TTT, Book 3, Chapter 5 - The White Rider

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TTT, Book 3, Chapter 5 - The White Rider

Postby Notta Hobbit » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:42 pm

Summary

Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli find the cord that Pippin cut, and the knife. Aragorn correctly interprets them (after Legolas fails). They follow the hobbits' route into the edges of Fangorn. Gimli is nervous but is reassured by Legolas. Their friendship is beginning. They reach Treebeard's Hill and spot an old man behind them. Tempted to shoot him, they refrain, and then find that he is magically preventing them. He knows them, but they don't recognize him until he reveals himself as Mithrandir/Gandalf (although he had forgotten that name). He says the "tide has turned." He describes the mental fight to keep the Eye from discovering Frodo. The three travelers catch him up on the tribulations of the Fellowship. He, in turn, gives his understanding of the larger sphere of events, how Sauron is launching his offensive too soon, and Saruman's cross-purposes are also interfering. He also informs them of the Ents and their decision, and how Merry and Pippin brought that about. He advises them to go to the assistance of Rohan.

Gandalf then recounts his battle with the Balrog, finding the Endless Stair and culminating on Zirakzigil. He destroyed the enemy but nearly – or actually – died himself, and was "sent back" to finish his task. Carried to Lothlorien by Gwaihir, he recovered and set out again. When storytime is over, Gandalf calls Shadowfax and two other horses and they ride to Rohan. To their left/behind they see smoke rising from Isengard.

Questions

1. What is Gandalf doing in Fangorn?
2. Gandalf seems to think that the Ents' attack upon Saruman is an essential part of the plan to defeat Sauron. If that is so, why didn't the Council consider it in Rivendell?
3. How does Gandalf know about the hobbits and the Entmoot?
4. Why is the Ring now beyond Gandalf's reach?
5. What does Gandalf mean when he speaks to Shadowfax of being "a long way from Rivendell," when the horse has actually come from Rohan?
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 5 - The White Rider

Postby Old_Begonia » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:26 am

I will respond to Q 5 first, as it is easiest and I am not at a computer keyboard.
Shadowfax and Gandalf last parted company in Rivendell. (Council of Elrond, in Gandalf's account to the Ringbearer as to why he broke tryst and did not come as he promised.)
"And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen."

There is something profound about standing AT sea level.
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 5 - The White Rider

Postby Notta Hobbit » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:32 pm

I'm going to answer #4 myself, as I think I know the reason. I think what Gandalf means is that he can't support Frodo directly any more because he would be far too noticeable in the Black Lands. I don't suppose he's saying that he has no power there--but if he tried to exercise his power, it would have less chance of coming to a good end as far as the Ring was concerned.

What do you think?
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 5 - The White Rider

Postby siddharth » Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:32 am

Old Begonia is correct about the Q.5. I think I can guess the answer to Q.2. As Treebeard said, there were too few of the ents left. Perhaps, most of the people present at the council didn't even know about the existence of Ents. I'm not sure ... just guessing. Correct me if you know the answer.
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 5 - The White Rider

Postby Morwenna » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:25 am

1 and 3 seem to go together. I believe that Gandalf sees that he's most needed in Rohan, and probably has had advice from Galadriel (remember her mirror?) as to where the various members of the Fellowship are. Fangorn is on the way from Lothlorien to Rohan, and once there Gandalf meets Treebeard himself; I believe that's there in the book, for isn't that why Treebeard looks funny when the hobbits tell him Gandalf perished in Moria? And he probably has a bit of discussion with him later as well, maybe when Quickbeam has charge of the hobbits. He might very well have been (briefly) present at the moot.
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 5 - The White Rider

