Lord of the Rings and the Bible

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Lord of the Rings and the Bible

Postby Dorian-from-the-Sea » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:08 am

I would like to make this discussion post for different biblical themes central to LOTR that make the film powerful.
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Postby NimrodelSong » Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:11 am

Hi Dorian -

Of course I don't pretend to know all that Tolkien was thinking when he wrote LotR. However, I've been able to see many parallels/symbolism, if you will. Just the fact that he was a christian is nearly enough for me. Although I believe that there were other things influencing his work, I am able to see some spiritual parallels. Gandalf as one of the Maiar (whom I see as sort of archangels), Frodo as a figure of Christ, carrying our sins to Golgotha's hill and making the ultimate sacrifice, Aragorn portraying a sort of Christ in that while he was on earth he was more or less in disguise; in other words, most people didn't know his true identity; the elves portraying "angelic spirits" (as Orlando Bloom called them); etc., etc.

I don't mean to say that these things are definitely the way Tolkien meant them. But this is what I SEE. :)

If this the type of feedback you were looking for?

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Postby ringmaiden » Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:36 pm

You could also say Arwen was a Christ-like figure. She sacrifices her immortality for a mortal death for a 'lesser' being, but one that she loves unconditionally. Christ, too, gave up his immortality by taking on mortal flesh and dying for lesser beings, but ones that he also loves unconditionally.

This sacrifice of Christ's was one the I never thought of until I read the LOTR.

Also, Aragorn's return as king - The prophecy was that the true king would bring not only victory but healing. This Aragorn does and fulfills the prophecy proving to the people of Minas Tirith that he indeed is the true king. Christ, too, brings us not only victory over death and sin, but healing of our minds and hearts, and sometimes our bodies too. This, unfortunately wasn't in the movie - but it should have been if PJ had done the houses of healing sequence better.
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The White Rider

Postby Dorian-from-the-Sea » Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:06 am

True, now here is one thing that I haven't really ever heard anyone speak of. Now at the battle of Helm's Deep, this is hinted stronger in the film than the book, when Gandalf appears, nottice his white robes and his white horse.
At the top of a hill, when the battle is most bleak. As he rides down, the Rohirrim (the church) behind him. The enemy thinks that it can destroy them and closes up before Gandalf at the foot of the hill. But the blinding glory of God comes down and blinds the enemy. The book says here, "...and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness."
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Response

Postby Dorian-from-the-Sea » Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:07 am

Yes, I'm sorry, that was the kind of response that I sought for.
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Postby LadyCoralie » Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:40 pm

Yes I believe there is a Christian background to LOTR. Tolkien talks about it in his memoirs. Sometimes you see various quotes from Tolkien on the front page talking about this subject. I found an article online that deals with this subject and will paste an excerpt below.
One of the most famous questions scholars have asked about Beowulf is whether it's a Christian poem; it seems to have been written by a Christian, but it deals with a pagan society. Likewise, there is no mention of God or even religion in Middle Earth. Yet Tolkien considered the book a reflection of his own faith. "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision," wrote Tolkien in 1953. "The religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism." There are many examples of this, though readers frequently overlook them. A close examination of the appendices (there are six, plus indexes and maps) reveals a detail that goes unmentioned in the main narrative: The nine companions who comprise "the fellowship of the ring" begin their fateful mission on December 25 (Christmas), and their story climaxes exactly three months later, on March 25 (in the traditional English calendar, the date of the Fall of Man, the Annunciation, and the Crucifixion). Too much can be read into all this — Tolkien insisted that his book was not an allegory — but it does carry at least a limited meaning. Tom Shippey, Tolkien's finest interpreter, calls it "a kind of signature, a personal mark of piety."

The Lord of the Rings, then, is not an explicitly Christian work, but it is entirely consistent with Christianity. This is an essential element for Tolkien. As Joseph Pearce points out in his literary biography of Tolkien, "[his] Catholicism was not an opinion to which one subscribed but a reality to which one submitted." There is nothing in what he wrote that contradicts Christian belief. Middle Earth is un-Christian only in the sense that everything coming before Christ is un-Christian.

