FOTR Book 3, Chs. 1/2:Departure of Boromir - Riders of Rohan

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FOTR Book 3, Chs. 1/2:Departure of Boromir - Riders of Rohan

Postby Roccondil » Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:03 am

Hi Everyone! Welcome to 2008 and a new discussion thread in the VTSG!

If you are a new poster, please read the Stickies first.

The summaries of the first two chapters of book 3 follow, after which I have given some thoughts for discussion - but please feel free to add your own as well. :)

Chapter 1: The Departure of Boromir
The Fellowship has divided into small parties searching for Frodo around Parth Galen and near Amon Hen. Aragorn has told Sam to follow him, but he has not.

Aragorn finds footprints of Frodo going down hill, but he decides to go to the top, and the Seat of Seeing, before following back downhill. He sees nothing however, but as he stands there he hears orcs in the woods below. He then hears the Horn of Boromir blowing.

Aragorn races back downhill and finds Boromir in a small glade in the woods, pierced with many arrows, and dying.

Boromir confesses to Aragorn that he tried to take the Ring from Frodo, and asks him to go to Minas Tirith to save his people. He tells Aragorn that the orcs have taken the Hobbits, but dies before he can tell Aragorn whether Frodo was one of those.

With Legolas and Gimli, when the arrive, they give him the best funeral they can devise and send him off in one of their boats to the Falls of Rauros.

During this time they also have to solve the riddle of the orcs and the hobbits.

Aragorn can see that not all the dead orcs were from Mordor. Some were from the Misty Mountains and some, they decide, were orcs of Saruman. Later they also conclude that Frodo and Sam were not captured, but had taken their packs and left to continue their journey to Mordor on their own.

Their choice, then is to follow Frodo and Sam or to follow the orcs who must have both Merry and Pippin as captives. Aragorn makes his choice and decides that they shall follow the orcs.

It was now several hours since Boromir had fallen and was late afternoon. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli pick up the trail of the orcs and follow them as the sun begins to set.

Chapter 2: The Riders of Rohan
All night Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli follow the trail across the highlands of the Emyn Muil. They reach the edge of the Emyn Muil and see the plains of Rohan stretching before them. Legolas sees the orc-company, twelve leagues away across the plains. Following the trail, Aragorn finds Pippin’s elven-broach, dropped as a sign for any that might follow.

They follow all that day and the following two and rest that night at the top of a green hill. They wake in the morning and Aragorn and Legolas see a company of Riders approaching back down the orc-trail. They await the arrival of the Riders, hoping for news of the orcs and perhaps the Hobbits also.

The Riders, as they pass the foot of the hill, do not see the three, wrapped in their elven-cloaks, until Aragorn stands up and hails them as they pass.

The Riders halt and encircle the three. Their leader Éomer, questions Aragorn about their presence in Rohan. Aragorn reveals his true name and ancestry and commands Éomer to choose whether to aid him or thwart him.

Éomer is torn between his duty to his King, whose command is that none shall travel in Rohan without his leave, and his desire to help Aragorn. He tells him of the war in Rohan with Saruman and his orcs, and asks Aragorn to come to the King, for they would need his strength. He also tells Aragorn that they overtook the orcs and slew them all, but found no others there.

Aragorn insists that he must continue his quest to find the Hobbits and so Éomer finally consents to allow him to continue, and indeed will lend him horses, but asks that he comes to the King once his quest is completed. Aragorn agrees.

Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli then ride down the orc-trail to the borders of Fangorn forest, where they find the place of the battle between the orcs and the Riders. They find no trace of the Hobbits and settled down for the night.

Gimli, who had the first watch, saw an old man standing on the edge of the firelight, but when Aragorn, who woke immediately, moved towards him, he vanished. Legolas then saw to his dismay that the horses had dragged their pickets and vanished into the night.

Gimli was sure that the old man was Saruman, and Aragorn agreed.

The night passed. The old man did not return and neither did the horses.

There are several thoughts for discussion brewing…. here’s a few.

1. Aragorn was torn with indecision after the death of Boromir and several hours were wasted before they began to follow the orcs. Was this in character for the Aragorn that we know, and if so, why?

2. Why might Aragorn have seen nothing from Amon Hen?

3. Tolkien was developing Boromir’s character for several chapters prior to this one. What can we now tell about the character of Boromir from this chapter?

2. From a story-external point of view, this is a pivotal part of the book. The Fellowship divides and we move from a linear structure to the interlaced structure that has been discussed by several writers, including Shippey. Is the success with this device one of the main reasons why such a long story keeps the interest of the reader?

