Axordil's Rhetorical Hash House and Diner

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Postby MariaHobbit » Fri Oct 25, 2002 6:24 am

<BR>Mornin'. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> May I have some <i>hash</i> browns and scrambled eggs please? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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Postby Axordil » Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:40 am

Comin' right up!<BR><BR>Want some kim chi with that? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Actually, there's a little corner diner, transported through time straight from the '40s, not too far from me. Its Korean owners make breakfast AND a mean bulgogi. And kim chi, of course. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Have you looked at the still-smouldering Jew-Free Furniture thread? I am curious as to your take on the various methods of argumentation in use there, mine included.<BR><BR>pedagogical edit <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby MariaHobbit » Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:42 am

I don't know anything about kim chi. Except that some people say it smells bad.<BR><BR>Edit! You edited yours, while I was replying! OK, I'll go look. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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Postby MariaHobbit » Fri Oct 25, 2002 8:15 am

<BR><BR>Oooof! Major case of indigestion after reading that thread! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Things seem to be going round and round in circles. Kind of like a group of dogs in a fight. Snapping and snarling. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> You seem to be keeping things from getting too hostile, and kinda-sorta on track. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> But it's not pretty.<BR><BR>I haven't kept up enough with current events to really comment.<BR><BR>Maybe I'll think of something later.<BR><BR>I think I'll go have some Tums, now. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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Postby Axordil » Fri Oct 25, 2002 11:24 am

Don't think of it as circling--think of it as spiraling inwards towards an inexorable conclusion. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby MariaHobbit » Fri Oct 25, 2002 12:03 pm

<BR>Ah, but is it really spiraling inexorably? <BR>Did I just throw a monkey wrench in?<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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Postby MariaHobbit » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:17 am

<BR>I <i>told</i> you I killed threads. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><BR><BR>See, one post from me and it's dead, dead, dead! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-crying.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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Postby Axordil » Mon Oct 28, 2002 9:11 am

I suspect it was dying a natural death already. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> One thing I've noticed about the philosophy forum is that there are two classes of frequent posters: provacateurs (who like starting threads, and arguments) and riposters (who may start an argument _within_ a thread, or push it in another direction, but who generally don't start their own threads). <BR><BR>When a provacateur gets seriously trounced or outnumbered, they tend to stop posting in a thread. They will often go and start a new one, but the old one will fade away quickly without their responses. Sometimes, though, a thread will be "taken away" from the original poster by the way the arguement develops, and take on a life of its own. While purists may decry this, I find it fascinating and often productive to watch and to participate in.<BR><BR>At any rate, the thread that died with your post was one of the first kind, one that was depending on one person's posting (Aurandir's) to keep it going, especially after Nira and I (and perhaps TomC) found common ground, as I knew we would (from knowing what their views in general are like). So it's not your fault. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby MariaHobbit » Mon Oct 28, 2002 9:26 am

<BR>I wasn't really upset. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>But I have noticed that too hefty a dose of reality <i>can</i> be a conversation stopper.<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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Postby Axordil » Mon Oct 28, 2002 11:03 am

Some discussions spiral inwards towards a center, and others spiral outwards to goodness-knows-where. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby MariaHobbit » Mon Oct 28, 2002 1:47 pm

<BR>Oh, and I'm sorry that I completely ignored your request for analysis of the argument techniques used! I got caught up in the topic of the thread and didn't follow up on that. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif"border=0><BR><BR>I'm not a student of such things, so my observances would be uneducated, to say the least. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> <b>But</b>.....a while back I saw a link to webpage with a list of logical fallacies, and examples.... but I couldn't find it just now. That might be helpful. <i>However</i>, in the time that I was waiting for this page to come up (TORC is slow right now!) ..... I did a search and found quite a few lists of logical fallacies.<BR><BR>You might find them interesting:<BR><a target=new href="http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/fallacies.html">here's one</a><BR><a target=new href="http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/mgarcia/logic/1301Gong/chLogic.htm">and another</a><BR><a target=new href="http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~gmyers/esssa/rhetoric.html">and another</a><BR><a target=new href="http://occdevo.occ.cc.mi.us/moviepage/menustructure/cr/logicalfallacies.htm">another one</a><BR><a target=new href="http://locutus.ucr.edu/Classes/Thinking/Fallacies.html">and again</a><BR><BR>It's kind of scary that politicians, advertisers and such <i> study</i> these things, with the intent to use them on purpose!<BR>
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Postby Axordil » Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:10 pm

