Axordil's Rhetorical Hash House and Diner

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Postby MariaHobbit » Fri Feb 07, 2003 7:21 am

<BR>Yayyyyyy! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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Postby Axordil » Fri Feb 07, 2003 9:29 am

Sharpefan--<BR><BR>Every country, it seems, has a region where the gene pool is thought a tad shallow by the others. So where's Canada's? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby Sharpefan » Sat Feb 08, 2003 2:00 pm

Thank you for the explanation, Jnyusa. I appreciate being let in on the joke.<BR><BR>Would I be betraying any national secrets to admit that poking fun at ourselves is probably our national pass-time? We make jokes about everyone. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> <BR><BR>Anyone from a 'remote' region is open to jokes about their family tree being a strait line - remote being everywhere except Toronto and Vancouver. All the atlantic areas and the prairies, as well as the northern territories and the Rockies, qualify. I do think, though, that the Alberta-Saskatchewan area gets the most ribbing here - those American TV shows just ruined farmers' reputations. <BR><BR>Sharpefan<BR><BR><BR>P.S. Is anyone else having trouble with the search function? It doesn't want to work for me.
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Postby MariaHobbit » Sat Feb 08, 2003 2:26 pm

<BR>The regular Search has been down for several weeks. You can use the front page search and still find most things. You just can't search by user name. I used to use that all the time to keep up with threads I was interested in, by searching my own name. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> Can't do that anymore. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> I miss it.<BR><BR>I live on a farm. Is my reputation ruined? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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Postby Jnyusa » Sat Feb 08, 2003 9:20 pm

MariaHobbit wrote:<BR> "I live on a farm. Is my reputation ruined?"<BR><BR>Noooooo! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> I grew up in a neighborhood in southern Ohio that was quite rural - our neighbors were sheep farmers - not to mention the original family homestead down in Kentucky which is now all soybean farms. When we go back to visit, all I do is complain about how strange the people on the East Coast are! Everyone is verrrry sympathetic.<BR><BR>But I do notice that the longer I live here, the odder the people in Ohio and Kentucky seem to become ... hmmmm <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Jn<BR><BR>edited for typo
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Postby Jnyusa » Sat Feb 08, 2003 11:25 pm

Axordil - <BR> I have a delicate question for you about the boards.<BR><BR> I visited the Bard's guild, and Erinhue has this concept where you have to 'buy the bard a beer' when you enter the thread. That's cute! - but when he opened the new thread it sounded as if there was a separate website for members of the guild, and he said something about 'now that all the checks have cleared,' and I wasn't sure if he was making a joke or if there is a registration payment for some of the guilds, like if they have a separate website or something like this.<BR><BR> Can you give me any information about this? Thanks <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> Jn
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Postby Star-of-Hope » Sun Feb 09, 2003 3:40 pm

hehe....I drop a bomb and go away for a few days...thats me <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>the Bards Guild has another website..calenrod, I think its called..<BR>a few guilds do, not many.<BR><BR>check Erinhue's sig there is normally a link to the site in it <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>anyone who has passed the Bards entry ABC's gets to put up their profile there.
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Postby Axordil » Mon Feb 10, 2003 11:20 am

Thanks, Star. That's a part of the boards I've never frequented, so I appreciate the info too.
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Postby Jnyusa » Mon Feb 10, 2003 12:13 pm

Thanks, Star (and Ax). I'll be bold and check it out. Jn
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Postby I-am-Tigger » Mon Feb 10, 2003 5:05 pm

Ax, how is that little martian growing?...kicking yet?..in training for that rugby ball?
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Postby Axordil » Tue Feb 11, 2003 8:45 am

No real kicking yet, but definitely some squirming. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby MariaHobbit » Tue Feb 11, 2003 2:13 pm