Tolkien does more than strive to avoid contradiction, however; he filled The Lord of the Rings with patchy foreshadowings of a Christian truth that had not yet revealed itself in fullness. Early on, when Frodo says he wishes someone would kill Gollum, a pitiful beast who haunts Tolkien's heroes, Gandalf objects. "Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it," he says. "My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end." Indeed Gollum does, and he contributes to a medley of themes about knowledge, salvation, and eternity.

The Lord of the Rings may be read and enjoyed without reference to any theology whatsoever; it is a wonderful and well-told story. The movie is more or less faithful to it, but only gestures toward the deeper questions. It succeeds mainly as an exciting tale. Yet a full appreciation of Tolkien's accomplishment requires some sense of what lies behind the book.

The proclamation of any novel as the greatest of the 20th century is as much a burden as an accolade; it sets up the book for all kinds of sniping, lots of it undeserved. Yet it is impossible to deny the extraordinary fondness millions of ordinary readers have shown for The Lord of the Rings over the last five decades, and very difficult to disagree with the simple judgment of W. H. Auden: "If someone dislikes it, I shall never trust their literary judgment about anything again."


National Review

Cheers all! :)
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Postby IrisBrandybuck » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:34 am

There is a book you should check out called "Finding God in the Lord of the Rings" by Kurt D. Bruner and Jim Ware (There's also a Narnia version.) I have it and it was really insightful.
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Postby MithLuin » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:18 am

Peter Kreeft's "Philosophy of Tolkien" is also worth reading.

Common details focussed on are:
    The role of Providence in the story - Bilbo was meant to find the Ring
    Lembas and miruvor being types of the Eucharist (ie, spiritual food and drink)
    The Christ-like roles of Gandalf, Aragorn and Frodo - Gandalf dies and returns from the dead in glory, Aragorn is the rightful king returning to lead the Kingdom into a kind of Pax Romana, and Frodo gives his own life to save the world. Kreeft uses the priest-prophet-king model to explain this, but others have certainly pointed it out.
    The use of prayers - calling on Elbereth in times of need
    The theme that the small and weak are actually strong (certainly more Christian than pagan!)
    The importance of accepting death rather than trying to cheat it
    The persistence of Hope, in even the darkest circumstances

There are many, many others that can be focused on, but that's enough to start with.

Would you like this thread to be put into the Movies forum? That's where discussion of themes of the movies usually occurs. This forum is more for swooning for the actors ;).
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Postby NimrodelSong » Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:37 am

Iris, I read the book. It was great!!

Dorian wrote:here is one thing that I haven't really ever heard anyone speak of. Now at the battle of Helm's Deep, this is hinted stronger in the film than the book, when Gandalf appears, notice his white robes and his white horse.
At the top of a hill, when the battle is most bleak. As he rides down, the Rohirrim (the church) behind him. The enemy thinks that it can destroy them and closes up before Gandalf at the foot of the hill. But the blinding glory of God comes down and blinds the enemy. The book says here, "...and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness."


I forgot this part in the story, Dorian. When I saw it in the movie it reminded me a bit of this passage in the Bible:
"Now I saw Heaven opened and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He himself will rule them with a rod of iron." - Revelation 19:11-15b.

I also remember watching some of the DVD extras for The Two Towers, and Pete referred to this scene with Gandalf as "being of almost biblical proportions." :)

You also made some very good points that I didn't think of, Mith. :)

~Nim~
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Re: The White Rider

Postby ringmaiden » Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:37 pm

Dorian-from-the-Sea wrote:True, now here is one thing that I haven't really ever heard anyone speak of. Now at the battle of Helm's Deep, this is hinted stronger in the film than the book, when Gandalf appears, nottice his white robes and his white horse.
At the top of a hill, when the battle is most bleak. As he rides down, the Rohirrim (the church) behind him. The enemy thinks that it can destroy them and closes up before Gandalf at the foot of the hill. But the blinding glory of God comes down and blinds the enemy. The book says here, "...and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness."


