Question Concerning Wizards

Come here to join in a structured study of Tolkien's Works. Please read the guidelines before posting. New and veteran readers welcome.

Question Concerning Wizards

Postby Conman » Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:08 pm

I was just breezing through http://www.lordoftherings.net/legend/cultures/
and came across something that has me stuck. It said that wizards were sent to middle-earth to champion the good and all that stuff, but then also said there were 5 wizards sent to middle-earth. Now the only two Wizads i'm familair with are Gandalf and Saruman, unless the site is wrong altogether, i dont know, please answer if you know! thanks :)
User avatar
Conman
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:59 pm
Top

Postby Thewhitetree » Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:37 pm

First of all, welcome to TORC! :)

To answer your question simply:
-Gandalf
-Saruman
-Radagast
-Alatar
-Pallando

They were the five wizards of the Istari. There are also the legendary Blue Wizards of whom we do not know what became.

If you want you can serch this website about info regarding anysubject by following the link below.

http://forums.tolkienonline.com/viewtopic.php?t=69510

The above link contains a post with link to thread about ALL the subjects regarding Tolkien's work.

If you have further questions you may ask them here in the link below.

http://forums.tolkienonline.com/viewtopic.php?t=74656

Welcome again and I hope that you have fun here. You may find that you know no one here but that changes in no time and TOC is a very enjoyable place with very nice and smart people.

Have fun.

TWT
User avatar
Thewhitetree
Mariner


 
Posts: 7439
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 2:03 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada
Top

Postby rowanberry » Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:30 am

This kind of questions might get more attention and answers in the Books (Tolkien) forum; and, the links Thewhitetree gave you are definitely worth checking.

And, welcome. :)
User avatar
rowanberry
+++Out Of Cheese Error+++


 
Posts: 20480
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2002 12:26 am
Location: Back row of the chorus in a silly Bollywood movie
Top

Postby Conman » Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:50 pm

Thanks alot, im looking forward to getting into the swing of things here at TORC, :)
User avatar
Conman
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:59 pm
Top

Postby Ivriniel » Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:38 pm

Thewhitetree wrote:First of all, welcome to TORC! :)

To answer your question simply:
-Gandalf
-Saruman
-Radagast
-Alatar
-Pallando

They were the five wizards of the Istari. There are also the legendary Blue Wizards of whom we do not know what became.

TWT


I thought Alatar and Pallando were collectively known as the Blue Wizards.


Ivriniel
User avatar
Ivriniel
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 4357
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:16 pm
Location: Mississauga, Canada
Top

Postby rowanberry » Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:42 am

Yes, they were. And, in his late writings (in HoME 12, IIRC), Tolkien explained that, they actually played an important role by hindering Sauron's efforts to make some of the peoples in the east to his allies.
User avatar
rowanberry
+++Out Of Cheese Error+++


 
Posts: 20480
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2002 12:26 am
Location: Back row of the chorus in a silly Bollywood movie
Top

Postby Ponyboy » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:42 am

rowanberry wrote:This kind of questions might get more attention and answers in the Books (Tolkien) forum; and, the links Thewhitetree gave you are definitely worth checking.

And, welcome. :)


whats amazing is that we know nothing of the Blue Wizards!
User avatar
Ponyboy
Shield Bearer

 
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:19 am
Location: Waikanae, New Zealand
Top

Postby ltnjmy » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:44 am

The Blue Wizards were Maiar loyal to Orome - I read somewhere - and I probably have this wrong - that their distant travel to the East was expected/necessary (?) because the Valar Orome had the greatest knowledge of the lands in Middle Earth
User avatar
ltnjmy
Citizen of Imladris
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:24 am
Location: exploring the halls of Thranduil
Top

Postby Ponyboy » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:27 am

ltnjmy wrote:The Blue Wizards were Maiar loyal to Orome - I read somewhere - and I probably have this wrong - that their distant travel to the East was expected/necessary (?) because the Valar Orome had the greatest knowledge of the lands in Middle Earth


yeah I read that they were "presumed" have been successful in the East. I wonder what was the dire need in that are? And one of them came 2nd after Curinir...I think it was Allatar that was picked before Olorin even. Best left to the imagination I suppose?
User avatar
Ponyboy
Shield Bearer

 
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:19 am
Location: Waikanae, New Zealand
Top

Postby ltnjmy » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:30 pm

But what I like best is Gandalf/Olorin's honesty - When Manwe & Varda wanted Olorin to go - Olorin said that he was afraid of Sauron (in the tale of the Istari in The Unfinished Tales).