<BR>Hey, Ax.... I've got a question. I just started a probably controversial topic over in philosophy and since I'm not good at doing really long posts I just copied a longish article from a relevant website. Someone just replied in the "pick it apart line-by-line" method and kept say "you" and "your" like I actually wrote it.<BR><BR>Should I reemphasize that I didn't really write it, even though I agree pretty much on all the points?<BR><BR>I just grabbed one line out of the respondants post and responded to that, but I'm no good for super long line by line rebuttals. Should I just hide out and see what develops? Someone's bound to drop by and do the line-by-line right back at him. Am I obligated to finish what I started? <BR><BR>Do I need to wade in there with all I've got....Or is it OK just to snipe from the sidelines?<BR><BR><i>*....worry, worry, worry....*</i><BR><BR>
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Postby Axordil » Tue Feb 11, 2003 3:45 pm

Don't worry, it's just Tuor. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> Hi Tuor! <BR><BR>Seriously, you only need to respond to those points you think important. But now you know why I avoid those big cut and paste quotes--they lead to big cut and paste discussions.<BR><BR>I actually did a post in Word today, speaking of which--I was taking the list that Gorel supplied of signatories to the 1998 letter to Clinton on Iraq and annotating it with their right-wing credentials. So if you do go all cut and paste, do it in a word processor and paste it into a post. There's no good alternative at that level.<BR><BR>But yes, once you start something like that, you have an ethical obligation to discuss it for at least a bit, unless some other poster beats you to it. At least that's how I feel.
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Postby MariaHobbit » Tue Feb 11, 2003 6:23 pm

Yeah, Hi Tuor! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Well, I don't usually use the cut and paste method.... but when I was researching this, I came across this website that already had every point I was thinking about making already laid out, plus quite a few that I hadn't even thought of.<BR><BR>It would be kind of redundant to reword it all, just to make it mine. So I linked the site and pasted it onto the post for good measure. And gave credit to who wrote it.<BR><BR>And then started to panic, because I don't think I'm really up for a fight. <BR><BR>Oh. I don't have to fight, just because the other guy does! That's your teaching point here in this thread, isn't it Ax? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> Almost forgot there for a minute. <BR><BR>Thanks. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR><BR>
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Postby Axordil » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:32 am

Some of my favorite discussions have come about when I drop a paragraph from an aritcle into a thread and say "discuss." <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Jnyusa » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:37 am

Morning everyone! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> Morning is definitely better for posting. I had to give up posting anything serious the past couple days because of how long that wheely thing went round and round.<BR><BR>MariaHobbit - I saw your post in the Councils of Manwe and Tuor's reply. I thought the reply was overkill, and unecessarily personal given the tone of the post. Ax, Tuor did the same thing to you in that discussion about the Jews, didn't he? - reversed what you said and then attacked you for it.<BR><BR>What I have found - not just on the boards but in real life - is that it is easy to shout down one person speaking softly but not so easy to shout down a group of people talking softly and all agreeing with one another. <BR><BR>So I jumped in to back you up, just as a matter of principle, and I will keep watching the thread because the minute a poster starts saying 'you' this and 'you' that, the thread tends to deteriorate.<BR><BR>Deconstruction is a strategy. Once a context is broken, you can make it sound as if a person said the opposite of what they said. So I resist the temptation to do line-by-line rebuttals because this plays into the hands of the deconstructionist. Instead, I try to keep coming back to the main point and restating it, e.g. "nothing you have said changes the main point of ...." without actually quoting them. Quotes give them the chance to be heard twice.<BR><BR>You did a nice job, Ax, on that thread about the End of the World, deflecting a slightly lunatic thread with a bit of humor.<BR><BR>Jn <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR>
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Postby MariaHobbit » Wed Feb 12, 2003 9:04 am

<BR>Thanks for the analysis of deconstruction, Jnyusa. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> I've always hated it, but never really tried to figure out why. It was just a 'gut' reaction, but most of my 'gut' reactions are usually pretty good, so I've learned to trust them. When necessary I can analyse and justify them.... but they are usually accurate enough that I just go with it. I suspect that a whole lot of thinking gets done in my subconscious mind, and the gut reactions are the result.<BR><BR>That's why I had trouble starting that thread I did. I just knew that every time I heard something new about that issue, my skin would crawl and my mind would scream "This is wrong, wrong, WRONG". Posting someone else's analysis was the quickie way to get the thread going and now things are better, and I'm slowly figuring out how to say what I want to say.<BR><BR>
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Postby Axordil » Wed Feb 12, 2003 9:08 am

