INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby siddharth » Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:59 pm

I'll try to prepare the rest of the summaries for uniformity.
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby Lackluster » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:02 am

I just wanted to suggest that we split this work and then I noticed that Notta Hobbit, who was leading the TTT discussions from Chapter 3 all the way through to the end, has already put together nice and concise summaries in each chapter's opening post. I wonder if those summaries could not be simply copied and used (with an acknowledgement to Notta Hobbit), to save lots of efforts?
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby siddharth » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:11 am

Yes, I noticed that. I'll collect them, though I think quite a few of them (the longer ones) would need some minor editing to trim them down.


Departure of Boromir

Encounter with the orcs at Amon Hen; Boromir pierced with arrows and dying; Boromir confesses to Aragorn that he tried to take the Ring and dies; Boromir's funeral; Decision to save Merry and Pippin and start the trail


Riders of Rohan


Meeting with the Riders of Rohan and Eomer; Eomer telss them they found no hobbits though they killed the orcs. ride to the borders of Fangorn; find no trace of the Hobbits; that night Gimli sees an old man standing on the edge of the firelight who vanishes quickly and doubts he was Saruman.


Uruk-Hai

Argument between orcs about the hobbits; Pippin manages to cut the cord which bound his hands; leaves his Elven brooch as a sign; Race towards the forest; Upon nightfall the horsemen encircle the Orcs; Conviced by the hobbits Grishnakh carries them away; slain by a rider. Battle ensues; hobbits escape; Ugluk was slain on the edge of Fangorn by Eomer.
Last edited by siddharth on Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby siddharth » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:26 am

Treebeard

Merry and Pippin meet Treebeard. They chat briefly and discover that Treebeard, who carries them to "one of my homes" and tells them a bit of Entish history on the way; Talk of the Uruk-hai gets Treebeard to talking about Saruman, and he gets quite riled up. After calming down, he tells the story of the Entwives.



The White Rider
Aragorn correctly interprets the signs and follow the hobbits' route into the edges of Fangorn; encounter with Gandalf who they think is Saruman; they catch up with each other giving tidings; Gandalf advises them to go to the assistance of Rohan; Gandalf recounts his battle with the Balrog – where he died himself, and was "sent back" to finish his task; Gandalf calls Shadowfax and two other horses and they ride to Rohan.


King of the Golden Hall


They arrive at Edoras and are reluctantly admitted to Meduseld; required to leave their weapons at the door; Wormtongue insults Gandalf, and Gandalf magicks him to the floor; With Gandalf's encouragement, Theoden casts off Wormtongue's influence and regains nobility; releases Eomer from prison; Theoden offers Grima the choice of going to war against with him, or leaving forever; Wormtongue leaves; Theoden gives Shadowfax to Gandalf; The army begins to move toward Isengard.

Helms Deep

They meet the remnants of the Guard and decide to go to Helm's Deep to fortify it against Isengard forces; Gandalf takes off on mysterious business; the Isengard host attacks the Deep; Fighting ensues; the orcs try to blow up the Deep from below, but then Theoden leads a cavalry charge upon their rear which kills them all; At the end of the battle, a dark forest (of Huorns) appears in the distance, and Gandalf returns with Erkenbrand of Westfold.

The Road to Isengard

Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Theoden, and Eomer go to Isengard to "parley" with Saruman; Gimli describes the Caves of Aglarond, and he and Legolas promise to visit each other's favorite attractions; In the night they are passed by large groups of Huorns; next day they come to the ruined gate and find it's two hobbit gatekeepers.


Flotsam and Jetsam

Gandalf and Theoden ride off to see Treebeard; Legolas Gimli, Aragorn and Merry, Pippin share their adventures (including their finding of the Southfarthing stores); Merry and Pippin pick up the tale and describe the attack on Isengard and the coming of Gandalf and Grima; Aragorn raises concern about how the "leaf" got from Southfarthing to Isengard.

The Voice of Saruman

The company parley with Saruman; Upon Saruman's refusal to surrender Gandalf reveals that he is now the head of the Council and breaks his staff; Grima tosses the a black stone-ball down at Gandalf; Pippin retrieves it from whom Gandalf takes it; They leave the gate and Gandalf extracts a promise from Treebeard to watch over Saruman.