Postby Old_Begonia » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:09 pm

Question #1 - He spent time in Lorien, gave and took council. He traveled 'by strange roads' after leaving Lorien. He knew that Frodo had gone, presumably alone, to Mordor and that the rest of the Fellowship remained west of Anduin. He is aware that Merry and Pippin are with Treebeard. Much is inferred as to whence this information comes. Some things he learns from the Three Hunters. For instance, that Sam has gone with Frodo. But he also 'sees' that the Ring is beyond their reach.
Gandalf is in Fangorn seeking Aragorn, and his companions. He is mentor to Aragorn, who is one more thread in the 'great matter' that he is weaving. Destroying Sauron (and the Ring), restoring the line of Isildur to the throne, ushering in the Age of Man, these goals are intermingled. Aragorn was charged by Boromir to go to the Minas Tirith and save his people, and he gave his word to Éomer, to go to return the loaned horses to Edoras. Gandalf tells Aragorn that the quest for the hobbits is done: they are safe. He, Aragorn, is needed. The light of Andúril must shine in battle.
"And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen."

There is something profound about standing AT sea level.
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 5 - The White Rider

Postby Notta Hobbit » Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:16 pm

OB, who are the Three Hunters? I don't remember that term.
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 5 - The White Rider

Postby Old_Begonia » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:35 pm

Aragorn's last line in Chapter One of Two Towers: "Forth the Three Hunters!" Always thought that was hella cheesy, but there you go. Just now wondering what the other Inklings thought of that line...
"And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen."

There is something profound about standing AT sea level.
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 5 - The White Rider

Postby fattylumpkin » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:53 pm

Old_Begonia wrote:Aragorn's last line in Chapter One of Two Towers: "Forth the Three Hunters!" Always thought that was hella cheesy, but there you go. Just now wondering what the other Inklings thought of that line...


I dont think these lines cheesy, cheesy is the " hunt some orcs" line from the movie (cheesy but fun?). I hear this line as a rallying cry, a redifining of the three that are left from eight, after one dreadfull afternoon! the last paragraph is so well writen, one has a sense of speed and determination, and grimness, "Dusk came. They passed away, grey shadows in a stony land."

The first chapters of the TTs seem to be so much about finding and choosing the right path both figuratively and metaphorically for so many if not all the characters. Aragorns distress at his choices I find especially moving.
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 5 - The White Rider

Postby fattylumpkin » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:04 pm

sorry! I meant also to say that I think the moment in this Chapter TWR, that is very important for Aragorn, is when Gandalf tells him to not regret his choices at Emyn Muil, Here and when the three meet Eomer, is for me when Stider becomes Aragorn.
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 5 - The White Rider

Postby fattylumpkin » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:26 am

this is in response to the question of Gandalfs death :
As I understand it Gandalf does die, and if one keeps this in mind when reading the rest of the book, it gives so many of Gandalf's actions and lines an extra depth , especially ones about dying, think about the scene with Gandalf and Denethor in the house of the dead. I am no Tolkien scholar (I am so often amazed by the knowledge and the insights of so many torcers) but as I understand it (I saw an interview of Tolkien where he says this) LOTRs is very much about death.
The scene in Fangorn when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are reunited with a resurected Gandalf seems to me a very important story moment as Gandalf
recharges them:
"And this I also say: you are our captain and our banner...... The White Rider" (aragorn)

remotivates and reassures: the messages from Galadriel, and Gandalfs telling them that Pippen and Merry are safe and that they did right to follow them, made the right choices,

and last, he shows the clear way forward: "The light of Anduril must now be uncovered in the battle for which it has so long waited"

"we meet again. at the turn of the tide. a great storm is coming, but the tide has turned."

such a great chapter! we go into Fangorn forest lost frustrated and footsore, and come out on our way to the right path! and riding too!
sorry for the length and hopefully these thoughts are clear!
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 5 - The White Rider

Postby Arvegil » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:42 pm

2. Gandalf seems to think that the Ents' attack upon Saruman is an essential part of the plan to defeat Sauron. If that is so, why didn't the Council consider it in Rivendell?

Because, while pissed-off Ents are one of the scariest forces in Middle-Earth, it had been a long time since they had acted (the last time, I believe, would have been either the War of the Last Alliance or Beren's attack on the Dwarfs attempting to take the Silmaril). Also, Gandalf the WHite seems to have a much bigger sense of where all the pieces on the board are than Gandalf the Grey could hope to have.
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