3. Was the death of Boromir inevitable in the Tolkien’s mind?

4. The introduction of Éomer brings in a major new character to the story. Immediately, he has to make a decision as hard as the one Aragorn made in the previous chapter. Why does he choose to disobey his orders?
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Postby Morwenna » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:14 am

Wow. A lot to contemplate.

I think Aragorn's seeming indecision is in character, because all along he has been at least visibly depending on Gandalf's leadership. He has been thrust in to the leader's role by Gandalf's fall, and his own original plan (as he told the Council, or was it just Elrond and the Fellowship?) was to go to Minas Tirith with Boromir, but he knew, or believed, that Gandalf himself was to go to Mordor with Frodo. The debate at Parth Galen brings this out. But now the Fellowship is sundered into three, Boromir on his deathbed begs Aragorn to go to Minas Tirith, two hobbits are prisoners and two are off on the main quest with no assistance. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes!
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Postby rowanberry » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:03 pm

Some thoughts for the first two questions, for a start:

1. I also see Aragorn's indecision fully in character. He is faced with an important choice, without having enough relevant information to make it at first. Only after finding out that Frodo and Sam for sure have left together for Mordor, that Merry and Pippin are most probably alive, and that it's to Isengard that they've been taken, he is able to decide what would be the best course of action.

Here, I think, comes up something that I see as one of the basic themes in the LOTR: Choices and decisions. All of the characters are faced with hard decisions, and all of them have to choose right at the right moment; just one wrong choice could ruin the whole quest, because every choice has some kind of a domino effect.

2. I think that, the ancient kings who went to see something on Amon Hen, had to go there with time, to sort of meditate. Also, they probably had in their mind a clear question to which they were seeking an answer. Aragorn was definitely in a hurry, and only wished to see something that could help him in some way, and thus he was not in a suitable mood for getting any visions there. (I also believe that, without the Ring on, Frodo wouldn't have seen anything there either.)

I'll get at the rest of the questions later. :)
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Postby Morwenna » Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:01 pm

I think the interlaced structure helps a great deal. It not only broadens the scope of the action, it shows us much more of the world: the terrain, the peoples. It gives us the panoramic view, but from personal angles.
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Postby rowanberry » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:49 am

As for Boromir's character, he is a soldier, and a valiant fighter, as we have seen before. After the bout of madness caused by the Ring has passed, he acts according to his code of honour: as unimportant as his companions might seem to him, he defends them from the orcs, even to death. And, when Aragorn finds him, he passes to him all the vital information as long as he still has time. Also, he realizes his foolishness, and is ready to admit it and ask for forgiveness, which is something that takes a lot of courage. Think of Finarfin turning back and admitting that leaving Valinor was a mistake; he is forgiven, as is Boromir.

In the early drafts for the LOTR, Boromir didn't die; but there, he went over to Saruman's side and betrayed the Fellowship. By making him die in a battle, Tolkien offered him a more honourable way to be offed from the story. It would have been quite unrealistic if all the central characters had survived; at some point, for that reason, Tolkien even planned Pippin to get killed at the Morannon. So, I believe that in his mind, Boromir's death was inevitable.
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Postby Nadreck_of_Palain7 » Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:14 pm

I am glad this forum seems to have revived. I had stopped checking it for a while, so I hope I did not miss much.

2. Why might Aragorn have seen nothing from Amon Hen?

I think that whatever Power or spirit that was behind the power of Amon Hen functioned in a way to put Aragorn on his own resources and make him take responsibility for his choices, as part of his preparation for leadership.


3. Was the death of Boromir inevitable in the Tolkien’s mind?

Tolkien often adopted the pose that the story came to him rather than being constructed by him. Of course he probably thought that it came from his subconscious. I have not read as much of HoME as some of the other posters here. But I think that nothing was inevitable beyond the basic story of Frodo carrying the Ring. Even Aragorn's major role as the Heir of Islidur was not known when Tolkien started the story, as Tolkien first invented "Trotter" as a hobbit, before he morphed into the Ranger Strider.

Boromir's dying confession to Aragorn, and Aragorn's forgiveness, reminded me of the Catholic rite of confession, which would make it one of the implicit religious elements that Tolkien put into the story while avoiding the explicitly religious.

rowanberry wrote:It would have been quite unrealistic if all the central characters had survived;


Definitely true, considering the perils and battles they experience. I started thinking of all the wounds the Fellowship suffered.