Then Manwe said that it was all the more reason for him to go as the third messenger (the first was Saruman; the second was Aiwendil (I think Radagast)) - then I thought it was neat when Prof. Tolkien then wrote that Varda raised her head and said that Olorin would not be "The Third" - showing her foreknowledge that Olorin would eventually triumph as the first/best messenger from the Valar...
User avatar
ltnjmy
Citizen of Imladris
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:24 am
Location: exploring the halls of Thranduil
Top

Postby Ponyboy » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:35 pm

ltnjmy wrote:But what I like best is Gandalf/Olorin's honesty - When Manwe & Varda wanted Olorin to go - Olorin said that he was afraid of Sauron (in the tale of the Istari in The Unfinished Tales).

Then Manwe said that it was all the more reason for him to go as the third messenger (the first was Saruman; the second was Aiwendil (I think Radagast)) - then I thought it was neat when Prof. Tolkien then wrote that Varda raised her head and said that Olorin would not be "The Third" - showing her foreknowledge that Olorin would eventually triumph as the first/best messenger from the Valar...


Yes...very beautiful. Maybe the reason Saruman was always jealous of Gandalf, or fearful of him...his contempt for Gandalf??
User avatar
Ponyboy
Shield Bearer

 
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:19 am
Location: Waikanae, New Zealand
Top

Postby ltnjmy » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:05 pm

Ponyboy wrote:
ltnjmy wrote:But what I like best is Gandalf/Olorin's honesty - When Manwe & Varda wanted Olorin to go - Olorin said that he was afraid of Sauron (in the tale of the Istari in The Unfinished Tales).

Then Manwe said that it was all the more reason for him to go as the third messenger (the first was Saruman; the second was Aiwendil (I think Radagast)) - then I thought it was neat when Prof. Tolkien then wrote that Varda raised her head and said that Olorin would not be "The Third" - showing her foreknowledge that Olorin would eventually triumph as the first/best messenger from the Valar...


Yes...very beautiful. Maybe the reason Saruman was always jealous of Gandalf, or fearful of him...his contempt for Gandalf??


I completely agree with your estimation of Saruman. If the Hobbit is completed by Del Toro & Jackson - I hope they can get Christopher Lee to change his mind and return as Saruman in the second bridge movie (if that is still going forward - because as you know, Saruman was not really a presence in The Hobbit.) (Sir Ian McKellan is planning on returning as Gandalf.)
User avatar
ltnjmy
Citizen of Imladris
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:24 am
Location: exploring the halls of Thranduil
Top

Postby Ponyboy » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:18 pm

ltnjmy wrote:
Ponyboy wrote:
ltnjmy wrote:But what I like best is Gandalf/Olorin's honesty - When Manwe & Varda wanted Olorin to go - Olorin said that he was afraid of Sauron (in the tale of the Istari in The Unfinished Tales).

Then Manwe said that it was all the more reason for him to go as the third messenger (the first was Saruman; the second was Aiwendil (I think Radagast)) - then I thought it was neat when Prof. Tolkien then wrote that Varda raised her head and said that Olorin would not be "The Third" - showing her foreknowledge that Olorin would eventually triumph as the first/best messenger from the Valar...


Yes...very beautiful. Maybe the reason Saruman was always jealous of Gandalf, or fearful of him...his contempt for Gandalf??


I completely agree with your estimation of Saruman. If the Hobbit is completed by Del Toro & Jackson - I hope they can get Christopher Lee to change his mind and return as Saruman in the second bridge movie (if that is still going forward - because as you know, Saruman was not really a presence in The Hobbit.) (Sir Ian McKellan is planning on returning as Gandalf.)


Yeah Saruman displayed a contempt for the other wizards...a jealousy that he didn't try to hide (at least not in Fellowship). I can't see anyone else portraying Saruman other than Lee, but I suppose he's gotten way too old now. It's probably not easy for him to travel so far at his age.
User avatar
Ponyboy
Shield Bearer

 
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:19 am
Location: Waikanae, New Zealand
Top

Postby Úlairi » Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:24 am

Here is everything that I could find on the Ithryn Luin, there may be more however.

