossed posted. I agree with you too. The most unsatisfying thing for me was the Jamie/Cersei death. The only take-away (lesson?) I get from that is that addiction unfortunately doesn't always have a satisfying redemption story that makes sense. I don't know what GRRM's take will be, but from what I've read, that is what Dan & Dave were going for.. that Jamie had an unhealthy addiction to Cersei and in the end he embraced his addiction to his death. Cersei definitely deserved much worse. There were a lot of instances where the lore did not have pay-off in the show and that is what I am most fascinated by and was most disappointed in.

As for Bronn.. I guess he was supposed to have been a minor character but because he was a fan favorite they expanded his role and that is probably why there was not a satisfying end for him. The fan pandering really was a problem for the show's storyline, imo.

I *LOVED* Arya's badass killing of the Night King although a lot of people were unhappy with it.

[rwhen]

Rose? Why were people upset with Arya killing the Night King? That made total sense to me that she would do it and in such a badass way. Can't imagine that folks would not like that. Is isn't as if Bran was going to jump out of that wheelchair and save himself. *shrugs* I was sad at the passing of Theon in that scene....finally his redemption though. He deserved a "noble" death.

Still I am just hoping we get to read the last two books and see what the originator intended or what. It seems a mystery at this point.

Re: Jamie/Cersei....to me they didn't deserve (at least her) a Romeo/Juliet type ending. In each others arms, together to the end. His sad addition to her was pretty "off" to me from jump. I think I think about my brother and I and EWWWWWW scrub my brain right now. *shiver*

[Thor 'n' Oakenshield]

Rose? Why were people upset with Arya killing the Night King? That made total sense to me that she would do it and in such a badass way. Can't imagine that folks would not like that. Is isn't as if Bran was going to jump out of that wheelchair and save himself. *shrugs* I was sad at the passing of Theon in that scene....finally his redemption though. He deserved a "noble" death.

I think mostly people were angry that Jon wasn't the one who killed the Night King instead - there were a lot of people upset that Jon basically had nothing to do in the final season: his Targaryen lineage was unimportant, and he himself was unimportant, except to kill Daenerys (something that literally anyone could have done, be it Arya, Tyrion, or even Bran warging into her dragon). But as for me, personally, I thought Arya killing the Night King was awesome.

[rwhen]

Rose? Why were people upset with Arya killing the Night King? That made total sense to me that she would do it and in such a badass way. Can't imagine that folks would not like that. Is isn't as if Bran was going to jump out of that wheelchair and save himself. *shrugs* I was sad at the passing of Theon in that scene....finally his redemption though. He deserved a "noble" death.

I think mostly people were angry that Jon wasn't the one who killed the Night King instead - there were a lot of people upset that Jon basically had nothing to do in the final season: his Targaryen lineage was unimportant, and he himself was unimportant, except to kill Daenerys (something that literally anyone could have done, be it Arya, Tyrion, or even Bran warging into her dragon). But as for me, personally, I thought Arya killing the Night King was awesome.

Jon COULD have been everything. He was the rightful King of the Seven Kingdoms....even if he didn't want to be. Being the last Targaryen he could have also wed and continued the bloodline...not tainted with any madness. Other dragons could have come in to play. He could have resumed the rebuilding of the Nights Watch....he chose to walk away to live a life in the freezing cold with nothing but bitter memories to keep him alive. NOW maybe that is what Martin meant by the story having a bittersweet sending. But seems a character that had fate and destiny written all over him from jump would have had something else for his final future.....hell with the way they left it, they could have just killed him off again. Drogon toasting him to embers with a dead Dany in his arms would have been more satisfying to me.

Argh!!! By the old Gods and New that is why I love this story.

[Quimrill_Renctar]

So I might get slapped for being so ignorant.

I have never watched Game of Thrones for three reasons, and maybe you guys can tell me if they are valid or not.

1.) Saun Bean dies early. I love Saun Bean. I even love that he dies so often, but when he dies at the end of the first... episode? Season? There is just not enough of him to bring me into the fold.

2.) just straight up evil, mean, dastardly human nature cruelty that I don’t want to put my psyche through. There have only be a handful of books that I have read that I kinda wish I hadn’t. Hunger Games #3, The Golden Compas #3, later books of the Sword of Truth series. Just the kind of gratuitous violence and cruelty that makes you just shudder (even though its fiction) and kinda wish you could unsee. Again, hearsay about the tv show specifically.

3.) lots of sex/nudity? I have some friends who are all about it and then I say, “maybe I should give it a try” and they kinda back peddle and through up a sort of general content warning. A lot? A little? Gratuitous?

Now apparently the story line is epic! So that’s awesome. Lots of *Dun dun dun* moments I assume. Do characters tend to stay dead or are there lots of “oh snap! Did not see that coming, moments?”

Anyway, not trying to turn anybody off, just getting myself informed.