Frodo - Wounded 4 times (Weathertop, Chamber of Mazarbul, Cirith Ungol, loss of his finger at Mount Doom), plus the hardships of his journey in Mordor. He had a very tough time.

Sam - Wounded slightly in the Chamber of Mazarbul. Hardships in Mordor.

Gandalf - Apparently killed in Moria, but resurrected.

Aragorn - As far as we can tell, he was never wounded, though he had a close call at Helm's Deep.

Merry - Slightly wounded when captured by the Uruk Hai. Almost died from stabbing the Nazgul.

Pippin - Knocked unconscious when the troll fell on him at the Black Gate.

Gimli - Slightly wounded at Helm's Deep.

Legolas - Not a scratch, as far as I can remember.

Boromir - Killed by the Uruk Hai.

So the Fellowship actually had a high casualty rate, with 2 killed and 5 wounded at least slightly. Considering the perils they were in, they got off rather well, but they were far from unscathed.


4. The introduction of Éomer brings in a major new character to the story. Immediately, he has to make a decision as hard as the one Aragorn made in the previous chapter. Why does he choose to disobey his orders?

I think Eomer was very upset with the way things were going in Theoden's court, because of the malign influence of Wormtongue. He must have felt that he had to act independently, since the King could no longer function effectively. Eomer would never directly oppose the king, but he was willing to trust his own judgment that Aragorn and his companions were not a threat to Rohan, but might end up being allies. Perhaps he was willing to take risks to try to shake things up, in the hope that stirring things up might cause some sort of change. Of course, that is exactly what happened.
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Postby earendil81 » Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:56 pm

rowanberry wrote:
1. I also see Aragorn's indecision fully in character. He is faced with an important choice, without having enough relevant information to make it at first. Only after finding out that Frodo and Sam for sure have left together for Mordor, that Merry and Pippin are most probably alive, and that it's to Isengard that they've been taken, he is able to decide what would be the best course of action.

I too see Aragorn’s attitude in character. Not only the indecision but the fact that he will not leave Boromir’s body to any kind of vultures (if such a thing exists in ME ;)). Plus, he needs the time to find out clues of what to do. He does not know yet which Hobbits were taken. And then he has to decide if his promise to Boromir is more important than the life of Merry and Pippin. Not that there should be any doubt about this but he needs to decide how to best lead the party. It also seems he is feeling a deep sense of failure and questions his ability to do something right, hence his indecision. What if he made another bad choice?

rowanberry wrote: In the early drafts for the LOTR, Boromir didn't die; but there, he went over to Saruman's side and betrayed the Fellowship. By making him die in a battle, Tolkien offered him a more honourable way to be offed from the story. It would have been quite unrealistic if all the central characters had survived; at some point, for that reason, Tolkien even planned Pippin to get killed at the Morannon. So, I believe that in his mind, Boromir's death was inevitable.


I must admit I did not know of this – then again, I don’t consider myself a scholar of Tolkien’s work – but I think there might be something else to this. When spoken of by the Elves it seems that Humans are weak and most prone to be attracted by power. It is true, but I think that Boromir’s death also tells us about Tolkien’s Christianity. There is a way to redemption; I think that having Boromir betray the Fellowship would have made this human one-dimensional whereas Human characters in LOTR are most interesting because of their two dimensions; they are the only ones who hesitate. By betraying the community, Boromir’s character would have given the message that human are just hopeless and their will for power is stronger than anything else. And somehow, to me it goes against the belief that the Professor embraced.
Boromir is attracted by power and tries to steal the Ring from Frodo but he redeems himself by trying to save the hobbits. He is not a bad man but a desperate and tempted one in a way. We all have weaknesses, but Boromir fell for them and then acknowledges his error, asks for and is given forgiveness, which somehow also reflects the idea that “Ask and you shall receive”.
Later on, we meet his kin; Faramir and Denethor who are also two-dimensional, although it is less obvious for Faramir. Eomer, Eowyn and Theoden enter the same kind of scheme, as Eomer’s decision show.

4. The introduction of Éomer brings in a major new character to the story. Immediately, he has to make a decision as hard as the one Aragorn made in the previous chapter. Why does he choose to disobey his orders?