That is exactly right. I don't know if you are familiar with the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola. In them one is taken through the Bible to meditate on various passages. As one goes through the Bible various themes are also introduced for one to meditate on. One is "The Call of the Eternal King." One is to consider a noble earthly king who calls into his service all those willing to fight for home and country. Then one is to transfer this image to Christ the King, who, of course, we should be willing to follow 100 times more than the most noble earthly king. The meditation goes with Christ saying: "It is my will to conquer the whole world and all my enemies, and thus to enter into the glory of my Father. Therefore, whoever wishes to join me in this enterprise must be willing to labor with me, that by following me in suffering, he may follow in glory."

These exercises are to be done with a spiritual director. As I was going through these and came to this meditation, I told my director that this meditation was great because I had the audio and video to go with it! He couldn't understand what I was talking about. I showed him that very scene from Two Towers. It's perfect. It is also one of my favorite scenes from all of the movies for that very reason.
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Yes Iris..

Postby Dorian-from-the-Sea » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:08 am

Yes Iris I actually have read that book before. A very excellent and rewarding read. Though now forgive me for I attempts at pushing this topic; who here is a Christian? I am, but I am only a bit curious to see if the rest of you are.
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Postby IrisBrandybuck » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:28 am

I am too.
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Postby NimrodelSong » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:17 am

Me too! :)

~Nim~
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Now then...

Postby Dorian-from-the-Sea » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:55 pm

Now then, here is a thought: We see how powerful the biblical impact is on the books of Tolkien. Why don't we use that knowledge to reach our fellow LOTR fans? What I am saying is we have here this tool, the message board, now lets go out there and lovingly bring Christ to those who don't yet know him. And do it through the love and courage and faith, all of which comprise true love, that we have learned.
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Postby ringmaiden » Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:46 pm

I do believe that is happening already. Tolkien's vision of Christianity woven through his books is subtle and beautiful. It is never "hit you on the head' or Christ in a lion's suit like C.S. Lewis. It is gentle but persuasive.

I have used Tolkien to bring the message of salvation, gently, subtly, to many people. Everyone likes peace and beauty. Everyone is interested in forgiveness and redemption. Those themes are what drives most of the timeless literature of the ages, interwoven with love, battles, courage, sacrifice, and sorrow. That's life. We all know that. We live it in some way everyday. We like stories that mirror our own struggles in some way and ones that can show us a higher reason for living rather than making a buck and stepping on the next person in our way.

I don't think one can read or watch Lord of the Rings without being lifted up in some way.
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Postby Turin Turambar » Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:10 pm

I totally agree with you, ringmaiden. If you get into the beginning of the Silm, some stuff sticks out to me.

Eru Illuvitar-God
Valar-chief angels, cherubim
Melkor-Lucifer
Maiar-heavenly host
etc. etc.
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very true

Postby Dorian-from-the-Sea » Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:35 pm

and that is one thing that makes LOTR so timeless. The fact that he implants true Christian virtues of which many of us have now forgotten. True Love, friendship, courage, forgiveness, admonition and many more.
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Postby ringmaiden » Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:48 pm

Turin Turambar, I love the similarities of the angels and the elves. I particularly like the thought of the Garden of Eden. I image that paradise was a state of being more than a place. Now, it is true, that the Bible places Eden between the Tigris and Euphrates, but I think that if Adam and Eve wanted to travel (before the fall) and were able to, then wherever they went on earth, it still would be paradise. They would still be in harmony with nature and everyplace they went would be beautiful. What I am saying is that paradise consisted of perfect union with God, not being in a particular longitude and latitude. Therefore we, as fallen beings, can never "find" the Garden of Eden - not as a physical place on earth. Just my thoughts.

