Not anticipating Star Wars: Episode II

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Postby Draracle » Thu Jul 12, 2001 8:21 pm

I have the utmost respect for the Star wars universe. The OT are without peer in the realm of Sci-fi. They are classics, full stop. BUT, TPM was a joke, pure and utter trash and it has tainted the name of Star wars. While I watching it I couldn't believe I was watching that crap unfold onscreen, I thought it must be some sort of bad joke, but alas, it was the actual movie. There are only two things that I can think of as to why it sucked sooooo bad:<BR><BR>1. Lucas doesn't give a damn any more and is only making these movies to put ILM and all his other business affiliates at the forefront in the market OR<BR><BR>2. He's old and senile and hasn't got the imagination or skill he once had.<BR><BR>Honestly, the screenplay for phantom menace was a joke, Lucas said it took him 4 years to write that, 4 YEARS!!!! (shake my head) and unfortunately everything I've seen and heard about Ep2 doesn't have the WOW!!! factor that LOTR has.<BR><BR>Artistically, I KNOW LOTR will trash all over Star wars prequels, but financially, Ep2 will most probably make more money. <BR><BR>Just one more thing, ever notice that those that say "Phantom menace rocked!!!!" are all under 15 years of age? Hmmmmm. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby Ringgamer » Thu Jul 12, 2001 10:15 pm

Ahem. I'm 26.<BR><BR>Phantom Menace is my favorite of the Star Wars movies, I loved it to pieces and I still do.<BR><BR>And I dare you to bash me for it or call my intelligence into question in the presence of this illustrious board-full of people who know me by my posts.
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Postby Telemachos » Thu Jul 12, 2001 11:24 pm

Bash! Bash!<BR><BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><BR><BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby soundandfury » Fri Jul 13, 2001 1:12 am

<b>Draracle</b>, you are truly deluded.<BR><BR>comments like:-<BR><BR>"...and unfortunately everything I've seen and heard about Ep2 doesn't have the WOW!!! factor that LOTR has..."<BR><BR><BR>Is that a fact, well everyone i know - and that's a heap of people - <BR>who have heard what's in EPII have said that it's the Star Wars movie they have been waiting 4. <BR><BR>4 you not to go WOW about the EPII storyline and elements makes me think your just some sad basher who creams his/her pants at the mere mention of anything LOTR and throws up on anything else. Let me guess Harry Potter a piece of **** too right. It's called paranoia, reject everything that you fear and could hurt you.<BR><BR><BR>'...Just one more thing, ever notice that those that say "Phantom menace rocked!!!!" are all under 15 years of age? Hmmmmm"<BR><BR><BR>Yeah what a shock, a film aimed at kids actually connecting with the intended market. This is exact reason WHY TPM made 431 million and sold 20 million vids domestic and the precise reason why FOTR will top out at 215 mill or so.<BR><BR><BR>"...Artistically, I KNOW LOTR will trash all over Star wars prequels.." <BR><BR><BR>Oh, you KNOW do you, well fair enough then. Oh mighty medium could you tell me how i will do in my finals next year - cause you can see these thing can't you.<BR><BR><BR>"...but financially, Ep2 will most probably make more money..."<BR><BR>At least you got one thing right.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
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Postby Draracle » Fri Jul 13, 2001 2:40 am

Well you didn't have to get mean, I was only expressing my opinion. Let me just put it this way, the media trashed it, the fans trashed it, the non-fans dismissed it, the only people that liked it were those fanatical fans that would have liked any movie with the name star wars on it. <BR><BR>It made over 400 mil because it was hyped as the most anticipated movie EVER! Hype like that will get you that kind of box office receipts.<BR><BR>As for the guy who said he thought the TPM was the best star wars movie, I WILL insult your intelligence, cause I believe it's firmly placed between an ash tray and a pickle jar.<BR><BR>Do you really believe that if no one ever heard of SW and TPM was the first movie out, do u really believe there would be a sequel? NO! It would have sunk!<BR><BR><BR>
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Postby Iavas_Saar » Fri Jul 13, 2001 4:05 am

Draracle, you are free to not like TPM, but it doesn't mean that it was fundamentally bad and that anyone who likes it is foolish. I am one of the people who thought the movie 'rocked', and I am 22. Also, TPM did not make 400M purely because of the hype. In that case, why were there still pretty good audiences seeing the film after several weeks of release? I don't know any of my friends who didn't go back to see the film a second time, and usually more. I saw it 7 times. For me, it is up there pretty close to the OT.<BR><BR>soundandfury, I actually agree with you on something: EpII does look exciting. But I am trying not to get too interested. I have a feeling that the hype will be much smaller for EpII, but that it will surprise us all, and will be right up there with ESB. In a way, TPM being a disappointment may help EpII in making a big triumphant return to SW domination.<BR>I think EpII will be darker and more serious than TPM, and that Lucas will have learned something from the bad reviews of TPM. One day, when all the prequels are made, I think people will look on TPM more kindly, because it will help convey the fact that the universe was originally at peace. It will make the progression to the dark ages of EpIV more pronounced. When we see the Jedi knights being wiped out in Ep.III, we will think back fondly to a time when things were easier and more light-hearted, a time where a mad alien stepping in dung was big news. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Sillymarillion » Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:03 am

You can always tell Star Wars fans are around when the term 'basher' starts getting thrown at people. <BR><BR>I personally don't think TPM 'rocked', though I certainly don't think it 'sucked', either. I have many problems with TPM, but I still don't see how anyone who was paying attention could deny that the story arc establised in TPM was very cleverly designed.
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Postby Shagrat() » Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:03 am

<i>The Phantom Menace</i> struck me as a very poor film. I suspect Lucas is not a terribly good director, though he obviously has a bit of an imagination on him. The first Star Wars film began as a rewrite of a Kurosawa film (<i>Hidden Fortress</i>), and while it was changed substantially, the final version had numerous direct lifts from Kurosawa. All well and good. Kurosawa was probably the greatest film director to have lived, and through plagiarizing him, Lucas created something rather good in its own right. <BR><BR>The masterful direction of <i>The Empire Strikes Back</i> was, of course, not carried out by Lucas himself, nor was the middling third film. Lucas' earlier efforts are promising, but he doesn't seem to have evolved as a director at all.<BR><BR>I inadvertently performed an interesting experiment. Being in China when the TPM first appeared, I realized that none of my Chinese friends had seen any of the Star Wars films. I therefore acquired the first three on VCD as well as (pirated) TPM. All four films appeared at the same time. I watched all four on successive days with a group of Chinese friends. All of them greatly enjoyed the first three, but none of them particularly enjoyed the new one. My wife got bored with TPM about halfway through (although she had loved the first three), and didn't bother watching the rest, and other Chinese friends didn't think much of it. The universal reaction was that it was far poorer than the other three.<BR><BR>Now, this "experiment" is hardly conclusive. All the subjects were university educated adults. But the "results" are highly suggestive. This convinced me that the disappointment that I and a number of European friends when watching TPM earlier was not just the letdown of finding a childhood fantasy less enthralling as adults.
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Postby Ringgamer » Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:26 pm

Not YOU Telemachos! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Iavas - very well said. Thank you for the calm head and reason. Not all Star Wars fans bash TPM, some of us (I bet a good many of us) like it and are happy it exists.<BR><BR>And yet again, I'll have to remind someone that I'm not a guy.
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Postby Whistler » Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:59 pm