The first reference is in The Lord of the Rings where Saruman loses his temper with Gandalf:

The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers - The Voice of Saruman

He laughed wildly. 'Later!' he cried, and his voice rose to a scream. 'Later!' Yes, when you also have the Keys of Barad-dúr itself, I suppose; and the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards...


Unfinished Tales - The Istari

Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to Middle-Earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dúnedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs were five. The first to come was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order. Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue...


An interesting point to note here is that there appears to have been more than five as the "number is unknown". What I find even more interesting in this quote is that Middle-Earth was "where there was the most hope". It appears that the rest of the Earth had fallen into darkness as we see with the Haradrim.

Unfinished Tales - The Istari

Of the Blue little was known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin 'the Blue Wizards'; for they passed into the East with Curunír, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known.


I always had a personal theory that the Lord of the Nazgûl may have been one of the Ithryn Luin, however this would seem contradictory of the Elvish poem:

The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring - The Shadow of the Past

Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die...


However, it does say in Unfinished Tales:

Unfinished Tales - The Istari

They came therefore in the shape of Men...


Perhaps it is plausible then, maybe I should create a topic on it. Would be quite interesting *muses*.

Anyway,

Unfinished Tales - The Istari

...two other 'Blue Wizards', unnamed, who passed with Saruman into the East, but unlike him never returned into the Westlands...


Unfinished Tales - The Istari

But only two came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë... and Alatar took Pallando as a friend.


Here the Quenya forms of their names are mentioned, which is why the above quote stipulates that they had no names which Christopher Tolkien interpreted to mean names given to them by the Peoples of Middle-Earth like Gandalf/Mithrandir, Saruman and Radagast.

Unfinished Tales - The Istari

...meaning of course that they had no names in the West of Middle-Earth...


Christopher Tolkien also makes a sidenote here as to the meaning of Pallando:

Unfinished Tales - The Istari

Pallando, despite the spelling, perhaps contains palan 'afar'...


The meaning of Alatar is unmentioned but I would speculate that if it were 'Aldatar' it would likely mean "high tree" which isn't a very noble name!

Unfinished Tales - The Istari

Olórin to Manwë and Varda, Curumo to Aulë, Aiwendil to Yavanna, Alatar to Oromë, and Pallando also to Oromë (but this replaces Pallando to Mandos and Nienna).


Another interesting note of Christopher's is this:

Unfinished Tales - The Istari

It might be (although this is the merest guess) that Oromë of all the Valar had the greatest knowledge of the further parts of Middle-Earth, and that the Blue Wizards were destined to journey in those regions and remain there.


So far we know:

    - They were known only in the West of Middle-Earth as the Ithryn Luin.
    - Their names in Valinor were Alatar and Pallando.
    - They journeyed into the far East with Saruman the White.
    - They were either ensnared by Sauron, perished or remained pursuing the purposes for which they were sent.
    - They never returned to the Westlands.
    - They wore sea-blue.

There is also another (unimportant) reference in The Silmarillion

The Silmarillion - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

...and others of the Istari who went into the east of Middle-earth, and do not come into these tales.


Here is a very interesting quote from The Letters of JRR Tolkien:

The Letters of JRR Tolkien - #211: To Rhona Beare

I really do not know anything clearly about the other two - since they do not concern the history of the N.W. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.


This quote perhaps gives us the greatest insight as to the Middle-earth names of the Ithryn Luin. The parts in italics are commentaries by Christopher Tolkien.

The History of Middle-earth XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth - Last Writings: The Five Wizards

...the Five Wizards and their functions and operations', arose from my father's consideration of the matter of Glorfindel, as is seen from the opening words: 'Was in fact Glorfindel one of them?' He observed that he was 'evidently never supposed to be when The Lord of the Rings (underline mine) written', adding that there is no possibility that some of them were Eldar 'of the highest order of power', rather than Maiar...