A specialty of mine. Glad you liked it. <BR><BR>Maria--hope I didn't embarass you with my dropping by. It looks like everyone has lightened up a tad. <BR><BR>One of the things I try to keep in mind when I'm in the midst of it is that I should never assume malice when ignorance will suffice, and never assume ignorance where a lack of communication will suffice. It's VERY easy to read something into a post that isn't there, or miss something that is...all we have here are the words and the smilies, and the conversational tone lulls many of us (me included) into laxness, in logic, grammar and rhetoric.<BR><BR>That's OK when we're talking, but it can lead to hard feelings fast in an argument. That's why I will shift gears in a thread, going for humor, if I think it's getting too tense for the wrong reasons. Everyone here that's worthwhile will take the hint and throttle back a bit.<BR><BR>On the other hand, I will sometimes challenge a poster in Philosophy, especially a newer one, if I think they're making a bad first impression. They either rise to it, or stop coming back to the forum. I've done this to people I agree with and disagree with, for selfish reasons. I don't want to argue with people who can't do it well enough to be fun, and I don't want people who aren't up to it to weaken my position by agreeing with me sloppily.<BR><BR>Thus endeth the lesson. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby Jnyusa » Wed Feb 12, 2003 3:27 pm

MariaHobbit -<BR> I thought your reply to the reply was very good - relevant, succinct. The thread has not deteriorated into a quoting match! And I see that people have some pretty strong feelings about religion! <BR><BR>Ax:<BR>"never assume malice when ignorance will suffice"<BR><BR>You should put that in your sig. It's a great quote!<BR><BR>"and never assume ignorance where a lack of communication will suffice."<BR><BR>Boy is that the truth. When I first started using email, it was to work on coalition building for the environmental movement. I thought every coalition was going to self-destruct because of the ranting over things that were clearly just ... not being able to show tone of voice in an email. There's a real art to choosing words so that connatation comes across as clearly as denotation. Intention ...!?! forget it. But I think the way governance is done on TORC is quite a model for this reality. It would be nice if some professor would study messageboard communication. That would be a neat dissertation, woulnd't it?<BR><BR>Jn<BR><BR>(p.s. I love these little off-topic discussions.)
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Postby MariaHobbit » Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:26 pm

<i>succinct</i>? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>You should have seen what I wrote before I posted that! A whole page on Word using the judo school example and showing all the varied ways I could misuse public funds if I wanted...... But I wasn't happy with it and then work suddenly got very busy. So I just deleted it and posted the first tenth of what I had to say.<BR><BR>Now it doesn't seem like a good idea anyway. <BR><BR>And, yes, people always have strong feelings about religion and politics. That's why the longest lived threads usually concern those topics. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Hey, do you think the emoticons help with the connotations that people want to convey in their messages? Is that their purpose?
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Postby Axordil » Thu Feb 13, 2003 8:38 am

It's all we have to work with; still, you have to be careful. Does a smiley mean you think something is funny, or that you're being sarcastic? Does it mean you want to be able to say something is funny when it isn't? It's not a substitute for listening to tone of voice and looking at a face--it's a metarhetorical tool. And I never met a rhetorical tool that couldn't be abused. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby MariaHobbit » Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:12 am

<BR>When I first started out on TORC, my teenage daughter was my "emoticon advisor". <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> She'd watch over my shoulder as I typed and say "You need a smiley here... and a rolly eyes there." It was rather amusing. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>There was a guy over in movies for a while who, when ever he quoted someone else, he put the quote in bold. I couldn't stand to read posts like that. Something about all that bold face type made either my monitor or my eyes go wonky. Quite difficult to focus. I just quit trying to read anything he posted. I thought about saying something... but it seemed rude, when I wasn't involved in the discussion- so I never did. But then, I couldn't stand to read enough to get involved.... kind of a catch 22 situation.<BR><BR>
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Postby Axordil » Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:39 am

<i>There was a guy over in movies for a while who, when ever he quoted someone else, he put the quote in bold.</i><BR><BR>I prefer italics, myself. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby Jnyusa » Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:34 pm

