TTT, Book 3, Chapter 10 - The Voice of Saruman

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TTT, Book 3, Chapter 10 - The Voice of Saruman

Postby Notta Hobbit » Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:00 pm

Summary

Gandalf accosts Saruman in his tower, with the rest of the group hanging on behind him. He has asked the Ents to make themselves scarce. Orthanc (supposed to be 500 feet high) shows only tiny signs of Ent damage. Gandalf, Aragorn, Theoden, Eomer, and Gimli climb to the tower landing, but Merry and Pippin stay on the first step. Gandalf summons Saruman, but at first Wormtongue answers. Upon further demand, Saruman comes to the railing and tries to enchant Theoden with his voice, but Gimli breaks the spell. Saruman tries again and this time Eomer sees through it. Once again he tries, and this time Theoden himself refuses him. Saruman rages at him and then tries to ensnare Gandalf, who laughs at him, then offers to let him leave free as long as Saruman surrenders his staff and the key to Orthanc. Saruman turns away in a huff but is commanded back by Gandalf's own enchantment. Gandalf reveals that he is now the head of the Council and casts Saruman out from it, breaking his staff.

Wormtongue tosses a glass ball down at Gandalf, but it misses and rolls away. Pippin retrieves it and finds it fascinating. After only a moment, Gandalf quickly takes it from him and hides it. The group leave the tower. At the gate, Treebeard approaches and Gandalf introduces Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn to him. Gandalf extracts a promise from Treebeard to watch that Saruman does not leave Isengard, and recommends flooding the place repeatedly.

Questions

1. That's a mighty tall tower! How would Saruman have built it?
2. Why are Merry and Pippin left on the bottom step?
3. Did Saruman make the right choice for himself about Gandalf's offer?
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 10 - The Voice of Saruman

Postby Morwenna » Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:17 pm

Orthanc predated Saruman's habitation there. It went back to Numenorean times, I think. (I'd have to look it up and I'm not at home.) Saruman got leave of the king in Gondor to live there. (Or was it a steward?)

(I'm great on geography but not so good on dates.)
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 10 - The Voice of Saruman

Postby Arvegil » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:10 am

3. Did Saruman make the right choice for himself about Gandalf's offer?

Of course not. However, a more interesting question is whether he felt that he was incapable of accepting Gandalf's offer.

I am reminded of a broadly similar offer Eonwe made to Sauron at the end of the War of Wrath, and his response.
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 10 - The Voice of Saruman

Postby Notta Hobbit » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:24 pm

Please say more! Why would Saruman feel incapable of accepting the offer? I've never gotten much feeling of self-knowledge from Saruman.

The reason I asked whether Saruman should have accepted is that I started wondering if he couldn't have just gone off to a far corner of Middle Earth and built himself up another power base. For him, wouldn't that have been a better outcome?
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 10 - The Voice of Saruman

Postby Old_Begonia » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:22 am

Saruman staked all on finding the Ring. Having failed, he had no plan B. The coming loss of the Palantír will reveal him as the rival to and thus make him an enemy of the Enemy, whom until now he had conceived of as his dupe. I think Saruman actually belived, somewhere in his deep dark soul, that once in possession of the Ring, he would right wrongs and do good for Middle Earth. Saruman, Istari and Maiar though he be, was betrayed by the lust for the Ring in like measure to his personal power. No, he cannot see any other path. The loss of the possibility of possessing the Ring is a loss too great. Like an addict cut off cold turkey from his dope, Saruman can think of nothing else.
"And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen."

There is something profound about standing AT sea level.
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 10 - The Voice of Saruman

Postby Morwenna » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:00 am

Still, for all his talk to Gandalf about higher purpose, he had no trouble getting revenge on him by ruining the Shire! Doesn't sound very "high" to me! (And he had already started that by buying pipeweed and subverting people like Lotho.)
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 10 - The Voice of Saruman

Postby Arvegil » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:18 pm

Notta Hobbit wrote:Please say more! Why would Saruman feel incapable of accepting the offer? I've never gotten much feeling of self-knowledge from Saruman.

The reason I asked whether Saruman should have accepted is that I started wondering if he couldn't have just gone off to a far corner of Middle Earth and built himself up another power base. For him, wouldn't that have been a better outcome?


While Gandalf may have allowed Saruman back on the team, I highly doubt if he would have been allowed to be unsupervised. Furthermore, the Istari were put in Middle-Earth very specifically to deal with Sauron. Once he was destroyed, Saruman, had he tried to set up a new power base, would hve been flouting the Valar just as much as he was in LOTR.
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 10 - The Voice of Saruman

Postby Morwenna » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:47 pm

And Saruman was much too proud for his own good. Remember somewhere Gandalf (I think) said something about him insisting on hanging onto the shreds of his old plots rather than start fresh on the right side? He was insanely jealous of Gandalf. Haven't we all known people like that, who would rather nurse their bitterness than admit, especially to a rival, that they were wrong?
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 10 - The Voice of Saruman

Postby oikeroi » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:08 am

Q1: Saruman did not build the Orthank. It is clearly said that it was build by the men of westernesse (numenor) in the time of old, meaning it was bulit during the second age. The wizards (Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast) came to middle earth only during the third age. The Orthanc was a place where you can watch the stars (there is a name for it in english, but I've forgot it).
However, there is an interesting point. In the previous chapter it is said that Saruman took the Orthanc and changed it to fit him and his plans, making it a replica of barad dur, A smaller, less powerfull replica, but a trail of imitation nevertheless.
Q2: I wonder.... was it a deep plan of Gandalf. Let us remember that Saruman knew about the ring and a knew that a hobbit holds it. He did not know which one had the ring (I think he did not know that 4 hobbits set out from rivendell), and he certenly did not know that sitting on the first step were two "ordinary" hobbits and not the ring bearer. Was it a plan of Gandalf to keep Merry and Pippin away from Saruman and to increase his confusion about that? Surely had they came closer he would know that none of them had the ring, or would they have been so effected by his voice that all the plans of the company\rohan\gondor would lie bear in front of him?
Q3: After all the wars with rohan, his own imprisoment, the killing of boromir, the marring of Hama body, the destruction of ents and forest.... after all this, still Gandalf offers pardon to Saruman and beggs him to "come back" and to be the wise wizard (= maia). I think that Gandalf really ask for his help and hoped that Saruman would croos to their side. Was it the right decision for him? well considering the fact that he was subdue by a hobbit (even being a ring bearer) and killed by wormtongue, the answer is clear.
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 10 - The Voice of Saruman

Postby Morwenna » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:25 am

Q2: I hadn't thought about that. I just figured that they were at the bottom because they didn't figure in the discussion, but they had a right to hear everything. Then again, even though they were in earshot, they were (relatively) out of harm's way. (Right... considering the palantir... But even that turned out to be for the best!)
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 10 - The Voice of Saruman

Postby Billobob » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:56 am

Saruman did not build Orthanc actually it was the numoreans-sorry for the spelling.
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Re: TTT, Book 3, Chapter 10 - The Voice of Saruman

Postby Billobob » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:00 am

For the two other two questions: merry and pippin were left behind because Gandalf either didn't see the need of them being there or he thought Saruman could control them. Saroman made the wrong choice because when he refused he was barred from Valinor so when he died he went into the void. (You can check UT for Saruman's fate.)
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