The decision made by Éomer is indeed one that is hard. I guess that there might be several reasons for which he chooses to disobey orders. Some that we are told later on obviously, and maybe something else.
1) He knows Grima Wormtongue is not a man to be trusted. Éomer says himself that he knew of Grima’s coveting his sister.
2) He knows that Theoden is acting under Grima’s advice and that it is not for the best of his people.
3) The something else; at some point it is said that Rohirrim are Men of the Twilight (or something like that), when Gandalf explains the differences between the races of Men. They may not have the long foresight of the Dunedain but I guess that it still lingers somehow.
Or to take it from another - more pragmatic - point of view, Éomer decides to trust his heart rather than his orders.

It is like a soldier deciding to ask himself "should I do what I have been ordered or should I do what is right?" And he decides to do what is right.
How does he know it is right; maybe because killing someone without reason is never the right thing to do somehow.

Just some thoughts
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Postby Arvegil » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:13 pm

A little late, but...

"3. Was the death of Boromir inevitable in the Tolkien’s mind? "

Boromir was engaged in an attempt to use the enemy's weapons against him- a habit referred to as "Sarumanism" in one of Tolkien's letters. With such a fall from grace, answering with his life was probably the best way to redeem the character of Boromir.
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A REAL Late Addition

Postby ArathornJax » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:46 pm

On Amon Hem, I think that Aragorn was over burden and thus was unable to see anything. Aragorn was struggling with his decision on what to do. His duty required him now to stay with Frodo and the Quest for Mt. Doom, especially since Gandalf had fallen. His heart is with Arwen and I really believe that he set out to accomplish the requirement that Elrond had laid on him and Arwen for them to wed; Aragorn has to become King of the Reunited Kingdom of Arnor and Gondor. To accomplish this required him to return to Minis Tirith and prove his claim. Using past history (Earnil, Earnur) this was probably going to be by being victorious in the coming battle. As we later learn there are other avenues that allow his kingship to be proven, but I'm sure his heart was for going with Boromir to Minis Tirith.

I think Boromir's actions and motivations are shown here. Tolkien made a distinct comparison of Faramir and Boromir, pointing out that Boromir was more like Earnur, focused on battle, arms and deeds. I feel because of this, Boromir was more open to the temptation of the One Ring. However, after Frodo escapes from him, Boromir does his duty and finds Merry and Pippin and defends them with his life, giving it for them. When we compare that to the loss of despair of Denethor who abandons his duty, Boromir though having human weakness, completes his role. In the end, I think Tolkien had decided to have Boromir be the means of breaking the Fellowship up, so Frodo and Sam can continue the quest for Mt. Doom, and the others were off to their various destinations and roles (knowing that Tolkien did not have this all mapped out). Thus Boromir had to die in order to redeem himself and accomplish his duty, a warriors death that redeems the warrior.

Anyway, just some thoughts that I had on the chapter and from the discussion questions.
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Postby Bombadillo » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:46 pm

I guess that there are a few people still posting to this board. :) I feel bad that I abandoned it and missed the discussion of Old Tom Bombadillo's house. Real life and all that....

To attempt to sort of answer a few of the questions at once, I would say that this section is one of the great defining moments for Men (the race) in Tolkien's Middle Earth. On one hand we have the lust for power and short sidghtedness that exemplifies Boromir (although he does realize his error and ultimately redeem himself in the reader's eyes), the nearly elvish nature of the Numenorean Man as seen in Aragorn, and some kind of combination of the two in Eomer.

First Boromir. He has the personal power and the ego that comes with it which is so familiar to all of us when we look around at people we know in real life. Boromir is that type of man who can and does do great things but spends more time talking about what he does and thinking about ways to accrue more power to do more great things than wondering about which things he should really be doing. He is much more interested in what he can do and not very interested at all in if he should do it in the first place. It pays to remember, however, that Boromir was a great and valiant man. He was ready to charge headlong into battle with the Balrog in an attempt to save Gandalf in Moria, his bravery unimpeded by any knowledge of his foe that would have paralyzed him with fear as it did Legolas.

Aragorn, on the other hand, is a completely different type of man. The legacy he inherits from Numenor makes him radically different than Boromir or his house. When I think of Aragorn I think of him heading to the Last Homely House and fighting off the Black Riders with only a broken sword to arm himself with. I doubt that Boromir would ever have left his room without a weapon close to hand, much less go on a journey with a broken one unless he had no choice. I think of Aragorn with Elrond and writing poetry with Bilbo and walking in the woods of Lorien and am struck by how elvish he seems. He is not aloof but is lordly, an attribute of his elvish heritage it seems. I get the feeling that he would rather write poetry and sing of days gone past if he had his wish and only fights (and fights well) because he must.

