TTT, Book 4, Chapter 5, The Window on the West

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TTT, Book 4, Chapter 5, The Window on the West

Postby Notta Hobbit » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:45 pm

Summary

Sam wakes to see Frodo being interrogated by Faramir in front of his army. As they talk about Boromir, Faramir lets on that he is dead, to Frodo's shock. Sam interrupts to tell Faramir to leave Frodo alone, but is shut down. Now Faramir reveals that Boromir was his brother, that he heard his horn blowing 11 days ago, and 3 days after that saw his funeral boat. He orders the hobbits to come with them to their secret hideout. On the way he talks more with Frodo and learns of Gandalf's death. Faramir guesses very shrewdly about the Ring but refrains from directly asking Frodo to confirm his guesses. He speaks feelingly of his love of peace and beauty.

The hobbits are blindfolded on the last mile to Henneth Annuin, but obviously they go steeply down, and end up in a cave. They have a good meal with the entire company, and then Faramir chats up Frodo again. Sam praises Galadriel, then lets his tongue get away from him and remarks that Boromir "wanted the Enemy's Ring!" Faramir repeats his vow that he would not take it. Frodo finally gives in to exhaustion and confesses to Faramir his plan to throw the Ring into Mount Doom. Then he falls asleep.

Questions
1. Does Faramir seem like a real person to you? Is he too perfect?
2. Would those blindfolds really have made any difference to finding Henneth Annuin again? It's by a river--cave, waterfall--couldn't you find it eventually?
3. Frodo's confession, to me, is one of the finest pieces pieces of writing in the book. What do you think of it?
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 5, The Window on the West

Postby Morwenna » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:21 am

Why would Faramir seem "too perfect"? He's a military leader doing his job, but carefully and with as much compassion as circumstances allow, but he doesn't seem unrealistic. He's definitely cautious, just the way Aragorn would be, not wanting to fall into a trap himself, and he needs information to know best how to proceed. Would the blindfolds really make a difference? Maybe yes, because although anyone could find a waterfall, there may have been more of them (the text doesn't say, I don't think), and the entrances to caves can be very well hidden and so can the paths to them.

I need to read this chapter again to find the nuances, and to reread Frodo's confession.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 5, The Window on the West

Postby siddharth » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:56 pm

Q.1: What Morwenna said. And I think it's Aragorn who is too perfect rather than Faramir.

Q.2: Henneth Annuin. Though they know that it's a river-cave and waterfall, no one knows the path leading to Henneth Annuin. That's why the blindfolds are needed. Like Lorien. Everyone knows about Caras Galadhon but no outsider knew the path to it.

Q.3: Have to read it myself now.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 5, The Window on the West

Postby Morwenna » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:08 pm

I finally re-read it. :) Poor Frodo. Weary and shaken and having just recovered from Sam's blurting out about the Ring and being ready to defend themselves, he finally tells someone, a stranger at that, what he's really there to do. Relief at Faramir's honesty after a fright? Gratitude at the care being taken of them? Just plain exhaustion? All of the above? From the conversation, he knows quite a bit about Faramir's attitudes and his relation with Gandalf. I'm sure he never expected to find an ally so far from home, or so close to Mordor.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 5, The Window on the West

Postby Notta Hobbit » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:32 am

So much of the dialogue in LOTR is written in "noble" language, even many times when the hobbits are just speaking among themselves. I'm not at all objecting to this, because Tolkien did it better than just about anybody I can think of. But I have a hard time imagining myself ever talking like that under any circumstances. But in the scene of Frodo confessing to Faramir, the noble language disappears and he sounds exactly like what I think I, or any other normal exhausted, frightened, discouraged person would be saying. The stops and starts, the awkwardness, the clinging to his dignity even--it's masterfully done, in my opinion. I'm no writer, but I've always heard that realistic dialogue is one of the hardest things to do, and Tolkien just aced it.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 5, The Window on the West

Postby oikeroi » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:07 pm

Q1: funny, a similar thought has cross my mind also. I don't know if I thoght about him as "unreal" but he does seems to be a different character. Just thing of it, we are almost at the end of the fourth book, we`ve met few "hystorical" characters: Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, Gladirial, Celeborm, Treebeard, Theodan, Eomer, Saruman, Boromir; we have been and heard about important places like rivendell, lorien, minas tirith..... and not until we meet Faramir we do we hear such a detailed story about numenor and its people, about its downfall and the story of the men of numenor in middle earth. Also we learn about the unbreakable connection between aman, elves and men. And we hear for the first time a hint about the old relationship between Sauron and people of Gondor (through Sauron stay in numenor), and all this we hear from Faramir. Such a noble man, wise, beloved, gentle, yet brave smart with arms. I dare to say that he seems the right characters to be a true men of numenor and a true heir of Elros.
So, he is real, but he is also wise and old, something like an elf lord.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 5, The Window on the West

Postby Morwenna » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:14 am

It's amazing how "old" he appears because of his wisdom, when he's actually quite a young man.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 5, The Window on the West

Postby siddharth » Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:57 am

Morwenna wrote:It's amazing how "old" he appears because of his wisdom, when he's actually quite a young man.


Yeah I think he was one of the wisest men of Middle-earth at that time. Perhaps third only to Aragorn and Denethor.

I wonder if he appears so "ancient" because of his correspondence with Gandalf. Would he have the same depth in history and lore if he had not met Gandalf? I don't think so, though he definitely would have been wise.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 5, The Window on the West

Postby Arvegil » Fri May 10, 2013 6:39 am

Notta Hobbit wrote:Summary

Sam wakes to see Frodo being interrogated by Faramir in front of his army. As they talk about Boromir, Faramir lets on that he is dead, to Frodo's shock. Sam interrupts to tell Faramir to leave Frodo alone, but is shut down. Now Faramir reveals that Boromir was his brother, that he heard his horn blowing 11 days ago, and 3 days after that saw his funeral boat. He orders the hobbits to come with them to their secret hideout. On the way he talks more with Frodo and learns of Gandalf's death. Faramir guesses very shrewdly about the Ring but refrains from directly asking Frodo to confirm his guesses. He speaks feelingly of his love of peace and beauty.

The hobbits are blindfolded on the last mile to Henneth Annuin, but obviously they go steeply down, and end up in a cave. They have a good meal with the entire company, and then Faramir chats up Frodo again. Sam praises Galadriel, then lets his tongue get away from him and remarks that Boromir "wanted the Enemy's Ring!" Faramir repeats his vow that he would not take it. Frodo finally gives in to exhaustion and confesses to Faramir his plan to throw the Ring into Mount Doom. Then he falls asleep.

Questions
1. Does Faramir seem like a real person to you? Is he too perfect?
2. Would those blindfolds really have made any difference to finding Henneth Annuin again? It's by a river--cave, waterfall--couldn't you find it eventually?
3. Frodo's confession, to me, is one of the finest pieces pieces of writing in the book. What do you think of it?


Actually, with regard to Faramir, he fits in pretty well into one of the literary hero patterns: the man who seeks nothing more than a quiet, normal life, who finds the role of hero thrust upon him.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 5, The Window on the West

Postby Morwenna » Sat May 11, 2013 7:04 am

Yes, he says that he doesn't love the arts of war for their own sake, only for the sake of defending Gondor which he loves.
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