Now, with that said, when I look at the elves, they seem to me to be very much like the angels. I think that Tolkien did not write them as non-fallen. But if one just takes the Lord of the Rings books and the movies as they are without all the background story, the elves do indeed seem to be like the angels - non-fallen. Where they live is...well... paradise. Frodo talks about it in the book. He says that while living with them he had peace and just wanted to exist day after day in the beauty. It was enough. I would think that is what it was like in the Garden of Eden. It was plenty and enough just to exist day after day in the beauty of God.
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Postby IrisBrandybuck » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:23 am

I don't know that I would go as far to call the elves the "angels" only because, like men, dwarves and hobbits, they had (have?) free will and could be both good and bad, which is something fleshed out in the Silmarillion and other books. I'd need someone who has read more of the Sil than I have to be sure I have this straight, but Melkor was a "fallen angel" and the other hosts with him before he separated himself from Eru would have been the other angels. Elves might be one step closer to God (Eru) than the average person...but then so were hobbits...note how peaceful and quiet the Shire always was, with conflicts being at a minimum and minor comparatively to the rest of the world.

While Lord of the Rings did end up being allegorical, Tolkien didn't really set out specifically to write things that way (as Lewis did with Narnia). As a Christian, the stuff would have crept in anyhow, and you are all right to say that it is an excellent tool to introduce Christianity to people, something many Christian leaders have been encouraging. Tolkien, as I understand it, set out to write a myth, a myth that leads people to the truth.

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well...

Postby Dorian-from-the-Sea » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:01 am

Ringmaiden, the only problem with that is how did God cast out Adam and Eve after the fall if the entire earth was paradise, or eden? And the Angel of the Lord guard them from coming back in with a flaming sword. There obviously had to be a border.
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Postby MithLuin » Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:50 am

To answer that question, you have to figure out how much of that story hinges on meaning, and how much on reality.

When I tell people that Lord of the Rings is one of the truest stories I've read...I don't mean that it really happened ;). I mean that it contains a lot of truth about life.

No story in the Bible is absent meaning, but I do think that the Creation story and the Garden of Eden focus a lot more on the meaning than the reality. Meaning...the banishment from the Garden speaks of the separation from God and the loss of Paradise. The physical act makes that truth real and physical. But...that doesn't mean it happened precisely that way. I don't think we'll find an angel with a flaming sword if we search in that area today, but I also don't think the angel quit his job. So, there is an angel....but....that doesn't mean that ringmaiden's interpretation doesn't fit the story.

Think of it this way - Jesus told parables to teach. Why is it difficult to suppose that God told us parables about Creation in the Bible?
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Postby ringmaiden » Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:57 am

Ok, now that I think of it, I was really comparing the elves to humans before the fall. (Though to be fair, angels DO have free will, that's why Lucifer was able to choose not to serve).

Again, these are my own private theological mind-wanderings. I don't think that knowing the actual location of the Garden of Eden is necessary for salvation, so I am feeling free here to go beyond conventional thought on the subject.

This thought originally came to me while preparing for labor - meaning giving birth. I thought that it was so unfair that animals gave birth without having to take classes - and without a lot of distress. That led me to thinking about Eve and her punishment, and then Adam, too. Did you ever notice that man, meaning mankind not men, is unable to live in harmony with nature? We try and we try, but we end up messing up our environment time and time again. Even when we try with good intentions, purposely trying to preserve and protect the environment, in the long run, we mess it up.

Adam and Eve did not have that problem. They did live in harmony with nature and with God. When they disobeyed God, they were cast out of paradise. Now, couldn't that mean that they were cast out of this harmony with all of creation? We do seem to be strangers on earth compared with the animals, who all seem to know just what to eat, where and how to live, and how to raise their young. We don't know what to eat, how to raise our children, or how to live with nature. We just don't know. We can't find out either. We manipulate nature, we explore nature, much, much more than any animal, yet we are in the dark. That angel with the fiery sword stands guard over that knowledge, -that place -, and we cannot get to it, no matter what we do. And we do long for it with all our hearts. But it eludes our every effort.