The Palantir

They turn back towards Rohan.At night, a restless Pippin steals the ball from Gandalf's sleeping grasp; Becomes entrapped by it and collapses; it becomes clear that he was seen by Sauron; Gandalf recognizes the palantir; he gives it to Aragorn; A Nazgul passes overhead, and Gandalf decides to ride ahead to Minas Tirith immediately, taking Pippin to protect him; En route he tells the story of the palantiri.
Last edited by siddharth on Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby Novice » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:50 pm

I think those summaries are far too long for an index.

If you note, at the beginning of the index, the thread links have no summary with them; gradually, one sentence summaries appear, and they have been getting longer.

This distracts from the original purpose of the index post, which is to enable people to quickly find the discussion threads and go there. An index is not a precis, or Student Notes summation. That first post should be as short, succinct and purposeful as possible, so people don't have to sift through lengths of narrative to find the link.

If you feel the need for the summaries, I suggest they be collected together in one thread (ie "Summaries of all TTT chapters"), and an index entry provided to link to that thread. When I have time, I'll go through the longer summaries in the Index First Post and cut them right back down.
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby siddharth » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:18 pm

I have shortened them all, to include only the main points. Is this okay ?
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby Novice » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:55 am

Siddharth, thank you. I'll edit them in tomorrow. Too tired and have an aching head at the end of a long, screen-intensive workday.
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby scirocco » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:17 am

Wow! Novice - hi!

Wonderful to see you back here. :) (Somehow it's not the same when you're Impenitent). :D
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby siddharth » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:32 am

Are you on HOF too scirocco? :)

I would try to do the rest of the chapters today, as my uni will open in a few dats and then I won't get much time.
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby Novice » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:53 pm

Scirocco! :D :D :D

How are you? Where are you? What are uou doing these days? I'm feeling such a surge of fond nostalgia.

Siddharth, in your own time, mellon. There's no urgency.
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby siddharth » Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:05 am

Here ends TTT. Sorry if the last few chapters seem a bit long. They are important and I cannot make them shorter.

Of Herbs and stewed Rabbit

They turn south and reach Ithilien; Sam asks Gollum to find some food while Frodo sleeps; Gollum brings back rabbits and Sam makes a thin stew; Sam's fire smokes; men discover them; Faramir, their leader, asks their business and Frodo gives him an shorter version; ambush on Southrons; Sams sees an Oliphaunt.

The Window on the West

Faramir interrogates Frodo; He learns of Boromir's death and Faramir's relation to him; hobbits are taken to Henneth-Annun; en-route Faramir learns of Gandalf's death and very shrewdly guesses about the Ring; In the cave after dinner Sam praises lets his tongue loose and reveals about the Ring; Faramir repeats his vow that he would not take it; Frodo gives in to exhaustion and confesses his plan.

The Forbidden Pool

Faramir wakes Frodo and shows him Gollum fishing in the big pool; Frodo lures Gollum back and lets him get captured; He is questioned then released into Frodo's custody; Frodo describes the route they plan to take into Mordor and Faramir reveals about Cirith Ungol; An unwilling Faramir lets them go.


Journey to the Crossroads

The trio come to a road leading east; They travel days and nights; the actual crossroads is enclosed by trees; They notice a huge stone statue with its head cut off, replaced by a stone; the head is on the ground beside it, and the sun also shines on some yellow and white flowers twining around its brow like a crown. Then the sun sets and the vision is gone.

The Stairs of Cirith Ungol

They see Minas Morgul shining with pale light, the top of the tower oscillating; when at the top of the ridge they see the release of a huge army led by the Witch-King issuing from the tower; They climb the Straight stair and Winding Stair; Sam remarks about how the tales from first age are still going on with them in it; They fall asleep;Gollum returns is touched by their love; Sam wakes up and calls him a sneak thus blighting the only chance at redemption he had.