No names are recorded for the two wizards.They were never seen or known in the lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same time. Possibly Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast did, but more likely Saruman the chief (and already over mindful of this) came first and alone. Probably Gandalf and Radagast came together, though this has not yet been said. ... (what is most probable) ... Glorfindel also met Gandalf at the Havens. The other two are only known to (have) exist(ed) [sic] by Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a private piece of information.

...Another note is even rougher and more difficult:

The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Rómestámo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.


What is particularly curious is that Tolkien conceived that Glorfindel upon his return to Middle-earth (to aid Elrond) may have been one of the Ithryn Luin!!! Obviously the concept was discarded but it is one of the many incredible doorways into the mind of one of the greatest imaginations in human history. The Middle-earth names and their translations of the Ithryn Luin are also given here. He also adds considerable detail as to their mission which included searching the hiding place of Sauron after his disembodied spirit fled after the siege at Gorgoroth and notes that they had considerable influence on the history of the Second and Third Ages. The forces of the East would have outnumbered the West if they had not been "disarrayed" by the Ithryn Luin also. So perhaps the the north-west of Middle-earth had more to thank than just the Fellowship, Rohan and Gondor!

Cheers,

Úlairi.
User avatar
Úlairi
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:18 am
Location: Down the rabbit hole...
Top

Postby Vea mi olori » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:38 pm

Úlairi wrote:I always had a personal theory that the Lord of the Nazgûl may have been one of the Ithryn Luin, however this would seem contradictory of the Elvish poem:

The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring - The Shadow of the Past

Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die...


However, it does say in Unfinished Tales:

Unfinished Tales - The Istari

They came therefore in the shape of Men...


Perhaps it is plausible then, maybe I should create a topic on it. Would be quite interesting *muses*.

But are the other Istari ever considered to be mere men by anyone? They are associated mostly with the elves, if anything, and so such a link would be rather unlikely. Although it must be said that such an opinion is based on the guesses of such that met the Istari during their time on Middle-earth (established to be the Third Age, I believe), and Gondor was hardly a seat of high perception at that time, at least until Denethor.

I'd put more stock on the assertion that they went wrong, re-emphasiing the point that Olórin (Gandalf) was the mightiest of the Istari. If they did not, then are they not equaling Gandalf in his achievements of swaying a whole region of Middle-earth towards Sauron's defeat?

I'm more inclined to follow this quote from the Unfinished Tales:

Úlairi wrote:What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlived Sauron


Where also did you find the reference that " they had considerable influence on the history of the Second and Third Ages"? I'm not doubting the possibility of their influence, just its timing; I was fairly sure that the Istari were confined solely to the Third Age, which I believe was attested by Gandalf at the end of LOTR. Where does the idea of them spanning the ages come from?
User avatar
Vea mi olori
Shield Bearer

 
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Norfolk, UK
Top

Postby rowanberry » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:04 am

Did you read Úlairi's post properly, Vea mi olori? He gives the reference quite clearly: The History of Middle-earth XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth - Last Writings: The Five Wizards. In that essay, Tolkien speculated that the Blue Wizards didn't arrive at the same time with Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast (who arrived around 1000 TA), but already in the Second Age.

So, it all comes from the Professor himself. :)
Image I'm judging MoST again this year! Ready for the opening banquet...

MoME 2013 results are in!

The Sons of Fëanor re-embodied in the beginning of the Fourth Age? Yes, for The Maedhros and Tygarya Saga – and, as fire-hearted as ever!

On my way to Morannon on the Walk to Rivendell and Beyond!


Shire and Shutter - the TORC photoblog

Thoughts about dance, life, and everything
User avatar
rowanberry
+++Out Of Cheese Error+++


 
Posts: 20480
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2002 12:26 am
Location: Back row of the chorus in a silly Bollywood movie
Top

Postby FrodoTook » Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:40 pm

Thank you Úlairi

Thank you for your sharing ( with references ). You referenced many things I had forgotten and my mind needed refreshing of.

A really great post and I thank you so much for taking the time to share it.

Nice to meet you.

Welcome to ( or welcome back to ) TORC.

Your kind of posts are one of the types which make my revisiting this site worthwhile.

:hihi: rowanberry

Great to see you.
User avatar
FrodoTook
Efff Teee

 
Posts: 6774
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:47 am
Location: South Carolina
Top


Return to Virtual Tolkien Study Group

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests