Just speculation for the Legolas fans...

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Postby Donisiliel » Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:40 pm

When I was partway through reading the trilogy, I wondered if any more of the main characters might possibly get killed before the end. I came to the conclusion that Legolas was the only one who could die. After all, the four hobbits all just had to get home safe and sound, Aragorn was going to be king, Boromir was already dead, and Gandalf had "died," too. I don't know what I figured would happen to Gimli, but I decided that Legolas was the one who would probably get killed. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-crying.gif"border=0> Thankfully, my ideas were wrong. <BR><BR>~Doni
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Postby Aurelin » Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:22 pm

Hehee, since I read the book after seeing FOTR, I knee he would not die. Why - because after my first viewing of the movie, I went straight into a bookshop to check if he didn't.<BR><BR>I totally agree - I am REALLY glad JRR did not include the crawling thing. I hope to think he recognised that it seemed really off with what was previously written about the Elf and Elves in general. I just can't see him ever doing that.<BR><BR><em>Hmm...we could have Legolas opperate on himself ala Paul Bettany in "Master and Commander." That would be interesting and unconventional. </em> LOL!<BR><BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-rolleyes.gif"border=0> Aurelin <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-rolleyes.gif"border=0>
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Postby !bob! » Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:38 am

I totally agree. Maybe he could limp? But on all fours, with his bum in the air, is not very graceful for an Elf. And especially a Prince.<BR>Do you think he could have been King of Mirkwood if he hadn't sailed away?<BR>Bob.
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Postby Donisiliel » Thu May 06, 2004 6:55 pm

Aurelin wrote:Hehee, since I read the book after seeing FOTR, I knee he would not die. Why - because after my first viewing of the movie, I went straight into a bookshop to check if he didn't.


:) You sound like my mother. My family read LotR as a family. After reading about Éowyn, my mom was worried that Aragorn was falling in love with her. She was so worried that he might end up with Éowyn instead of Arwen that she looked up the entry for Aragorn in our encyclopedia of Middle-earth to see how everything turned out in the end.

Bob, personally, I don't think Legolas would have become the king of Mirkwood for two reasons. Since he and his kin are Elves, Thranduil would have to be killed in order for Legolas to ascend to the throne. I don't foresee this happening, although it is certainly possible. Second, in my mind, I see Legolas as being a younger son of several of Thranduil's children. This is all personal conjecture, since Tolkien never tells us any specific details about Legolas's family. Part of my reason for believing that Legolas has older brothers is that if he were the heir to the throne, I don't know that Thranduil would have sent him off with the Fellowship. I don't think that he would have wanted to risk his eldest son and heir. That said, perhaps Thranduil would have sent the eldest son because as the sole representative of the Elves, he should be an Elf of high honour. Well, that's just my take on the matter. I know this subject has been discussed else on TORC. What opinions do the rest of you have?

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Postby Aurelin » Fri May 07, 2004 4:33 pm

Donisiliel wrote:After reading about Éowyn, my mom was worried that Aragorn was falling in love with her. She was so worried that he might end up with Éowyn instead of Arwen that she looked up the entry for Aragorn in our encyclopedia of Middle-earth to see how everything turned out in the end.

When usually reading a book, I never can wait to read it properly, but I usually read the end as well, which spoils things sometimes of course but I just can't help it.
Speaking off-topic of the Eowyn-Aragorn thing, in the drafts JRR did have Aragorn at first falling for her and Galadriel forsaw it, telling him to look for a flower behind a throne or something. At first Eowyn was supposed tp get killed to and Aragorn would never marry. Arwen entered only after the Ring was already destroyed in the drafts, if I remember it correctly.

Donisiliel wrote:Second, in my mind, I see Legolas as being a younger son of several of Thranduil's children. This is all personal conjecture, since Tolkien never tells us any specific details about Legolas's family. Part of my reason for believing that Legolas has older brothers is that if he were the heir to the throne, I don't know that Thranduil would have sent him off with the Fellowship. I don't think that he would have wanted to risk his eldest son and heir. That said, perhaps Thranduil would have sent the eldest son because as the sole representative of the Elves, he should be an Elf of high honour. Well, that's just my take on the matter. I know this subject has been discussed else on TORC. What opinions do the rest of you have?

