TTT, Book 4, Chapter 3, The Black Gate Is Closed

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TTT, Book 4, Chapter 3, The Black Gate Is Closed

Postby Notta Hobbit » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:51 pm

Summary

The hobbits arrive at the Black Gate and find it well guarded. Frodo is determined to enter, even though Smeagol begs him not to and Sam sees that it's useless. Then Smeagol mentions the "other way." Frodo sees armies gathering from afar to enter Mordor and tells Smeagol that he will trust him again, but warns him that he will put on the Ring if needed. Smeagol explains going to Minas Ithil and using the stairs and tunnel to get past the tower. Both hobbits are very suspicious, and Frodo takes a long time to decide. Then an army of black men passes close by them, Sam asks if there were any oliphaunts, and Frodo agrees to go to Minas Ithil.

Questions

1. It's always seemed to me unlikely that Sam would stand up and recite the entirety of his Oliphaunt poem in this situation. What do you think?
1.a. Has anyone actually read all the way through Sam's poem? (I couldn't.)
2. Black Riders fly over them again in this location, but Frodo feels the menace as "more remote" even though they're closer to the Gate. Why?
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 3, The Black Gate Is Closed

Postby oikeroi » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:04 am

Q1: This is Sam, a plain simple hobbit who never went out of hobbiton before this journey, who had cry when he heard that he is going to see elves, who managed to go into the council of elrond when he was uninvited, and who actually have no notion of where thay are going and what dangers they face. It is only understandable that he can stand up in the shadow of the black gate, look for or sing about oliphaunt.
Q2: yes. But after reading "lays of beleriand" the poens int he LOTR are childgame.
Q3: I thing it is just the actual distance between him and the nazgul.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 3, The Black Gate Is Closed

Postby siddharth » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:41 am

oikeroi wrote:Q1: This is Sam, a plain simple hobbit who never went out of hobbiton before this journey, who had cry when he heard that he is going to see elves, who managed to go into the council of elrond when he was uninvited, and who actually have no notion of where thay are going and what dangers they face. It is only understandable that he can stand up in the shadow of the black gate, look for or sing about oliphaunt.


I don't think it's because of that. Well, even a simpleton would be terrified if he was standing at the doors of the Dark Lord of his age. Taking the fact, that he knows it's Sauron's home. He wouldn't have been much afraid, I can guess, if he didn't had an idea of where he was.

Saying that, I have always considered LOTR as well as the Sil to be written from the point of view of the free peoples, especially the hobbits if we are speaking about LOTR.(I think it as the red book of Westmarch. ;) ) I do think that realistically Sam's singing is not possible but considering that these are legends and tales of things long past for hobbits, such songs have been "added" by the later generations. What I am actually trying to say is it's not necessary that Sam might have sung a song but it may have been added as time passed (like real mythologies). Was that much clear?
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 3, The Black Gate Is Closed

Postby Notta Hobbit » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:26 pm

That's a great way of looking at it, Siddharth! I like it. In fact--this just occurred to me--who's to say "real" myths weren't composed by a single person, too? They just didn't write them down because they couldn't.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 3, The Black Gate Is Closed

Postby siddharth » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:50 am

Notta Hobbit wrote:who's to say "real" myths weren't composed by a single person, too? They just didn't write them down because they couldn't.


The thought is well asked and appreciated. :)

In general, I think most of the mythologies of major civilizations have been found out to be co-written, I think. Take for example the Illiad or Mahabharata. That is, the writing styles have been seen to be quite different. And as happens, mythologies start from some basic true story and even when one ( a single person) writes it down and is passed on, more and more people spice it up and twist it to gain more listeners and all. And after a thousand years, the tale would be so different that it can hardly be said to be written by one person. Well, that's at least what I think. And I love that thing about mythologies.

But there ought to be some exceptions out there for sure. Even Science has got exceptions. ;)
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 3, The Black Gate Is Closed

Postby Morwenna » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:10 pm

siddharth wrote:
Notta Hobbit wrote:who's to say "real" myths weren't composed by a single person, too? They just didn't write them down because they couldn't.


The thought is well asked and appreciated. :)

In general, I think most of the mythologies of major civilizations have been found out to be co-written, I think. Take for example the Illiad or Mahabharata. That is, the writing styles have been seen to be quite different. And as happens, mythologies start from some basic true story and even when one ( a single person) writes it down and is passed on, more and more people spice it up and twist it to gain more listeners and all. And after a thousand years, the tale would be so different that it can hardly be said to be written by one person. Well, that's at least what I think. And I love that thing about mythologies.

But there ought to be some exceptions out there for sure. Even Science has got exceptions. ;)


Regarding songs, that's what is called the "folk process." :)
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 3, The Black Gate Is Closed

Postby siddharth » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:57 pm

Morwenna wrote:
siddharth wrote:
Notta Hobbit wrote:who's to say "real" myths weren't composed by a single person, too? They just didn't write them down because they couldn't.


The thought is well asked and appreciated. :)

In general, I think most of the mythologies of major civilizations have been found out to be co-written, I think. Take for example the Illiad or Mahabharata. That is, the writing styles have been seen to be quite different. And as happens, mythologies start from some basic true story and even when one ( a single person) writes it down and is passed on, more and more people spice it up and twist it to gain more listeners and all. And after a thousand years, the tale would be so different that it can hardly be said to be written by one person. Well, that's at least what I think. And I love that thing about mythologies.

But there ought to be some exceptions out there for sure. Even Science has got exceptions. ;)


Regarding songs, that's what is called the "folk process." :)


I didn't know that. Thanks. :thumbsup:
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