Well, they have to eat too. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Good links, by the way. I've used one or two of them myself...but some are new to me.
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Postby Axordil » Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:42 pm

Oh, BTW, I'll be on sabbatical from TORC in November--my annual month of focussing on my writing. I'll lurk a bit and check mail, but posting is doubtful. With luck I'll have my third novel well underway by the time December rolls around.
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Postby meneltarma » Sun Nov 17, 2002 8:36 am

Well have fun,we'll miss you!<BR>Have the other 2 been published yet?Have I heard of you?<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Axordil » Mon Dec 02, 2002 11:29 am

No, and no. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> But this too shall pass. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby MariaHobbit » Mon Dec 02, 2002 12:00 pm

<BR>Hello! Welcome back! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> Did you get a lot done?
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Postby meneltarma » Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:08 am

Tell us more about the books..I really admire you for being disciplined enough about your writing to actually take time off to work on your book.Such self discipline!<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Axordil » Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:42 am

Well, there are sample chapters out at www.axordil.com. Click on "interests" (there are two buttons, one chapter from each novel). The first one is the one I'm back into up to my elbows right now. The second one I'm still actively selling and will be for a while--another raft of queries and samples going out today, in fact.
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Postby MariaHobbit » Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:12 am

<BR>My computer doesn't like your second button. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> I can't read that sample chapter. I like the first one, though! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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Postby Star-of-Hope » Wed Dec 04, 2002 10:42 pm

They are BOTH wonderful...trust me.. I know what I am talking about <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Star, proof reader extraordinaire <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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Postby Axordil » Thu Dec 05, 2002 9:42 am

Maria--You've seen a better version of that one anyway. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Star--Flattery will get you a long long way, but not everywhere. For that you need naked adulation. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>smiley edit
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Postby MariaHobbit » Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:49 pm

<BR><i>Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh!</i> Duh. You'd think I couldn't count! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-rolleyes.gif"border=0> Three books, one still being written, one sample chapter that I <i>could</i> read...... leaves only your other book that you were already kind enough to let me read! Thank you again, by the way. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>If the other one is finished enough , I'd love to read it too! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> I like the way you write. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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Postby meneltarma » Fri Dec 06, 2002 6:00 am

I'm impressed!<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>Now hurry up and get all three published<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby Axordil » Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:33 pm

First I have to find an agent that isn't "made ill by the premise" of the better of the two...<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif"border=0>
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Postby MariaHobbit » Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:39 pm

<BR>Did someone actually say that? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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Postby meneltarma » Sun Dec 08, 2002 6:02 am

Ouch!
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Postby Axordil » Sun Dec 08, 2002 8:36 am

That's what she wrote.<BR><BR>Makes you wonder how Stephen King ever got published...or if the agent should be handling Hallmark cards and stories about fuzzy bunnies exclusively...<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-rolleyes.gif"border=0> On the other hand, I suppose having your agent barf on your manuscript all the time makes it difficult to do those lunches with editors...<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>smiley edit
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Postby MariaHobbit » Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:47 am

<BR>Well, it is a shocking idea. And by the time the second incident occurred, I was sort of in a "Oh, no... is the whole book gonna be like this?" <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> frame of mind. But I kept going, and even though the whole book <i>was</i> like that.... it was OK.... because you get interested in <i>why</i> the guy is doing what he's doing.<BR><BR>If you can just get someone to read the whole thing, you'll be set. It sounds like Ms. Agent quit after chapter one or two. If she even got that far. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-rolleyes.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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Postby I-am-Tigger » Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:24 pm

AX <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif"border=0><BR><BR>...<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><BR><BR>... does she think you need another plot going on parrallel to keep the readers atention?<BR>
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Postby Axordil » Wed Dec 11, 2002 8:26 am

Most agents don't offer any commentary at all, even the ones that read part of the manuscript. They just say "not for me" or some such and wish you luck. Sometimes they remind you that it's all quite subjective and that you should keep trying. <BR><BR>In this case, as with most submissions, the agent didn't have _any_ of the manuscript, just the query letter where I try to get one interested in seeing part of the manuscript. <BR><BR>Query letters are funny things. They have to be short--one page is an absolute maximum--but they have to get an agent interested. I'm actually happy with mine, as it has gotten several agents to ask for more, but this one reacted rather differently than most. So it goes. <BR><BR>
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