I think I am in the younger son camp. At first he was sent only as a messenger to tell of the escape of Gollum and he was chosen for the Fellowship by probably Gandalf and Elrond with maybe some counsel from other Elves. Also he is called a son of Thranduil only maybe once or twice in the book, if he was the oldest Prince, I think there would have been more emphasis on the title.
AND even though it would have been not likely that Thranduil should get killed in the 4th Age, if he was his heir, I don't think he would have let him go off and establish a colony in Ithilien.

Ok, I have gotten really off-topic here.


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Postby Donisiliel » Fri May 07, 2004 10:01 pm

Aurelin, where did you find the info about early draughts of LotR? I know there are a million books about the history of Middle-earth. Thanks!

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Postby Aurelin » Sun May 09, 2004 8:39 am

All of the LOTR ones are in The History of Middle-earth volume 6, 7, 8 and 9. The others are of the stories in Sil written pre- and post-LOTR.
If you are looking for info of Legolas, then in the 6th, there is nothing since he was not part of the Fellowship at first.
AND a very interesting little bit about him is in HoMe 2 where a Legolas Greenleaf of Gondolin is part of the group who escapes and his night-sight is a big help leading the people over the dark plain.
The origin of the name Legolas is in HoMe 1 in the Appendix under Tari-Laisi where there is a VERY interesting note saying that "Laigolas=green-leaf, becoming archaic because of the final form becoming "laib", gave Legolast=Keen-sight. But perhaps both were his names, as the Gnomes(Noldor) delighted to give two similar-sounding names of dissimilar meaning, as Laigolas Legolast or Turin Turambar. Legolas the ordinary form is a confusion of the two."
Since there is nothing further explaining the name Legolas, I think that JRR did not change this conception.


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Postby Donisiliel » Sun May 09, 2004 5:48 pm

Thank you, Aurelin.

Legolas was not part of the Fellowship in the first drafts? How dreadful! :'( I've read about the Legolas Greenleaf of Gondolin. I don't believe that he was the same Legolas Thranduilion of Mirkwood, though. The origins of the name are interesting. You seem to be very well read about Middle-earth. :D I've read half of the Sil and also own Morgoth's Ring and Unfinished Tales. I have read parts of them, but I've not had the time to read them from cover to cover yet.

I'd best be off since I feel a swoon overtaking me!

~Doni
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Postby Aurelin » Tue May 11, 2004 4:24 pm

No, he wasn't. At first there was no Elf or Dwarf, later I think there was Glorfindel and maybe someone else before JRR decided on Legolas (or Galdor as was his first name).
No, I believe too, that the Gondolin and Mirkwood Legolas's are two different Elves, it was just reusage of a name. Like there was in the Lost Tales also an Elf named Gimli.

You seem to be very well read about Middle-earth

Thank you! I have read quite a few books but so far most only once, so it is hard to remember all the stuff but at least I know where to look if there is a need. I have read the Sil, UT, HoMe volumes 1-9, currently starting Morgoth's Ring.
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Postby Donisiliel » Tue May 11, 2004 6:30 pm

Galdor? Oh horrors! Galdor is one of the names guessed for "Figwit." I don't like Figwit. The real Galdor is fine, though. (He was the messenger from Cirdan of the Grey Havens to the Council of Elrond.) Huh, Gimli does not sound like a very Elvish name. I'll have to go look him up in my copy of UT. There are a lot of famous people in LotR that take their names from less-well-know people in earlier histories of Middle-earth, so it doesn't surprise me that names are reused.

Morgoth's Ring is a very good book. I haven't read the entire thing yet, but what I have read is excellent. I've read the section about the customs of the Eldar, as well as other random parts.

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Postby Aurelin » Wed May 12, 2004 12:49 pm

The Elf Gimli is not in the UT but HoMe II.

Morgoth's Ring seemed like the most informative of the books for me too, I have paged through it and I know that it has really good material on the whole "immortalness" and Orcs origins and so on. I did start to read it but then I started Martin's Clash of Kings as well and I found that it was engaging enough that I couldn't read both at the same time. So I am reading the Clash... now and then Morgoth's Ring.

One thing that I started to wonder after I heard about the whole head-butting stuff - could it not be that at least one of the bumps we see on Legolas could be the one Sala gave him?