All right, time for one of the resident geezers to speak.<BR><BR>I saw Star Wars, as an adult, when it was first released. It was probably the most incredible film experience of my life. The same was true of Empire and (to a lesser degree) ROTJ. But by the end of ROTJ the franchise was already on the road to the "kiddiefication" which TPM embodies. <BR><BR>Being (probably) a good deal older than most of you, I never experienced the Star Wars movies as a child. So I never really took them as seriously as those of you who first saw them at a more impressionable age. They have always been (though in a good way) a rather silly crazy-quilt of incompatible philosophies. I have always loved them, but I have never taken them seriously.<BR><BR>For this reason I was not disappointed in TPM. Like most of you (Ringgamer excepted!) I found it overly childish and too effects-laden at the expense of characterization and plot development. But I expected nothing else. I wanted to see monsters and spaceships and battles, and I saw them. Good enough.<BR><BR>I tend to agree with Samuel L. Jackson's assessment of the negative attitude many take toward TPM. He says that people who are disappointed in TPM tend to have forgotten that they are not the kids they were when they first experienced Star Wars universe. There is a difference between TPM and its predecessors, but that difference is not as great as the difference between who we are now, and who we were then. We can't blame Lucas because we grew up.<BR><BR>All the more reason to be thankful that only two years will pass between FOTR and ROTK. We won't see the last movie with a distorted view of what we saw in the first.<BR>
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Postby AncalagonTheBlack » Fri Jul 13, 2001 10:19 pm

Did I hear a call for the resident geezers?<BR><BR><i>hobble... hobble... wheeeeeeeeze</i><BR><BR>I liked The Phantom Menace too. More than Jedi, but not nearly as much as A New Hope or Empire Strikes Back.<BR><BR>True, I didn't like JarJar (poorly animated and hard to understand), the potty humor, the pod race announcer, Jake Lloyd, midi-chlorians, and the lack of chemistry between R2-D2 and 3PO.<BR><BR>But I did like the rest of the special effects, the art direction, Darth Maul, Watto, Natalie Portman, the pod race, the intertwining of the four story threads at the end, and the <i>idea</i> of Liam Neeson and Samuel L. Jackson cast as Jedis. Most of all it made me feel that being a Jedi was really <i>cool</i> in a ten-year-old kind of way.<BR><BR>I felt that I got my money's worth. And last week, while Mrs. Black was out late, I even popped the kid's copy of the video into the VCR and watched it for an hour. Fun stuff when you're in the mood for a popcorn flick.
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Postby soundandfury » Fri Jul 13, 2001 11:03 pm

<b>Draracle</b>- i wasn't being mean.<BR><BR>The thing is your logic is flawed.<BR><BR>"...the non-fans dismissed it..."<BR><BR>Really, i remember clearly reading that exit polls from average movie goers rated it as very/excellent 9 of of 1o times. Further, the video sold 20 mill domestic - were they all hardcore fans - no - it was LITTLE KIDS who bought the videos cause TPM was intended for little kids to love.<BR><BR>Again, most non-fans rated it as a fun 2hr popcorn film - fights, speaceships and action, ya knows a Saturday night movie.<BR><BR>"...It made over 400 mil because it was hyped as the most anticipated movie EVER! Hype like that will get you that kind of box office receipts..."<BR><BR>Er, wrong. Lets see:-<BR><BR>JPII: Lost World: massive hype - died at 231 mill.<BR><BR>Godzilla: Massive, MASSIVE hype - only just made 100 mil.<BR><BR>Pear Harbor; Massive hype, Biggest studio promo ever - will only just crawl past 200 mil.<BR><BR>I'm afraid the hype for TPM would have only generated about 200 mill total. The other 231 mill came from repeat viewings from KIDS seeing it over and over again. <BR><BR>TPM would have ended it's run at about 255 265 mill if it hadn't connected with the average adult person and kids.<BR><BR>Movies that are HATED don't do 400 mil - that's about 96 mil people who saw it.<BR><BR>Who cares if a bunch of twenty and thirty something SW fans thought it sucked cause their no longer 8 years old. They don't count basically cause they won't go to see a movie over and over like a bunch of 7 year olds will. Lucas knows this, he wanted a NEW generation of fans and guess what he got em.<BR><BR>For the record i thought PM was a fun popcorn pic, worse than ESB-ANH better than ROTJ. I only saw it once at the cinema and once on video. I wasn't dissapointed in it casue i didn't base my existence on it being the second coming. <BR><BR>EPII does look not too bad. He is some Anakin S dialogue just after he mauls a family of tusken raiders. This is legit.<BR><BR>"...Not just the men...the women and children too. They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals... I HATE them!" <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
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Postby AncalagonTheBlack » Fri Jul 13, 2001 11:04 pm