If, before the fall, Adam and Eve had wandered around, would they have come to the garden borders beyond which existed the wild and cruel world that we inhabit? I just have the feeling that all of creation, at that time, was in harmony with God and that there wasn't any cruel, harsh place on earth. Doesn't St. Paul talk about all of creation groaning while it waits to be renewed? It seems to me that he is saying that creation itself was also affected by the fall of Adam and Eve, which means that it was different before the fall. When Christ returns, he will return bringing a new heaven and a new earth, making all things new. This is what creation itself is longing for.

That is also why there can never be an "Indiana Jones and the Garden of Eden." He's not going to be able to go on a journey that will bring him face to face with the fiery sword angel and paradise.

Bringing this back to Lord of the Rings -
I have not read the Silmarillion, so forgive me. I am just thinking of LOTR both book and movie. The elves themselves seem to be comparable to mankind before the fall. Because of this, they live in paradise. Rivendell and Lothlorien are both places of peace and beauty and are not places where there is much of a quest for technology. "New and Improved!" aren't' quite the tag words going around. Mankind, because of our longing to go back to paradise, is very interested in technology which is a vain attempt to outwit that angel with the fiery sword. We may make things 'new and improved' or 'bigger and better', but are they really? Are we any closer to happiness? Or are we just chasing our tails?

Because they are not a fallen race, no matter where the elves would choose to make their homes would become a paradise. They would live in harmony with nature and with each other. That's what we were supposed to be. That's what God created us for.

The hobbits also to some degree can be put in that non-fallen category. But since Tolkien's' work is not allegorical, things are not going to fit perfectly. Yes, Tolkien set out to write a myth that leads one to the truth. So I feel free to muse over this. And I also feel free to share this with you and other people. You may disagree with what I am saying, but it's one more way to get our minds on God.
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Very True

Postby Dorian-from-the-Sea » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:43 pm

Very good thought. And oh so true as man attempts to find his utmost pleasure in things, and finds that his attempts are but utter vanity. And in his pursuit for fulfillment, one thing will not satisfy. So his desire is forged into greed and sin. And sin tempts men to do the most abominable things; that he in is meditation would never conceive of. As we see what happened to Smeagol. He wanted the ring. Then he lusted after it.. And his lust overcame him to the point where he killed his friend Deagol.
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Postby Erumahtar » Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:55 pm

Hi everyone. :)

I have read all posts in this thread some days before and finally decided to write here.

From your posts I understood that there are some icons (images) of Christ in the characters such as Frodo representing Him as the carrier of our sins, Aragorn being the rightful king of the throne of Gondor who didn't sit on the throne till his enemies were defeated provides us with the image of Christ being the rightful king of Isael but it wasn't His time yet to sit on that throne. Arwen, the Elf who abandoned her moral love because she loved an immortal, see Christ the very God abandoning His glory and becoming man because He loved us so much. Gandalf on his arrival at Deep Helm bring sin our mind the second coming of the Lord.

Now all these were said by you, but I wanted to put them together. And there are many other things that are similar with our faith (christianity), but I wanted to focus on Christ-like images.

There is also an image that come to my mind when I was reading your posts here. It reminds us of Ecclesia, that beatiful girl whom the King loves so much and who loves Him so much. It's obvious that Arwen is the character who made me see this. She was beatiful and we know that Aragorn fell in love with her. We also know that they married only after the war of the Ring was over and Aragorn had returned in his throne. Can you see now?

I thank God for Tolkien and for working through this man because He put so many christian images in his books and we can use them to approach peolpe and speak to them about the Lord.

In the Lord,
Eru(mahtar) :wink:
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Re: Lord of the Rings and the Bible

Postby rojersequaria » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:26 pm

Thanks for posting....
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