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Postby Donisiliel » Wed May 12, 2004 6:48 pm

Last night I had a horrible time sleeping because of my cold. I sat up in bed for an hour reading Morgoth's Ring. I started at the debate of Finrod and Andreth. It was very good. :D

One thing that I started to wonder after I heard about the whole head-butting stuff - could it not be that at least one of the bumps we see on Legolas could be the one Sala gave him?


I suppose it's possible. Which scene/s of Legolas are you refering to? I've noticed that after the fight with the Uruk-Hai at Amon Hen and during the battle of Helm's Deep, Legolas has some dirt smudged on his face, but I've never noticed that he actually has any bumps.

I watched the special materials on the TTT EE in which Orlando talks about the head butting. It sounds pretty brutal to me. I would not have responded well if someone came up to me and gave me a hard bonk on the head. Then again, I have a very serious sense of humour. I need to lighten up a bit. :roll:

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Postby Aurelin » Fri May 14, 2004 10:39 am

I've noticed that after the fight with the Uruk-Hai at Amon Hen and during the battle of Helm's Deep, Legolas has some dirt smudged on his face, but I've never noticed that he actually has any bumps.

I might have used the wrong word, maybe bump is too much but I think there is a slight splodge of red along with the dirt. The East Gate of Moria scenes I had in mind too besides the one you mentioned. I mean that it could have been any of them or of course none.






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Postby Donisiliel » Fri May 14, 2004 9:09 pm

From what Orlando said on the DVD, it sounds like Sala hit him on the forehead. So, if the marks you're talking about are there, it's possible that one could be real. I think they probably aren't, because it would have to be quite a coincidence that Orlando would have a bruise on the same day that they would need Legolas to have one. Remember that Orli said that the makeup people had to cover up his bruise before filming.

~Doni

Hey, this is post number 555 for me. Is that a lucky number? :P
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Postby Aurelin » Mon May 17, 2004 4:31 pm

I had forgotten about that qoute of the make-up people covering it up. I guess those were then still all-make-up smudges on his face.

555, lovely number :) . I would say lucky but just based on my own feelings. I usually use the number when I want to say there were so many of something.







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Postby 1eowynfanshieldmaiden » Mon May 17, 2004 6:00 pm

I would cry so hard if he died. I would be devestated, mabey ya, serious injury would have been ok, it would ahve added more emotion and tear, mabey to much considering its already an emtional movie. I can just see it, pierced in the chest with a knife and the sholder with a arrow, he lays on Pellenor Field, bleeding, dying. He dies a slow painful death. Never would he get to see the mines and the woods with Gimli or sail to the unying lands, or see Aragorn crowend king, or find out if Frodo and Sam made it. It would be very sad when I think of it like that. :cry: :cry:
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Postby Aurelin » Tue May 18, 2004 1:02 pm

:cry: :cry: eowyn, you almost made me cry when I imagined it.
That would have been really awful.

Speaking of Elves dieing, I always wondered what happened to all the Elves in Helm's Deep since we see none but Legolas charge out in the morning. But the book Art and Warfare of LOTR that is great in explaining things movie-wise, it says they all died. I can understand that they had to get rid of all them again but I find it very hard to believe that none of them lived through it.





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Postby 1eowynfanshieldmaiden » Tue May 18, 2004 4:31 pm

I always wondered what happened to all the Elves in Helm's Deep since we see none but Legolas charge out in the morning. But the book Art and Warfare of LOTR that is great in explaining things movie-wise, it says they all died. I can understand that they had to get rid of all them again but I find it very hard to believe that none of them lived through it.


I've wondered that to, I mean wouldn't it have been more realistic if afew made it out? I relize it shows the sacrifice they made but hey, let a few live. :roll:
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Postby Donisiliel » Tue May 18, 2004 7:02 pm

I wish that the movie would have shown some sort of burial for the fallen Elves at Helm's Deep. It makes me sad to think of their bodies lying mingled with those of the dead orcs. :cry: They especially should have shown some sort of honor to Haldir. PJ takes a wonderful character from the books who by right should be living a happy life in Valinor now and kills him without giving him a proper mourning! I'm sure that at least Legolas and Aragorn would have mourned him; I wish we could have seen them pay their respects to Haldir and his fallen companions.