Eomer is some kind of combination of the two types, a more modern man perhaps? Or a truly lordly man arising with no elvish lineage as a counterpart to King Aragorn? He comes from a great line of kings although they of course cannot compare to Aragorn's line, and yet he is still a man of striking nobility, a man with similar characteristics to Aragorn but subtly different as well.

Tolkien wrote in Letters that he always envisioned his elves as artists first and foremost, and this is the difference I see between Aragorn and Eomer, and lacking in Boromir most prominantly; this "elvish" air.

I hope I haven't dragged this topic too far from its course, but it doesn't appear as though too many people are reading it anyway. :cry2:
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Postby Novice » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:31 am

I'm reading, I'm just not posting these days. :)

(waves to ArathornJax - you know me, you know...only, you know me as Impenitent)
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Postby Morwenna » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:08 pm

Hooray!! The thread lives!!
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Postby Bombadillo » Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:06 am

I'll be good and answer the questions now. :lol:

1. Aragorn was torn with indecision after the death of Boromir and several hours were wasted before they began to follow the orcs. Was this in character for the Aragorn that we know, and if so, why?
I believe it was in character because it showed how deeply and seriously Aragorn takes his responsibilities. A lot of leaders would have gone directly after the ring realizing that this was the key to the entire victory, not giving the other hobbits another thought. Aragorn realizes that Gandalf's selection of the hobbits to both carry the ring and to make up the bulk of the Fellowhip is because of reasons that cannot be accertained on the surface of the choice, and he takes his time trying to decipher the subtlties of Gandalf's mind and his choice to attempt to follow Gandalf's his wisdom.

2. Why might Aragorn have seen nothing from Amon Hen?
In my mind, it is simply a question of power. Gandalf was a wizard, Frodo had the ring. Those guys were loaded and could command an ancient power like the one that resided on Amon Hen. Aragorn has strength of arms, wisdom, and true leadership. That is not the same as the kind of power needed to move Amon Hen, however. Likewise, I don't think he would have had any success with the gate wardens that Frodo destroyed while fleeing with Sam after his capture. The ring was the difference.

3. Tolkien was developing Boromir’s character for several chapters prior to this one. What can we now tell about the character of Boromir from this chapter?
Already ansered this one above. :)

4. From a story-external point of view, this is a pivotal part of the book. The Fellowship divides and we move from a linear structure to the interlaced structure that has been discussed by several writers, including Shippey. Is the success with this device one of the main reasons why such a long story keeps the interest of the reader?
I think so, absolutely. Leaving Frodo and Sam in the lurch to continue with Aragorn and Gimli really sets up a perfect cliffhanger, and the feeling is the same when you shift back to Frodo and Sam. Masterfully done.

5. Was the death of Boromir inevitable in the Tolkien’s mind?
I don't think so. Judging from the way Tolkien wrote, especially after reading his Letters, I think he really wrote from the heart and would not put anything down until he was moved to do so. It's what lends his work such power, I think there was really very little that was intellectually designed and that is why it has such depth and sincerity.

6. The introduction of Éomer brings in a major new character to the story. Immediately, he has to make a decision as hard as the one Aragorn made in the previous chapter. Why does he choose to disobey his orders?
I think he disobeys because his noble nature leads him to realize that he is in front of other great people continuing the struggle which he knows in his heart to be true, and that that struggle is ultimately more important than any set of orders. His choice to "rise above the fray" by disobeying orders shows that Eomer is a powerful character and a great leader in his own right. Orders are indeed important for lesser characters, but for lords of great honor and strength, they can be put aside when needed, trusting in the honor of that leader to make the right choice. I think that is what Tolkien was trying to establish very early on with Eomer's character.
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Postby daniel johnston » Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:29 am

#1. No , the Aragorn we know is a quick witted ,fast moving ranger who is as well seasoned as they get not to mention his noble blood line. His next move made sense by going to save the hobbits from certain death. Also with Legolas by his side what he was able to see was more than what it had been if he had been without an elf's gift of foresite. As for his inability to call upon a ancient power it was never really an issue for him in the trilogy. Aragorn never allowed himself to become seduced by the power of the ring. This is a interlaced structure of a story with all the differnt charcters each one facing there own plight, with each one having its own theme: power, coruption, love, death, immortality. If you answer these questions based off the movies which is pj's projection of JRR Tolkien's work. A good one mind you! It takes away from your own creative interpitation of the actual story. Go off the book alone. I know this response is way late but it gave me something to think on. Yours, DJ
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