Another heresy.<BR><BR>I liked Titanic too.<BR><BR>Kate Winslow naked, and a guy bouncing off the propeller. What's not to like?<BR><BR>Of course, I saw it for free at the big, luxurious theater on the Paramount Studios lot the night it broke the $100 million mark at the box office, and afterwards James Cameron spoke about the making of the film. So maybe that had something to do with it..<BR><BR>But what I took home with me was Kate and the propellor.<BR><BR>You guys need to learn how to enjoy life more.
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Postby Aerin » Sun Jul 15, 2001 6:22 pm

Of course, if I mentioned "Star Trek" right now (no offense to any Trekkies), y'all would band together in defense of SW. You know?
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Postby Ringgamer » Sun Jul 15, 2001 8:54 pm

LOL Aerin! Actually, my fellow Gamers and I were discussing that very thing last night...<BR><BR>Well said, Whistler, as always. I can easily overlook what flaws there are because I grew up wanting, more than anything, to know what real Jedi were like. Not this Luke wannabe kid, REAL Jedi back in the glory days. And TPM gave them to me - in the form of two incredible men (who I would not kick out of bed for eating crackers) who embody everything the Jedi Order and the Force are there for. Truth, justice, and the...er, galactic way. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> And they know how to sling a lightsaber, too! I could not ask for better role models, heroes, or mentors. They embody control, power, humility, and peace. Our own little world could use a couple like them.<BR><BR>Everything else just falls by the wayside. I can stand Jar jar as a setup to some of Qui-Gon's best one-liners. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby dudalb » Mon Jul 16, 2001 10:26 am

I liked Titanic too...although it is not a great film. A lot of the bashing is because it is not a Sci fi genre film, and a lot of Sci fans resent a non genre film being the number one Box office hit of all time.<BR>I did not hate TPM, but was very dissapointed in it. What irked me most was not Jar Jar but the Pod Race...Lucas made a huge mistake in ripping off shot for shot the best loved action scene of all time ...The chariot race in Ben Hur. Lucas had borrowed before, but in the pod race he went into full scale theft. And it was not one fourth as good as the original..<BR>My main concern is that the story of the firs trilogy is basically a tragedy:The fall of Anakin Skywalker. There is no way it can have a happy ending. And I am concerned if Lucas will have the guts to do it as a tragedy.
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Postby Xhen » Mon Jul 16, 2001 10:52 am

I liked Titanic a lot and am always amused by the bashing that some people seem to take pride in giving it. James Cameron did something that was incredibly difficult to do...he successfully transported most of his audience onto a 1912 luxury liner and then sunk it out from under them. A wonderful film experience.<BR><BR>I think the whole LOTR vs. Star Wars vs. Titanic vs. Harry Potter thing is ridiculous anyway. There seems to be a mentality among some that you have to bash another film that you feel may be threatening "your" movie. It's as if there is some kind of Big Film Competition and Hootenany going on where your film can only win if another loses. I saw the same thing with <i>Shakespeare In Love</i> and <i>Saving Private Ryan</i> where the SPR crowd started bashing Shakespeare for having the audacity to win the Oscar. I loved both films and winning or losing the Oscar didn't change my opinion of either of them. Why should it?<BR><BR>Films aren't some kind of Zero Sum game where one film has to be dragged down for another to succeed. The more great films the better. Personally I hope HP, and LOTR, and SW Episode 2 are all wonderfully entertaining films and huge hits.
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Postby Iavas_Saar » Mon Jul 16, 2001 11:04 am

I disliked Shakespeare in Love long before it stole Saving Private Ryans oscar! I think the only reason that SPR didn't win was because the acadamy thought 'Hey, Spielberg already won an oscar for a war epic, surely we can't let the same thing happen again?'<BR>Unfortunately this also means PJ won't win best picture 3 years in a row for each film in the trilogy..
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Postby ~Elrohir~ » Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:06 pm