~Doni

Let me clarify that I'm not really terribly upset with Peter Jackson on this; I understand that from time constraints he cannot possibly show everything we'd like to see. But that won't keep me from wishing for things all the same. :idea: But hey, I could write my own scene that I'd like to see! That would be fun.
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Postby 1eowynfanshieldmaiden » Wed May 19, 2004 6:03 pm

Seeing the burial of the elves would have been cool, but would have taken up to much time. :roll:
It makes me sad to think of their bodies lying mingled with those of the dead orcs

O gosh, thats sad and wrong :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Postby Donisiliel » Wed May 19, 2004 6:32 pm

I imagine that someone did bury the Elves. In the book TTT, the surviving Rohirrim buried their fallen kin in barrows, so I'm sure that their "movie counterparts" would have done something for the Elves as well.

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Postby Aurelin » Thu May 20, 2004 12:09 am

I totally agree, it would have been beautiful to have a burial for the fallen Elves and Rohirrim or at least show Theoden give the order like he does in the books. In a way not showing and clarifying the end of the Elves kind of treats them like nothing much important, emphasizing the fact that they were there because of all the filming circumstances (I don't know if it has been said by PJ or someone but I think that the main reason we have Elves in HD was that they had shot it with Arwen there but when they changed Arwen's character, they could not cut out all the Elves from all the shots and so they were still there).




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Postby agardnerswife » Thu May 20, 2004 9:49 am

I would have been upset if Legolas had been hurt although I did think he was too superhero-ish and a :P small cut or wound would have made him appear vulnerable, hmmm, a vulnerable Legolas, yes, I could handle that. What I really would have given alot to see is Legolas interact with a female. I don't care which one, ok maybe not a dwarf female, but an extended dialogue with Arwen, or just showing him in the background talking with another female elf, would have been nice. I would settle for Peter Jackson's daughter, as a little Rohirrm girl handing him a cup of something and him kneeling down to thank her. Just something!
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Postby Aurelin » Thu May 20, 2004 11:21 am

agardnerswife, I so very much agree. I am so sad that the Arwen-Legolas farewell scene was not even in EE (the one on the National Geographic show). It would have been nice but I guess with not habving this kind of interaction PJ went with the original book emphasis on men. In this it would have been lovely if he had changed that.









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Postby 1eowynfanshieldmaiden » Thu May 20, 2004 4:56 pm

I have always wanted to see Legolas interatact wit some character, mabey Eowyn, it would have been cool.
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Postby NimrodelSong » Thu May 20, 2004 8:48 pm

Donisiliel wrote:I wish that the movie would have shown some sort of burial for the fallen Elves at Helm's Deep. It makes me sad to think of their bodies lying mingled with those of the dead orcs. :cry: They especially should have shown some sort of honor to Haldir. PJ takes a wonderful character from the books who by right should be living a happy life in Valinor now and kills him without giving him a proper mourning! I'm sure that at least Legolas and Aragorn would have mourned him; I wish we could have seen them pay their respects to Haldir and his fallen companions.

~Doni


Wow, Doni, unfortunately, I hadn't given that any thought before, but you're right. It would've been nice if Pete could've had some sort of memorium for the elves and esp. for Haldir - (after all, he put the elves at HD and they really weren't even supposed to be there!) aarrgh! Yes, that would've been a nice touch, and it wouldn't have had to be a long scene. I find this very appealing, being such an elf lover and all... :roll: :)

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Re: Just speculation for the Legolas fans...

Postby Sassyfriend » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:31 pm

I acttually would not have minded a scene of him getting hurt although i am a big fan and friend of his. I mean everyone in the fellowship got hurt so why not him? :angel:
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Re: Just speculation for the Legolas fans...

Postby Therien Greenleaf » Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:14 pm

ok, don't get me wrong - i AM a fangirl. a completely insane fangirl. but still, i have some sense. It would make him seem more real if he got wounded in battle. Not anything serious, you understand, but larger than a nosebleed like in DOS. Legolas must seem kind of distant and shallow for those who only watch the movies. Plus, more scenes with my Elf-boy are always good... :-D :-D :-D :D
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