Shelob's Lair

Gollum leads them inside Shelob's Lair; Gollum disappears and the hobbits get lost and trapped; Sam reminds Frodo of Galadriel's vial, which reveals Shelob; After running a while Frodo turns on Shelob with the phial and Sting; She leaves; While escaping Sam gets too slow and Shelob catches up with Frodo; Gollum grabs Sam but is defeated.


The Choices of Master Samwise

Sam manages to defeat Shelob who retreats; Sam cuts the webbing off Frodo but believes he is dead; Sam debates with himself what to do, and finally takes the Ring and proceeds; he hears orcs, and puts on the Ring to escape; with enhanced hearing he realizes the orcs are capturing Frodo's body; he runs back into the tunnel; overhears the two orc captains discussing events; He realizes that Frodo is not dead and is soon to be taken to Barad-Dur; Sam runs to the rescue but the doors of the tower are shut against him.
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby siddharth » Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:12 am

Here, I have also shortened this three summaries which you have already included in the index.

30. TTT, Book 4, Chapter 1: The Taming of Smeagol

Sam and Frodo get lost in Emyn Muil and try to find a way with no avail; Frodo spots Gollum, crawling insect-like on a distant cliff; Gollum approaches and leaps on Sam; Frodo subdues him by thrusting Sting against his neck; Gollum is suddenly subservient and vows total servitude, Despite not trusting him completely he asks him to lead them to Mordor.

31. TTT, Book 4, Chapter 2: The Passage of the Marshes

Gollum guides Frodo and Sam out of the hills and through the marshland that surrounds Mordor; Gollum leads Frodo and Sam through the Dead Marshes surrounded by ghostly floating lights; In the night a flying Nazgûl passes striking fear into them; the next morning, they arrive very close to the Black Gate; Gollum refuses to proceed but Frodo threatens him to make him go forward.

32. TTT, Book 4, Chapter 3: The Black Gate is Closed

The trio reach the gate and watch armies of Easterlings enter it; When Frodo decides to enter it that way Gollum admits that there is another secret way in; Despite not trusting him again they decide to seek his help; Gollum senses that other Men are heading towards Mordor too; Sam asks whether they have Oliphaunts with them and he sings a song from Shire about them.
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby scirocco » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:59 am

siddharth wrote:Are you on HOF too scirocco? :)


Hi siddharth, yes I am, although I don't post there that much.

Novice wrote:Scirocco! :D :D :D How are you? Where are you? What are you doing these days? I'm feeling such a surge of fond nostalgia.


I'm great thanks, Novice, same old, same old. I know what you mean about the nostalgia, how many years have we been going now? For anyone who doesn't know, this whole VTSG sub-forum was Novice's idea in the first place. It didn't even exist in the original "Tolkien Online" (if I'm allowed to mention that name?).

/end thread hijack.. :D I was going to say, I will have a little free time in September and can probably help with anything that might need doing. Such a shame that the formatting's all broken in the old threads. I wonder if there's a way it can be fixed. Maybe I should look into it.
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby Lackluster » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:56 pm

I was also looking through a lot of old posts lately, in this very sub-forum, and indeed the old HTML mark-up makes them difficult to read. I did convert some long and interesting posts into a readable form, so technically converting individual posts is not a problem, but since there are so many of them there hopefully is another way. An edit: even a whole page of posts can be converted this way and it even would fit into a single post (will need some further manual editing to better outline individual posts) - but I am not sure this is the way to go. And to keep the original structure, I would think that admin privileges would be needed to re-post the converted posts under the names of the original posters. Or something.

I don't know if the indexing format is any matter of discussion? I am pretty new here (but not new to indexing - am doing it at another site) and I thought that the best guidance for this site was the latest existing format. I know I brought up the issue of the summaries but are they really necessary in the Index thread? My feeling is rather that the summaries distract from the links, and are only a click away anyway (as they are posted at the beginning of each chapter). On the other hand, I hate to think that the efforts made so far to write them (by siddharth for example) are wasted. I would suggest, if possible, that at least for the ROTK indexing we do away with those summaries (that is, if ever we get to the ROTK discussion).
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby Novice » Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:35 pm

Scirocco, I hope we don't lose touch again! Are you here often? I admit that I am not - but I am a bit of a homing pigeon - I do return here eventually :D

Yes, the broken formatting in the old threads detracts terribly from the discussion, and of course, there's no way to fix it in-thread without admin privileges - and I can't imagine that any of the admins would dedicated so much time to going through each post to fix the formatting.