MariaHobbit - oooo, I owe you an even bigger apology than I owed Meriodoc and I'm too embarrassed to talk about it in the philosophy forum . <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif"border=0><BR><BR>You provided me with a wonderful excuse, but I cannot tell a lie. The sig pics do show on my screen (I don't know how to turn them on and off). But I center the text while I'm reading so that neither the flags nor the sig pics are showing. I should take my own advice and be more careful when reading people's replies. <BR><BR>What happened was that you and I had been having an ongoing conversation, and I scrolled down to the most recent reply, caught sight of the green flag going by with M in the name and just centered the text without looking carefully at the flag or scrolling down to the sig pic. Then I wondered why you were saying "Nonsense" to me, because that didn't sound like you at all !! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif"border=0> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif"border=0> The whole reply didn't sound like you. Ach! I should have realized there was a mistake ... all I can plead is impatience, sitting and waiting for things to load made me hasty.<BR><BR>So I am really sorry and quite embarrassed. And I will not confuse you with Meriadoc again! That's for sure.<BR><BR>I have some demographic date here at home about percentages of major religions in about 180 countries of the world. The data comes from the United Nations Demographic Survey and UNESCO surveys, but these in turn are derived from government censuses within the countries. In other words, they're imperfect, as most demographic data are. To make sense of the info in terms of world percentages I would have to do some numbers crunching - over the weekend, probably - but I'm wondering if people really want to hear that stuff, or whether it would just make me sound like a snotty professor? What would you advise?<BR><BR>Jn <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby MariaHobbit » Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 pm

<BR>That's OK, Jnyusa! It was an honest mistake. No hard feelings. The only reason I mentioned the sig pic thing was when I first started out on TORC, I had them turned off so everything would load faster. I figured you were doing the same thing.... and Merriadoc's sig pic is worth seeing. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> We seem to have so much in common, I was guessing you were doing the same thing!<BR><BR>And sure, put up the data if you want. I just embarrassed myself with a long personal story in that thread that I probably shouldn't have posted.<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-rolleyes.gif"border=0> People would probably be relieved to see facts instead of paranoia. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>I like italics for quotes, too, Ax. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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Postby MariaHobbit » Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:40 am

<BR>Well, I killed that thread, so I went back and edited out the "Too Much Information" on my part syndrome.<BR><BR>I'm bad about that, as you guys are probably aware of by now. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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Postby Axordil » Tue Feb 18, 2003 9:57 am

Often a quote and a link will do the trick, but sometimes you just gotta put the article in...I do that when I'm not sure how long it will be available.
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Postby MariaHobbit » Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:16 am

<BR>No, no, no..... I meant too much <i>personal</i> information about myself and/or family. It seems to be a conversation stopper in the Philosophy forum, when I try to illustrate my point with something that's happened in my life. I guess people think it would be construed as a personal attack to argue against a real life situation.<BR><BR>I guess. *<i>shrugs</i>*<BR><BR>Since I don't have dogma to fall back on, I have to rely on what I have experienced. I don't know how else to talk about things. If I know something to be true because of what I have experienced... I don't know of a better way to give it legitimacy than tell about the experience. <BR><BR>Oh, well.<BR><BR>
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Postby Jnyusa » Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:15 am

MariaHobbit -<BR><BR>I don't think it was your post that killed that thread. In some of the Manwe threads people talk about really personal stuff ... and it's not always done in an attractive manner <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-rolleyes.gif"border=0> but your post didn't seem too personal to me at all.<BR><BR>The reason I haven't been back to that thread is that I felt the next thing I had to say was about the data, and I haven't had time to assemble it. But when I get the information assembled I'll go back there and bump the thread.<BR><BR>Jn
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Postby Axordil » Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:45 pm

What Jnyusa said. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR>There is nothing wrong with illustrating a point with a personal experience, so long as you realize that others may have personal experiences that lead them other directions. <BR><BR>When people _don't_ understand this, they end up like W, who evidently figures if converting to evangelical Christianity saved him from booze, it can save everyone from everything...
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