Naked Kate and the propeller? <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Dang...I just finished laughing...
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Postby Aerin » Mon Jul 16, 2001 8:42 pm

Well said, Xhen! I totally agree.<BR><BR>Okay, now I've got this <b>really</b> weird mental image of naked Kate bouncing off the propellor... <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby AsGoot » Tue Jul 17, 2001 8:39 am

After watching TPM a couple of times on home video (that I, 30+ years old person, own) I don't feel that it was as good as the first time I saw it in Leicester Square Odeon the first possible time in Europe (bragging again?). Why?<BR><BR>TPM was great and exciting every time the two freakin' incredible jedis got going. When they didn't it was in trouble. Especially Tatooine, where after 1/2 hour of riveting action everything just grinds to a halt. A long, exposition filled, strangely unemotional and detached halt. And Kenobi stays in the ship the whole time? And Jake "I'm the worst child actor ever" Lloyd does not help.<BR><BR>Still, good entertainment, although now FF button comes in handy (where's the "hop to the favorite scene" DVD version?). However, the first time, my better half was shocked to tears when Quite Gone Gin bit the dust... so TPM had something going for it emotionally as well I guess?<BR><BR>Talking about better halves, or whatever (ahem)... naked Kate... or full-dressed, she should be my wife! Or actually my second, as I already have one, if they both don't mind.
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Postby Gungnir » Wed Jul 18, 2001 1:45 am

I am another 30-something (slightly closer to 40 than 30) who was a Star Wars fan the first time round. I liked TPM, as said above, it was better than ROTJ, but not as good as the two others. I own the video (but my 5 year old Daughter watches it more than I) and will be first in the line when the TPM DVD is released in October. I am eagerly awaiting ep II which, from early indications, looks to be somewhat darker.<BR><BR>And guess what? I love LotR too! I hope both the movies are massive successes and, more importantly, I want them both to be great films. I certainly have no wish for one to fail at the expense of the other.<BR><BR>As a final note, I am also a big Star Trek fan (OK, not Voyager). The early word about the new "Star Trek: Enterprise" series sounds very interesting but I am dubious about it because the people behind it are the same ones responsible for Voyager.<BR><BR>In addition, I'm hoping for good things from the Spider Man movie and Darren Aronofsky's Batman, if it ever gets made.<BR><BR>Why should it be impossible to like more than one Sci-Fi/Fantasy 'brand'?
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Postby Túor » Wed Jul 18, 2001 1:58 am

Hmmm, seem to be very different ideas here about the whole thing. Will have to watch out so as not to offend anybody.
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Postby Gungnir » Wed Jul 18, 2001 2:38 am

<b>Will have to watch out so as not to offend anybody.</b><BR><BR>Why change the habits of a lifetime? <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR>
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Postby Túor » Wed Jul 18, 2001 5:27 am

What?? ME offend anybody??? You must be kidding <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif"border=0>
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Postby Aerin » Wed Jul 18, 2001 8:29 pm

In this Star Wars community I belong to I'm known as the Jedi Peacekeeper. Should I reprise that role here as well? The Peacekeeper Bard...<BR><BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby Mr.bunny » Wed Jul 18, 2001 11:00 pm

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents about the PM movie. I just finished watching it for the second time (incidentally), and I think that one thing to sticks out like a sore thumb (other than of course JJB ) is the poor dialogue. The obvious plot developemts had to be stated by the characters, which I found annoying. I also disliked the overabundance of CGI characters.<BR><BR>There's no secret that TPM was primarily marketed for kids. The problem with that is that it's hard to gain critical praise. I'd much rather see LOTR be an adult-oriented movie that wins critical praise then a kid-oriented movie that tops at the box office.
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Postby Túor » Thu Jul 19, 2001 3:45 am

Mr. Bunny is absolutely right. Damn the market strategies and it's only done for the money movies.
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