However, Lacklustre's post above sparked an idea (dangerous, I know! :D :D :D )

If we could copy the conversation per thread elsewhere and fix the formatting, as one long conversation rather than as individual posts - we could append one single post to each thread with a hotlink to the new-beaut, reformatted whole-conversation document that interested readers could download.

It would require a nominated place to host all these threads though.

It's doable, but would take dedication; long-term dedication.

Siddharth, I hate to see your work wasted. Shall I copy in the summaries or shall we discuss further? I do think that the purpose of the Index is simply to hotlink to the study threads rather than provide a precis of all the conversations.

Opinions, please?
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby siddharth » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:14 pm

...
Last edited by siddharth on Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby siddharth » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:15 pm

Well, I did what I did based on the already present summaries of the FotR chapters.
It's your thread and (and largely your forum), so do what you judge to be right.
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby Novice » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:02 pm

Not my forum at all! I'll edit in when I have some more time - am at work and have a report deadline.
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby Lackluster » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:15 pm

To me, wasted effort is a more regretful thing than a slightly non-uniform format. So I would be talking only about the future things like ROTK and - hopefully - other pieces not yet discussed but calling for it. I never wanted to hurt anybody's feelings. Sorry, siddharth, if that happened. I should have brought that point up earlier before the actual work was done.

As to Novice's idea about how to deal with HTML mark-up - I like it, and depending on the available space and on whether attachments are allowed, the reformatted document might be attached in the last post. I admit I couldn't find any 'attachment' button though, but maybe it is there somewhere. Or maybe there can be a separate section with the collection of reformatted threads as long posts (several per thread if necessary) linked to (and from) the original threads. I am willing to work on this (as time allows)... But does this need any approval as it will use space? Or was the idea that some external space should be used?
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby siddharth » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:15 pm

Well, at least this forum is here because of you, as scirocco said.
And no need to include them if you think they are distracting, it's okay for me.

ETA: There's no need for apologies! Seriously.
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research question re reference to "Luce(fer) publications"

Postby idlerat » Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:21 pm

Hello and thank you to anyone who reads this. I'm new to the boards, and I don't know where to post this question - if anyone can suggest anything, please let me know!

I'm trying to track down a reference for research:

Neil D. Davis, editor of the 1968 _Tolkien and the Critics_ volume, begins his introductory essay:

“This is surely a bad time for writing Tolkien criticism. Stories in Holiday, Esquire, Saturday Evening Post, Saturday Review, and the Luce(fer) publications, to say nothing of the feverish activity of the fanzines, do not produce a climate for serious criticism."

This passage is fairly widely quoted, but no one explains the final publication named. I cannot find "the Luce(fer) publications" in google (except for this quotation) or the catalog of my large university library. Does anyone know what they are?

Thank you very much!

Rat

ETA: Friend figured it out. Joke on publications of Henry Luce! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Luce
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby siddharth » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:00 am

:( did I kill this thread off?
Come back any or all of you...
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby Novice » Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:52 pm

Good lord, Siddharth! Of course, you did no such thing. I've started to edit in the summaries, in the process summarising them further to one sentence where possible.

Pardon my typos - tiny phone keyboard probs.
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby JamesSkyrunner » Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:59 pm

Sorry guys been super busy startef new job have almost no time but to read new post here and there but I plan to dive head first into helping where we at and what can I do to help the most
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby Jeanette Steigmen » Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:52 am

It doesn't really look like these virtual discussions are all that active anymore, but I think they are a great idea. I would love to get this going again. Who is still around and interested?
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby Morwenna » Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:39 pm

I am!!!! :D
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Re: INDEX of all discussion threads in VTSG, with links

Postby Vania tianran Liang » Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:03 pm

I'm here.
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